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2019Lefty21 posted:

My son is "graduating" to high school baseball this spring and 17U this summer. Seems to me that is also a place that parents need to "graduate" their thinking from what I call little league mentality to something more.  I have read many things about how parents overdo it with their kids and the recent thread of "gunning" a 9 year old. We are all NOT that way ! My son only plays baseball competitively now...no more soccer no more church basketball. All his choice. For those of you who think that is not good for a soon to be 15 year old, read this. "MLB has been tweeting videos of spring training BP and bull pens and I've watched every video just to listen to the sounds of baseball again "...that is from my son the day pitchers and catchers reported. My parents ask me all the time if he is "having fun playing baseball".....what do you think?  

Just be prepared for the possibility of your sons outlook to change dramatically.   Boys becoming men can move priorities of sports to cars or girls.    

Nothing like the feeling of "independence" when a young man can start driving on his own. 

The other side of that is he plays soccer on the weekends and also snowboards...things that scare me to death, but also his choice. I am well aware of the possibility of female or other change of plans...he's a good looking 6'2" 14 year old. Life has to happen at some point, just hoping we have provided proper guidance and wisdom. Have really worked hard to keep the GPA a priority as well....so far 3.725

2019Lefty21 posted:

My son is "graduating" to high school baseball this spring and 17U this summer. Seems to me that is also a place that parents need to "graduate" their thinking from what I call little league mentality to something more.  I have read many things about how parents overdo it with their kids and the recent thread of "gunning" a 9 year old. We are all NOT that way ! My son only plays baseball competitively now...no more soccer no more church basketball. All his choice. For those of you who think that is not good for a soon to be 15 year old, read this. "MLB has been tweeting videos of spring training BP and bull pens and I've watched every video just to listen to the sounds of baseball again "...that is from my son the day pitchers and catchers reported. My parents ask me all the time if he is "having fun playing baseball".....what do you think?  

2019, it is different strokes for different folks and I agree that HS would be a great time for parents to do some growing up.  There are fanaticals in any sub-group of people, baseball parents can be extreme in both directions.  Do you as a parent say "I have zero control over what the coach does with my kid that is HIS call"...or do you say "I think I need to educate the coach on exactly how his batting order should be and where my kid should be playing"?  Hopefully by high school there is more of the first and less of the latter with the dose of reality that if it affects my child's health I will speak up, and I don't care who you are! 

The real battle is becoming educated on what will affect a kids health, and this board is great for that.  One sport, or multiple sport...that's been played out on here.  Typical rest periods and exercises to be done between mound times...also very good information on here.  Playing travel and High School at the same time...also been discussed.  Places to attend, what organizations are reputable...also discussed at length. 

I think my hope for high school baseball, which will also be next year, is that parents in general are more educated about what their role should be regarding their child's baseball team.

CaCO3Girl posted:

I think my hope for high school baseball, which will also be next year, is that parents in general are more educated about what their role should be regarding their child's baseball team.

Yeah, I remember having that same hope, once upon a time.  :-)  Let's just say I wouldn't get my hopes up too much.  But, I really hope you get your wish.  If not, you can always set your lawn chair up down one of the outfield lines.  The view's pretty good from out there, and it's a lot more peaceful.  

Parents - beware of the Fumes.  Perfume and Exhaust.  Both have amazing pull to 15 year old eyes and brains etc.

Do not underestimate Friends either.   If you son is still hanging out with kids he has known since Kindergarten and they are not athletic he can find himself exposed to almost anything.  Especially if they have older siblings.

As far as picking a single sport - if I had to do over again I would encourage my son to play anything and as many of them except football.  Football makes sense only if you have scholarship level athletic ability and the brains to match so that you can reasonably expect to cash in a scholarship with a College degree.  Or you have what it takes to make the NFL.

luv baseball posted:

Parents - beware of the Fumes.  Perfume and Exhaust.  Both have amazing pull to 15 year old eyes and brains etc.

Do not underestimate Friends either.   If you son is still hanging out with kids he has known since Kindergarten and they are not athletic he can find himself exposed to almost anything.  Especially if they have older siblings.

As far as picking a single sport - if I had to do over again I would encourage my son to play anything and as many of them except football.  Football makes sense only if you have scholarship level athletic ability and the brains to match so that you can reasonably expect to cash in a scholarship with a College degree.  Or you have what it takes to make the NFL.

What am I to beware of?  and not underestimate?

"Son, get in the car!  stop looking at women, cars and friends!  That could lead to dating, driving and role models for people that plan to get real jobs!"

Last edited by Go44dad
Go44dad posted:
luv baseball posted:

Parents - beware of the Fumes.  Perfume and Exhaust.  Both have amazing pull to 15 year old eyes and brains etc.

Do not underestimate Friends either.   If you son is still hanging out with kids he has known since Kindergarten and they are not athletic he can find himself exposed to almost anything.  Especially if they have older siblings.

As far as picking a single sport - if I had to do over again I would encourage my son to play anything and as many of them except football.  Football makes sense only if you have scholarship level athletic ability and the brains to match so that you can reasonably expect to cash in a scholarship with a College degree.  Or you have what it takes to make the NFL.

What am I to beware of?  and not underestimate?

"Son, get in the car!  stop looking at women, cars and friends!  That could lead to dating, driving and role models for people that plan to get real jobs!"

Well you can take a simplistic and sarcastic view like that - or in the context of the string realize that the point is that there are a number of distractions that can lead to bad choices that young men are famous for - so beware of them and do not underestimate the temptation. 

Dropping baseball (or sports) is the least of the problems at that point - but the change in priorities might tell you something but who gives a damn.  Wine, women and song is the way to go. 

Butthead friends, bad girl(boy)friends and driving too fast (not to mention drunk or high) have wrecked a lot of teenage lives.  I am not making that up ...I swear ....but I suppose there's nothing to worry about.  Let's turn'em loose and run wild in the streets.  Let the chips fall where they may is a much better plan than being engaged in what is going on in their lives. 

Not sure how old your kid is - but if he brings home the girl that is a nightmare or his buds turn to the bud, pills and/or booze and their 18 year old brother is the HS dealer it can be very rough.  You should be ready for everything you hoped your son could be to suddenly be on the edge of going down the drain.  It can happen fast - 60 days in the summer is all it takes and it is hard to unwind. 

 

bballdad2016 posted:

Some of you should read LUV BASEBALL's post for what it is without reading into it.  He may actually be sharing personal experiences....

OK, and I may be sharing mine also.  In the context of "different strokes for different folks", my eyes are open.  I wasn't born when I created a logon id for this site.  Your not going to prevent "fumes and friends" by locking your kid away from them.

Don't take short for simplistic or sarcastic.  Your not the only person with life experiences.

ok, with civility and less the sarcasm....

In context of the thread, with regards to "fumes, friends and older siblings", and beyond awareness of,  what are you suggesting other parents do?  

My point is you cannot lock a child in a room while he is turning into a man and keep him away from life's "perils" of cars, women and other influences ("friends, older siblings")  

ok, with civility and less the sarcasm....

In context of the thread, with regards to "fumes, friends and older siblings", and beyond awareness of,  what are you suggesting other parents do?  

My point is you cannot lock a child in a room while he is turning into a man and keep him away from life's "perils" of cars, women and other influences ("friends, older siblings")  

((I'll cop to the sarcasm))

Go44dad posted:

ok, with civility and less the sarcasm....

In context of the thread, with regards to "fumes, friends and older siblings", and beyond awareness of,  what are you suggesting other parents do?  

My point is you cannot lock a child in a room while he is turning into a man and keep him away from life's "perils" of cars, women and other influences ("friends, older siblings")  

((I'll cop to the sarcasm))

Agreed! Personally, I try to show my son examples of good and not so good decision-making. The point that I really try to drive home is that ALL (not most) of your decisions should line up with you desired outcome(s) in life...and one bad decision can overtake a whole lots of good ones. But at the end of the day, I can't choose for him and I am at peace with that...and most importantly, the fact that the Good Lord will hear my fatherly prayers as well. 

hshuler posted:

Agreed! Personally, I try to show my son examples of good and not so good decision-making. The point that I really try to drive home is that ALL (not most) of your decisions should line up with you desired outcome(s) in life...and one bad decision can overtake a whole lots of good ones. But at the end of the day, I can't choose for him and I am at peace with that...and most importantly, the fact that the Good Lord will hear my fatherly prayers as well. 

You are a better person than I will ever be.  I grudgingly accept that in the end it is my children's choices that will turn them into the adults they are going to be...I don't have to like it or be at peace with it. 

A promising young local athlete had a scholarship lined up to a dream school and it all ended because he thought it would be hilarious to ask a girl to the prom by hanging a sign around a goats head that said "Will you GOAT with me to the prom?"...the owner of the goat didn't appreciate the goat being "borrowed" for the night.  Raise your hand if this sounds like something your kid might consider as funny, harmless, and would never for one moment think it would cost him his future?

Go44dad posted:

ok, with civility and less the sarcasm....

In context of the thread, with regards to "fumes, friends and older siblings", and beyond awareness of,  what are you suggesting other parents do?  

My point is you cannot lock a child in a room while he is turning into a man and keep him away from life's "perils" of cars, women and other influences ("friends, older siblings")  

((I'll cop to the sarcasm))

I was trying to express for those that have yet to have a son reach 14/15/16 that what ever you have done until now double it from a paying attention standpoint.  Be ready to fight some hard battles if bad decisions occur.  Don't blink, it can and will change in as little as couple of extended business trips.  Be a team with your spouse and talk to them about what is necessary.  Follow through.

Prepare - you cannot talk to them enough about choices good and bad in the 11 to 14 range.  Give advice and let them make a few decisions and discuss the outcomes.  Credibility as a parent comes from being right about stuff - not "Because I said so".  Warn of negative outcomes and let them stub their toe and deal with it.  Your chances of them listening when they are older are better - not perfect ...just better.

Prevention:  I had the option to send my kids to work for my parents 700 miles away but gave into whining about "being with my friends for the summer".  HUGE MISTAKE.  That much free time was a disaster.  Find a way to fill it up or get them out of there if you have that choice.  This is HS sports biggest value - chews up time with generally positive activity.

Disaster Happens:  Now it is "Because I said so" time.  Consider Private schools.  Insist Cell phones are answered.  Take them away if they are not.  Do not allow significant car access, unaccounted for time outside the house and limit cash almost at any cost.  Do not buy I am going to Tim's house and I'll be back at 9 - until they prove they actually go to Tim's house and

1 hour in a car = 50 or more miles.  That can take you from the far out suburbs of almost any city to the red light district.  Fight the battle for communications, mobility and money.  Find a way into Facebook etc.  In my case redistricting because of new school blew up my kid half way through HS.  All his friends that were good kids were left at old school.  New Friends raised hairs on first meeting.  Later a girl hanging out with this crew just compounded the problems.  In hindsight doing step 1 & 2 better and sending to a Private would have been worth the pain. 

What you then hope for is that in a worst case - they hate you so much that they head for the door at 18.  You hope and pray they make it or that they come back humbled at 19 or 20 ready to fix their lives. 

The absolute worst case - You own a funeral. 

Sorry if I was overly sarcastic in return - been guilty of it before. 

Sorry to all if I high-jacked the thread - not intended.

Thanks.....I'm working backwards on your list.  I have already had the funeral, I have been raising my son alone for last nine years.  I've worked hard on prepare and prevention. I'm aware of disaster happens.  I'm not sure how the story will end, I just hope the pages turn slowly.

On the "facebook" (which I take as an example of all social media).  I cannot "out technology" my son.  I don't monitor his usage.  We are not there yet on a vehicle.  If he is as slick as I was, he would know how to disconnect/connect the odometer.  You (in the general sense, not you particularly) can only out maneuver your son for so long, if he has the will, he will eventually shut you out if the "monitoring" continues.  

 

Go44dad posted:

Thanks.....I'm working backwards on your list.  I have already had the funeral, I have been raising my son alone for last nine years.  I've worked hard on prepare and prevention. I'm aware of disaster happens.  I'm not sure how the story will end, I just hope the pages turn slowly.

On the "facebook" (which I take as an example of all social media).  I cannot "out technology" my son.  I don't monitor his usage.  We are not there yet on a vehicle.  If he is as slick as I was, he would know how to disconnect/connect the odometer.  You (in the general sense, not you particularly) can only out maneuver your son for so long, if he has the will, he will eventually shut you out if the "monitoring" continues.  

 

Truly sorry to hear that.  Worst thing there is.

Kids are very slippery when they want to be.  Sadly if I had it to do over again things like Location devices in engines and drones might be hardware to consider going forward.

Monitoring is a balance act.  Act right for a certain period of time and then give a little.  Break trust and then that must have consequence.  What motivates any specific kid will probably be different - phone access, video games, car time etc.  Find the thing with worth to them and don't make empty threats.  If you say you will take it for 3 days - take it for 3 days.  Don't add to it and don't subtract.  Consistency has value.

As you note the risk is they bail out anyway.  Not an easy balancing act.  When you have one that "sails" through without any major issues and all you have is a few grade or lateness problems that go away when challenged, it is a mixture of relief and joy.

Fight the good fight.

CaCO3Girl posted:
2019Lefty21 posted:

My son is "graduating" to high school baseball this spring and 17U this summer. Seems to me that is also a place that parents need to "graduate" their thinking from what I call little league mentality to something more.  I have read many things about how parents overdo it with their kids and the recent thread of "gunning" a 9 year old. We are all NOT that way ! My son only plays baseball competitively now...no more soccer no more church basketball. All his choice. For those of you who think that is not good for a soon to be 15 year old, read this. "MLB has been tweeting videos of spring training BP and bull pens and I've watched every video just to listen to the sounds of baseball again "...that is from my son the day pitchers and catchers reported. My parents ask me all the time if he is "having fun playing baseball".....what do you think?  

2019, it is different strokes for different folks and I agree that HS would be a great time for parents to do some growing up.  There are fanaticals in any sub-group of people, baseball parents can be extreme in both directions.  Do you as a parent say "I have zero control over what the coach does with my kid that is HIS call"...or do you say "I think I need to educate the coach on exactly how his batting order should be and where my kid should be playing"?  Hopefully by high school there is more of the first and less of the latter with the dose of reality that if it affects my child's health I will speak up, and I don't care who you are! 

The real battle is becoming educated on what will affect a kids health, and this board is great for that.  One sport, or multiple sport...that's been played out on here.  Typical rest periods and exercises to be done between mound times...also very good information on here.  Playing travel and High School at the same time...also been discussed.  Places to attend, what organizations are reputable...also discussed at length. 

I think my hope for high school baseball, which will also be next year, is that parents in general are more educated about what their role should be regarding their child's baseball team.

What you're going to see in high school is the parents of recent 14u studs miffed their son didn't make varsity. Practice you're "uh huhs." And plan your escape route when you arrive at the park. 

Go44dad posted:

ok, with civility and less the sarcasm....

In context of the thread, with regards to "fumes, friends and older siblings", and beyond awareness of,  what are you suggesting other parents do?  

My point is you cannot lock a child in a room while he is turning into a man and keep him away from life's "perils" of cars, women and other influences ("friends, older siblings")  

You do the best Job raising and influencing your kids up to about age fourteen. About that point you start losing control due to their freedom. You have to hope what you taught them sank in. 

I gave my kids one important piece of advice in high school ... If you think you may be some place you shouldn't chances are you're right. Leave.

When my kids were in high school I told them who the drug users were. They were shocked how accurate is was. They asked how I knew. I watched how they behaved when they were twelve to fourteen. I weighed that against how they were handled by their parents.

My son and a bunch of friends were caught drinking at a New Years Party when they were twelve. The girls talked the boys into securing alcohol. My son was given the harshest discipline. Alcohol was never a problem in high school. The kid who received zero discipline was arrested in high school for being a drug dealer. 

Last edited by RJM
RJM posted:
CaCO3Girl posted

What you're going to see in high school is the parents of recent 14u studs miffed their son didn't make varsity. Practice you're "uh huhs." And plan your escape route when you arrive at the park. 

Well, since it is a 6A school surrounded by very well known 17u national power houses one would HOPE parents would be thrilled by their son making the JV team, I would be! 

RJM posted:

What you're going to see in high school is the parents of recent 14u studs miffed their son didn't make varsity. Practice you're "uh huhs." And plan your escape route when you arrive at the park. 

That's not a problem at our local HS.  The current varsity coach doesn't even consider freshman for varsity.  If you're a freshman you'll be on the JV team if you survive tryouts.

We knew of one that actually transferred to another school because he didn't make varsity as a freshman.  The transfer was contested and he sat for most of his sophomore year while it was settled.

RJM posted:
CaCO3Girl posted:
2019Lefty21 posted:

My son is "graduating" to high school baseball this spring and 17U this summer. Seems to me that is also a place that parents need to "graduate" their thinking from what I call little league mentality to something more.  I have read many things about how parents overdo it with their kids and the recent thread of "gunning" a 9 year old. We are all NOT that way ! My son only plays baseball competitively now...no more soccer no more church basketball. All his choice. For those of you who think that is not good for a soon to be 15 year old, read this. "MLB has been tweeting videos of spring training BP and bull pens and I've watched every video just to listen to the sounds of baseball again "...that is from my son the day pitchers and catchers reported. My parents ask me all the time if he is "having fun playing baseball".....what do you think?  

2019, it is different strokes for different folks and I agree that HS would be a great time for parents to do some growing up.  There are fanaticals in any sub-group of people, baseball parents can be extreme in both directions.  Do you as a parent say "I have zero control over what the coach does with my kid that is HIS call"...or do you say "I think I need to educate the coach on exactly how his batting order should be and where my kid should be playing"?  Hopefully by high school there is more of the first and less of the latter with the dose of reality that if it affects my child's health I will speak up, and I don't care who you are! 

The real battle is becoming educated on what will affect a kids health, and this board is great for that.  One sport, or multiple sport...that's been played out on here.  Typical rest periods and exercises to be done between mound times...also very good information on here.  Playing travel and High School at the same time...also been discussed.  Places to attend, what organizations are reputable...also discussed at length. 

I think my hope for high school baseball, which will also be next year, is that parents in general are more educated about what their role should be regarding their child's baseball team.

What you're going to see in high school is the parents of recent 14u studs miffed their son didn't make varsity. Practice you're "uh huhs." And plan your escape route when you arrive at the park. 

If it's one thing I don't teach my kid, it's entitlement. He will end up where he deserves to be.

His high school is at the highest level (7A) in one of the most competitive counties in the country so he'll be fortunate to make the 9th grade team. JV would be a very long shot since no freshman made the JV team this year, much less varsity. 

I never understood why people care so much what level their kid plays at as a frosh or soph.  If he plays freshman next year he will be a main cog in the wheel!  If he plays JV he will fit right in and will play vs. Better competition.   Very doubtful he would play varsity as it is a very very good program.  Why would I want him to sit the bench? 

2020dad posted:

I never understood why people care so much what level their kid plays at as a frosh or soph.  If he plays freshman next year he will be a main cog in the wheel!  If he plays JV he will fit right in and will play vs. Better competition.   Very doubtful he would play varsity as it is a very very good program.  Why would I want him to sit the bench? 

This is another one of those careful what you wish for deals too.  Your stud 14/15 year old rising sophomore gets promoted to the varsity in the summer.  Whoooohooo!  

You go to the first scrimmage 3 days later and see the varsity kids for the first time.  Your boy rips 3 bullets on his way to a 2-3, 3 RBI game with a couple of decent defensive plays.  Whoooohooo!  He looks like a natural and fits in with the other players.  After the game he says he's going to get a ride home with the guys.  He's on his way now. 

Three days after that you are at the 7-11 and you see the Star Sr. player, who was driving that car home from the game.  He is at the counter buying rolling papers.   Uhhhhhh....  OHHHH NOOOOO!

 

luv baseball posted:
2020dad posted:

I never understood why people care so much what level their kid plays at as a frosh or soph.  If he plays freshman next year he will be a main cog in the wheel!  If he plays JV he will fit right in and will play vs. Better competition.   Very doubtful he would play varsity as it is a very very good program.  Why would I want him to sit the bench? 

This is another one of those careful what you wish for deals too.  Your stud 14/15 year old rising sophomore gets promoted to the varsity in the summer.  Whoooohooo!  

You go to the first scrimmage 3 days later and see the varsity kids for the first time.  Your boy rips 3 bullets on his way to a 2-3, 3 RBI game with a couple of decent defensive plays.  Whoooohooo!  He looks like a natural and fits in with the other players.  After the game he says he's going to get a ride home with the guys.  He's on his way now. 

Three days after that you are at the 7-11 and you see the Star Sr. player, who was driving that car home from the game.  He is at the counter buying rolling papers.   Uhhhhhh....  OHHHH NOOOOO!

 

that's a funny (kind of) story.  experience the same sort of issue when my son went from 8th grade to varsity football as a 9th grader.    they grow up fast that way.    Luckily his older brother was a senior on the team.  Seriously though- I looked at it as a good thing.  He came through it fine, made the right choices, and gained confidence in himself along the way.  Can't shield them from reality forever.

 

 

I really don't think there is one formula on how to do this.  Every kid is different and will respond to consequences differently.  My father was very tough on me and I responded by rebelling and getting into a lot of trouble.  Maybe I would have done that without the strictness, but I know it didn't work with me.  I tried not to be overly strict with my kids.  Maybe i was too soft, but they are 22 and 20 now and pretty good, well adjusted kids.  22 is a senior in college and playing D2 baseball.  20 year old is a sophomore in college and seems to have things pretty well together.  

I think I may have a little more unique position on some of this.  My older son played baseball and has been his life since he was 7 years old.  He has made lifelong friends and many of his teammates will be his brothers for life.  Now that he is in college and away from home, his teammates are his friends.  However, growing up, his teammates were not his best friends.  He had a group of guys that he grew up with since as long as he could remember.  None of them were baseball guys.  Most were athletes through HS.  When he wasn't playing baseball, these were the guys he spent time with.  Personally, I thought it was good for him.  It prevented burnout.  He spent so much time - like most of our kids - either at practice, driving to tournaments, playing in tournaments, going to private lessons, etc... - that it was good for him to spend free time doing what "normal" kids did - away from his sport.  This was his way to kind of be a normal kid and not just a baseball kid 24/7.  Maybe I'm wrong, but I know as a 22 year old senior college baseball player, he still loves the game.  I think the separation thing had a lot to do with that.

I'll also share that when he was a freshman in HS, he pitched for the varsity team.  Yes, it was somewhat of a shock in terms of behavior and language, but he dealt with it pretty well.  Of course he received his share of getting picked on and taking on the mundane baseball chores that the upperclassmen didn't want to do, but he took it all in stride and came out the other side.  I think if we prepare the kids to make good decisions, how to have self-confidence, how to have a thick skin, how to joke around and give it as much as it is given, then they should be ok.  

Did my boys made some bad decisions?  yeah.  Did they get in a little trouble here and there?  yeah.  But nothing life shattering.  Nothing that will have long lasting consequences.  I am proud of both of them.  I think they've turned into very respectable, nice young men...

Shoveit4Ks posted:

We all know those "non-athletic" kids and their older siblings are the root of all evil....that right there is pathetic. 

Sarcasm as discussion again.  I will amplify and clarify my post since I now realize it might require a smidge of thought and imagination that I should refrain from the assumption is shared by everyone.

The majority of the kids not playing sports or related activities like or band, Cheerleading, Pep Clubs etc. really don't do a lot with their time.  A little except from real research on the subject:

High school athletes are more likely than non-athletes to attend college and get degrees; team captains, MVPs achieve in school at even higher rates (US Dept. of Education, 2005). The benefits extend to the workplace. A survey of 400 female corporate executives found 94% played a sport and that 61% say that has contributed to their career success (EY Women Athletes Business Network/espnW, 2014).

Social/Psychological Benefits

A number of studies provide support for the premise that physical activity, and sports in particular, can positively affect aspects of personal development among young people, such as self-esteem, goal-setting, and leadership. However, evidence indicates that the quality of coaching is a key factor in maximizing positive effects (GAO, 2012).

Compared to non-athlete peers, female high school athletes are less likely to be sexually active, to use drugs, and to suffer from depression (Women's Sports Foundation, 2004). A correlation has been found between regular exercise and mental health among students in general as they move into the teenage years. Among students who exercised 6 to 7 days a week, 25.1% felt sad for two weeks or more in the past 12 months, compared to 35.7% of students who reported exercising on 0 to 1 day. Of students who exercised 6-7 days, 15% reported suicidal ideation, and 6.4% reported a suicide attempt in the past year, compared to 24.6% and 10.3% of students who exercised 0-1 day, respectively (Journal of American Academy of Child & Adolescent Psychiatry, 2015). 

As the old proverb goes "Idle hands are the Devils workshop".  So yes - kids just hanging out could be described as the "Root of all Evil".  They are a group that is more likely to accomplish less in life not to mention use drugs & alcohol.  Older siblings who act similarly are both role models and access.  To simplify for Shovel and those that might require it:  Think along the lines of "It runs in the family" or "Monkey see Monkey do." A little more real research on this subject:

In the aftermath of the bombings in Boston many of us have been thinking a lot about siblings — particularly how older siblings can shape the lives of younger siblings. But until pretty recently, the role siblings play in determining the trajectory of each other's lives hasn't been a particularly hot topic in psychological research. Psychologists, very understandably, have focused on the influences they see as more important — such as parents and peers and genetics.

But in the past decade that's been changing a bit. Psychologists interested in how siblings affect one another are taking a new look at all kinds of behavior, particularly anti-social behavior.

Consider, for example, the research that looks at how much a parent who smokes influences his child to smoke, versus the degree to which an older sibling who smokes influences a younger sibling.

"Both can have an effect, but in a lot of studies they've found that the effect 'older sibling smoking' has is greater than the effect that 'parental smoking' has," Rende says.

It's the opposite of what many people assumed, he says. Older siblings are more influential.

As part of his research, Rende gives sibling pairs electronic devices like cellphones that, every half hour, prompt both siblings to report what they're doing. Through such reports you can actually see each one ghosting the other's behavior, he says.

"When one sibling is smoking — in real time [we see] they're having a cigarette, and the other sibling is very likely to report smoking at the same time."

In fact, when one sibling is a smoker, the other is 25 percent more likely to smoke. With drinking the risk is even higher; a person is 36 percent more likely to drink if a sibling does.

Rende, by the way, believes that the reverse is also true. Good behavior in older siblings can be as contagious as bad. It just seems that — particularly when families are struggling — the fate of the kids is more tethered to their siblings than we originally thought. For good and, apparently, for bad.

This is not the only place that drugs or alcohol use exists which I note above in my post about 7-11.  You don't have to be exposed to too many HS kids to realize if their time is filled with something productive the risk diminishes significantly. 

I abbreviated in my earlier post to spare the lengthy detailed explanation (presumably unnecessary due to blatant obviousness) : sports as activity, friends and their siblings do matter. 

Shovel - If you were trolling and got me to bite and waste 30 minutes on responding - good on you.  I come to this site to avoid that stuff but maybe it is changing.  If you were serious - and to use your word - that is pathetic stuff out of you on a serious topic.  You should be ashamed.

Luv, I understand what you are saying, but I will also point out that often times older siblings wind up setting a negative example that younger siblings learn from and consequently try to stay away from.  I saw it in my family growing up. And I have seen and heard it expressed many times from people I know.  Comments such as "I saw what drugs did to my older brother and I made the decision to stay away from that".  I know my siblings saw the things I did and the trouble I got into and they have all told me that my negative behavior influenced them to NOT do the things I did.  And, not to get political, I have heard Donald Trump tell his story about how his older brother Fred was a big drinker and smoker and died as a result of it.  Trump has never drank or smoked as a result of seeing the negative consequences of that lifestyle of his older brother.

Some of the kids my son hung out with turned into not very good people to emulate.  He recognizes that and does not emulate that behavior and acknowledges that they are "stupid" for doing the things they do.  He'll still see some of them when he's back from school since they are lifelong friends, but knows that they do not make good decisions and definitely does not let their behavior influence him.

Once again, it absolutely depends on the person.  Some people may tend to follow more, some may tend to be their own person.  Get to know your kid.  Know what influences them and come up with a plan.  And if you have more than one kid, the plan will most likely be different for each...

BBallman - Agree with that - My brother died drunk driving a motorcycle.  I vowed that would never happen to me.  But I was 2+ years older and he saw me pounding beer at 17 when he was 15.  I have lived a long time wondering if I contributed to his death. 

Not trying to state any absolutes.  Just how scales tip.  Vegas gets rich on the odds.  How many 5'10" Dads have 6'4" sons.  Enough to know that it is a crap shoot and there are exceptions but chances are more likely that he'll be 5'11 or 6'.

 

I think some of you live in a completely different reality than mine. In our area, a lot of those 14 and 15 year olds can teach the seniors a thing or two about illicit behavior. The biggest party thrown so far this school year has been by Sophomores. It got a good portion of the winter varsity athletes suspended from their sport and was attended by kids from every grade. The reality is, whatever kids say in the dugout is being said in school too - in the hallways, in the lunch room, in the locker room, etc. I have a senior girl, so there have always been older kids around my son. Some of them are pot smokers and most are drinkers. But, a lot of kids in my son's class are also pot smokers and drinkers and they have been since middle school. Even the athletes get "turnt up" on the weekends. It's pretty easy to figure out where kids fit by a quick look at their social media accounts. Kids these days put everything on social media and then can't figure out how school security knows what they've been up to. Another eye opener is to find out how many students in your high school have kids. Our school has a nursery and preschool, and it's not just the Seniors having kids

My son played varsity as a Freshman. He was part-time during Spring and then full time varsity in the summer. He didn't really face any razzing from the older kids, but he knew most of them through his older sister. The kids on varsity are actually better influences than the kids on the Freshmen and JV teams. 

bballdad2016 posted:

Having been a HS Coach, I can tell you that the chatter and conversation is much different between the JV and V dugout.  There are some things 14 year old boys just don't need to hear yet. 

If a kid is in high school whatever he might hear in the dugout he's also going to hear in the cafeteria and on the bus. In our district the middle and high school kids ride the same bus. My daughter was offered a joint when she was in 6th grade. How you raise your kids allows them to make the right decisions.

i was going to report the kid the next day. By the time I had a chance to go by the school she had been suspended. She had made the offer to others. She was caught getting high in the woods behind the football stadium.

When I coached 18u Gold softball I heard things I didn't want to hear. Was I supposed to tell my daughter, "I'm going to impede your track to college ball. As a freshman you're too young to hear what the older girls discuss."

Last edited by RJM

Luv, i dont troll. Plenty of HS athletes and college athletes waste time and participate in those other activities while holding to their schedules, i can only imagine how they would be if they weren't participating. I get the idle hands thing, not all kids are perfect and every generation has the heads, hippies or druggies/partiers. i often see the most sheltered ones (athletes or whatever) off the rails when they finally get their freedom...in other words, when they leave home where their parents control their lives. We chose to let our kids live and experience life so that when they are adults and out of our house, they can function and not be afraid to live.

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