Did you ever wonder why?

quote:

Originally posted by luv baseball:
I have always been baffled by the concept that you can't assume a double play.

Two hopper to short and the 2B catches for the force and short hopes first with no advance and there is no error even if he had him by 2 steps.

The same play where he picks up a ground ball instead of taking a throw at the bag and it's E4.

Why would the assumption of a throw on a DP be any different than a throw on a ground ball? By that logic there would never be a throwing error if no one advanced even if the Batter reaches first. Just one of those things that's in the rules that's kind of odd.

When I’ve talked about that with people who are much more experienced than I, they say its because its not all 1 play like it is with a regular old ground ball. As much as people try to make everything that happens from the time a batter walks up to the plate until the time another does, all part of 1 play, that’s just not the way it works.

Here’s a small example of how things really work as opposed to how they sometime are depicted. Situation: 2nd batter of the game, no outs, runner on 1st got HBP on the 1st pitch of the game. Looking over the scorer’s shoulder, you’d see the line for the 1st batter with a line drawn from home to 1st, and HBP marked somehow showing how he got there.

Now it’s the 2nd pitch of the game, and the batter hits a hard grounder to short. F6 flips to F4 for the force, and F4 throws to F3 for the DP. What do you see when you look over the scorer’s shoulder again?
The truth is, there are a host of different ways to mark what just took place, but I’ll tell you how I used to do it when I scored with a pencil and a scorebook.

For the 1st batter, I’d draw a line from 1st halfway to 2nd, then put a line across it indicating he didn’t make it to 2nd. Then I’d write 6-4 showing why, and indicate which out it was, 1, 2, or 3, somewhere in the box. Then for the 2nd batter I’d write 4-3DP and indicate which out it was.

That way there’s no doubt there were different parts to the play. The 1st part was completed and done prior to the 2nd being started, but it had a direct bearing on the 2nd because the players involved did have the opportunity to attempt to get the batter at 1st directly, and that’s taken into account if the play attempting to get the batter at 1st isn’t made.

Yep I think that's the general logic to it but I still don't get why making a throw after you have clean control of the ball is an error on a grounder but not so just becasue F4 touched the bag first. If F4 tripped on the bag or was drilled by the sliding R1 then I get it. The whole "ordinary effort" component seems to be tossed out the window here for a reason that is tough to grasp.

quote:

Originally posted by luv baseball:
Yep I think that's the general logic to it but I still don't get why making a throw after you have clean control of the ball is an error on a grounder but not so just becasue F4 touched the bag first. If F4 tripped on the bag or was drilled by the sliding R1 then I get it. The whole "ordinary effort" component seems to be tossed out the window here for a reason that is tough to grasp.

Well, actually there’s nothing in OBR that say anything about not being able to “assume a double play”. What is says is, … any fielder who makes a wild throw in attempting to complete a double play or triple play, unless such wild throw enables any runner to advance beyond the base such runner would have reached had the throw not been wild;
Rule 10.12(d) Comment: When a fielder muffs a thrown ball that, if held, would have completed a double play or triple play, the official scorer shall charge an error to the fielder who drops the ball and credit an assist to the fielder who made the throw.…

As you can see, its entirely possible to have an error charged on what looks to be a DP, but only when the throw is a good one and would have put the runner out.

It is true I used the common phrasing about assuming a DP rather than the definition in the rules. As you point out on a DP the rules clearly state that no error gets charged on the throw no matter how awful it was if the runners don't advance. This is a clear exemption to the rule that would give an error on a fielded ground ball on the exact same throw.

My question is why? It is a non sensical thing that two throws exactly the same without any outside impact would have two differnt scoring results just because one is tha back end of a double play. It's not the end of the world but just one of those things that baseball has that makes me scratch my head.

quote:

Originally posted by luv baseball:
… My question is why? It is a non sensical thing that two throws exactly the same without any outside impact would have two differnt scoring results just because one is tha back end of a double play. It's not the end of the world but just one of those things that baseball has that makes me scratch my head.

Ahhh. Now that’s the million dollar question, and the way you asked it shows why things are done the way they are. There is an outside impact, and it’s the 1st part of the whole play, getting that 1st out. Once that happens, everything coming after it is incidental. If there’s a 2nd or 3rd out made, that’s fine, but that 1st out is really the driving force.

There’s just no way to take into account the effect all the things taking place to get that 1st out, could have on anything after. Say there’s a runner on 1st and a sharp ground ball hit up the middle F6 gets to easily, takes a step and steps on 2nd for the force, but then trips over the bag and heaves the ball into the dirt, allowing the batter to reach, but not go on to 2nd. Now change it to the runner from 1st wipes out F6 and the same thing happens. Now change it again to where F6 just makes a rotten throw and the same thing happens.

While it could be done, is it really worth the time and trouble to try to figure out if there’s any harm done or who should be blamed? After all, the defense is in much better shape than it was because while there’s still a runner on 1st, there’s one more out.

quote:

Originally posted by luv baseball:
Yep I think that's the general logic to it but I still don't get why making a throw after you have clean control of the ball is an error on a grounder but not so just becasue F4 touched the bag first. If F4 tripped on the bag or was drilled by the sliding R1 then I get it. The whole "ordinary effort" component seems to be tossed out the window here for a reason that is tough to grasp.

Stats - You're probably right and I accounted for that in an earlier post above. The same kind of thing applies on regular grounders. If a ground ball is fielded cleanly going to left but the fieder stumbled or maybe got tangled up around the bag he wouldn't be charged an error on a short hop throw to first as long as noone advances because of it. I just see it as an inconsistency in the rules even though an out was recorded a 2nd out was not. On any other play the failure to record an out with an unimpeded 90' throw is an error unless the runner just beats the rap. It isn't changing and only a scoring nerd like me would spend the time thinking about it anyway!

quote:

Originally posted by luv baseball:
Stats - You're probably right and I accounted for that in an earlier post above. The same kind of thing applies on regular grounders. If a ground ball is fielded cleanly going to left but the fieder stumbled or maybe got tangled up around the bag he wouldn't be charged an error on a short hop throw to first as long as noone advances because of it. I just see it as an inconsistency in the rules even though an out was recorded a 2nd out was not. On any other play the failure to record an out with an unimpeded 90' throw is an error unless the runner just beats the rap. It isn't changing and only a scoring nerd like me would spend the time thinking about it anyway!

It may seem like an inconsistency, but it really isn’t. The word “UNLESS” was used no less than 27 times in rule 10.00 alone, and that word notes an exception. In 10.12, which is what we’re discussing, they could have said”

(5) whose wild throw permits a runner to reach a base safely, when in the scorer’s judgment a good throw would have put out the runner, unless such wild throw is made attempting to prevent a stolen base, or unless the wild throw was made attempting to complete a double play or triple play, unless such wild throw enables any runner to advance beyond the base such runner would have reached had the throw not been wild;

But instead, they wrote an entire section titled: “(d) The official scorer shall not charge an error against:”, and listed the exceptions in it.

So what the problem is, isn’t inconsistency in what the rules say, but rather how they’re written. Remember, it’s a document over 150 years old, and its been modified many times by people in many different eras, so there are bound to be strange things come up. But look at the Bill of Rights and the laws of our country. They don’t look the same as when they were 1st put on paper for the reason, and I doubt that either would look the same if they were completely re-written in today’s world.