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Welcome to the HSBBW and congratulations to your son.
What you have posed is a tough question and the decisions your son might make are not easy.
Some reasons for a walk-on offer and no money:
1. The coaching staff may really want your son but have fully committed the money for 2012/2013;
2. They really want your son, have money, but are gambling your son won't get an offer with money, or will turn it down for a dream school situation;
3. They have money but are uncertain about your son, see things they like, see late development that makes them uncertain, and want to provide a walk-on opportunity to see how far your son can develop and whether and when he might contribute.
Amongst these 3, they all suggest the staff wants your son. BOF posted this yesterday and it is so true: there are no guarantees in college baseball. The best play. I think you and your son need to try and understand how much this staff wants him and what they see he can do. A scholarship offer may or may not be important as part of that process.
Good luck.
I guess a couple things are primary in your case. Is the dream school affordable to you without the scholly money? Infield covers almost everything I can think of for the walk on offer with no $ at this point. If they are a high level program they may have money already offered to one of their top of the list guys and are waiting on a decision. If that player chooses another school that $ could end up available for you but they want your son's commitment.
Second thing, and I'm interested in this very much....if he chooses to walk on, plays fall but does not make the roster in spring....does he still have four years of eligibility left and will he have to sit a year if transferring ?
Good luck with everything.
Congratulations on the interest/offers your son has received thus far.
Before you worry about development and playing time, have you defined what the coach means by walk on?
Another words is he being given a chance to make the club as a walk on, or is he guaranteed a spot on the spring roster? Some coaches refer to walk on's as being given the opportunity with no guarantee of making the club.
What position does he play, and do you know how many other kids will be competing for his position?
I am not trying to worry you, but some coaches like to have their cake and eat it to. I have known several players who were "offered a walk on spot", only to be cut in the fall. One such kid and his parents thought he was on the team only to find that 50 kids were on the fall team and 15 were not going to make it. He was one of them and an entire year of his eligibility was gone.
The spot will only be as good as the coaches word, but you still want to be sure what he means by a walk on.
As to scholarship money, have you or the coaches contacted admissions to see if he is eligible for academic money? In many cases there is more academic money available than athletic money. Of course getting a combo is the best of both worlds.
quote:Originally posted by mood for baseball:
Second thing, and I'm interested in this very much....if he chooses to walk on, plays fall but does not make the roster in spring....does he still have four years of eligibility left and will he have to sit a year if transferring ?
I had the same questions in a different thead. Our fine member 3fingeredglove gave this reply:
Does participating in a fall baseball intercollegiate 'scrimmage' count against a player that does not make the roster's eligibility?
Yes
In other words, if Timmy shows up for fall try outs and Coach Smith is impressed enough to let Timmy pitch a few innings vs. Crosstown U, but Coach ultimately decides to cut Timmy, is Timmy now subject to transfer and eligibility restrictions, or is he free to play for Crosstown U next year?
There are 8 ways for a player to become considered a transfer (14.5.2) The most obvious is to have been enrolled fulltime at any college, and then to, well, transfer to a different school. Doesn't matter if the student was an athlete or not. Even if the student didn't attend full time, if he reported to practice or condititioning, he's classified as a transfer.
Does he need a 'release'?
Yes, in D1 and D2.
Does Coach Smith explain the ramifications of fall try outs (if there is any) at the first meeting? Do try outs sign an NCAA acknowledgement?
Don't know.
Is Baseball Very Important? Is this his dream school because he wants to play baseball for this team, or is it his dream school because he has always wanted to attend, regardless of playing baseball.
If it is the former and it is a top tier D-1 that is likely to field a very competitive baseball team each year, I would cautiously assess the offer.
If by my own evaluation felt my son was a late developer, would I want to have him competing head to head with early developers? Or, do I want to locate a program that very realistically expects to see my son on the field as a producer?
I would have some level of concern that my son may ride the pine behind upper classman, and if when his sophomore or Junior year came, recruits from JUCO’s may show up that my guy would again need to take a back seat to.
All I am really saying is if Baseball is important, I would try to encourage my son to match his desire to play with a program where he has the clear opportunity to earn ample playing time as soon as possible.
My son was offered a Recruited Walk on spot with a "guaranteed" roster spot in the spring by a large Florida University. He was offered significant scholarships from a few major D-1 Universities out of state. He initially chose a smaller D-2 program that offered 80%, then settled on a Florida JUCO where he played every inning of every game. He enjoys playing baseball, but gets antsy watching the game.
What exactly distinguishes "recruited" from "non-recruited"?
I understand that this process likely varies greatly for each player so I'm not expecting any earth-shattering pinpoint indicator that "Yes, once you pass #n, you are NOW definitely a recruit and can feel a little more comfortable that you're not likely just showing up to a cattle-call tryout in the fall" But in general, how far along the communication/exposure/interest timeline would a player have had to progress before being considered "recruited" and perhaps more comfortable that there's a spot on the team for him?
For example, some of these below are more obvious than others as to whether or not the player is being "recruited" and my son hasn't progressed through all of these either. I understand that some of these might not even be common; I'm just looking for general guidelines:
1. Reply to player-initiated email(s) with some compliments and a "Let's keep in touch".
2. Initial contact by coach (not player), perhaps asking for schedules.
3. Invitation to the team's baseball camp(s).
4. Player is taken aside by coach at/after camp for brief personal evaluation and compliments.
5. Coach goes to see player at a showcase/camp (not on his campus).
6. Coach comes to see player at his high school, summer or fall game(s).
7. Invited for UNofficial visit.
8. Invited to private workout with coach and/or staff.
9. Invited for official visit.
10. Told there'll be a "chance to be a contributor" (IOW, invited to a TRYOUT?).
11. Mention that the program also has a JV team, but with no promise that player would be placed there or varsity or either ("everyone competes for spots").
12. "Promised" (in words only, no NLI) that player will make varsity.
13. Promised that player will immediately start on varsity.
14. Signs a NLI and offered an athletic scholarship. (I understand that this does not apply in D3.) [Side questions: (a) Do an NLI and athletic scholarship always go hand-in-hand or can there be one without the other? (b) Are these really just for pitchers and immediate-impact projected starters? Without these though, all of the risk would seem to be on the player: they have to apply, get accepted, show up, and could end up getting cut (which sounds very similar to D3). With these, the coach shares some of that risk.]
15. What else?
I realize that not all recruiting paths progress through most or all of these steps. What other steps are there and which are better indicators of sincere interest?
Thank you.
It was clear to us that the offer would provide our son with all the opportunities any other player on the field would enjoy.
This offer occured in 2008 when there was an upheaval in D-1 recruiting due to new roster limits and the ability to award scholarship monies.
We really expected a scholarship offer from this program, the coach really expressed sincere interest and even would call me as he was leaving events and tell me how he loved my son after seeing him hit!
In terms of being recruited by this program, that was not really the case. My son emailed their coaching staff a few times throughout the summer, but did not receive a response. They just happened to see him play in a recent event held at their field. The recruiting coordinator approached him afterwards to make the offer and asked when he would likely make a decision.
With regards to the importance of baseball, I think it is important to him, but I don't think he wants to sacrifice academics for it. He is also enamored with the large university experience that the tier 1 school has to offer. On the other hand, he is a LHP and was told by the smaller D1 schools that he would play as a freshman. I doubt that will be the case at a tier 1 school.
I'm not sure there is a right answer here. Assuming that he does have a guaranteed roster spot, he could go with the tier 1 school and go for it all, risking that he may never get substantial playing time... or go with the smaller school and settle a little when it comes to his view of the college experience and strength of academics. I think it's just one of those difficult decisions that he needs to make.
At the D1 he will likely get a summer wood bat assignment where additional, and sometimes substantial, development can occur.
I'd be surprised if he didn't pitch an inning as a freshman. I just don't recall seeing that, especially in the days of 35 man rosters.
With that said, roster spots are year-to-year. The recruiting coordinator might have a bountiful harvest after year one, coinciding with a less fruitful year for junior.
Most of the time the biggest adjustment needed is between the players ears. They know instinctively at what level of play they will, or will not be successful. Most of the time they just simply know. I would let him make that judgement. Coaches want players with some swagger and heart. Swag is contagious. Coaches are not looking for kids that just want a jersey. If he thinks he will be over his head, then guess what....
What follows may help you formulate your questions.
As for my son they saw him late in the process and they had already committed all of their money. Your son is a LHP, which is good since you can be pretty specific about the questions you ask and there should not be any ambiguity. Like infieldad posted earlier in this thread, in the end all of this does not matter if your son does not develop into the player they need. If he does- he will play and if not - well it was fun. All you are doing is making sure he gets the additional year to develop and everyone understands the ground rules.
As far as the questions I would also make sure that you and your son are sitting in front of the coach and not have your son be the one who has to ask a lot of the tougher questions as it may be intimidating for him. You want to be there to help solidify the “understanding” and be a witness so to speak.
1. Confirm the spot is for one of the 35 man roster spots.
2. Ask about potential drafted players? Are there any, and if so and they get drafted can your son get some of this money? Be specific and get the names of the players who might get drafted. Most top programs have bubble kids who may or may not go in the draft so this gives them some conditional money. They may have already committed the conditional money, but maybe not.
3. Ask where they see your son in their recruiting class? (in your case this makes it easy since there will be fewer LHP’s)
4. Do they project him as a starter or a reliever? If a reliever - a situation one or a long.
5. Are there other players that they have brought in like your son who are now on the 25 man roster? Who are they? Can you go meet and talk with them? (you may not need to ask this just go find them on your own)
6. Now you can project out and get some idea on what future money may be available for him should he. A) Make the 35 man the following year. B) Make the 25 man as a 1. Situational reliever. 2. Long reliever. 3. Mid week starter 4. Weekend starter.
Have them give you an idea on how much money they would make available to your son if he were in any one of the above categories. Many programs have ranges of money they give out to players in those categories and you should have an understanding on how much would be available for your son should he make the playing squad.
Also ask about rooming and other questions. Some programs cannot give your son any help in rooming, or class registration priority until after he has been put on the 35 man, and some can. The coaches will most likely not be able to talk about your son to the press since he will not officially be part of the program until school starts. You just want to make sure and understand all of this.
Also realize that if the coach gets fired all bets are off, so you want to confirm through as many sources as possible the standing the coach has at the University.
Good Luck!
My son has not made his final decision, but we were both impressed with what the coaches had to say and are much more comfortable now with what to expect. Reaching out to them to have a more in depth discussion was exactly the right thing to do.
Thanks everyone for your input and advice.
quote:Originally posted by masterofnone:
Just wanted to give an update for the benefit of others who might be going through the same situation. Based on the feedback from many of you, my son asked to meet with the coaching staff and clarify exactly what he was being offered. I went with him. We asked many of the questions suggested on this thread and had a very good discussion. The offer was for a preferred walk-on spot, and he will have a spot on the 35 man spring roster. The coach said that there was no difference in what he was being offered from the other scholarship offers, except of course the money. He would have all of the same privileges with regards to class registration, rooming, meals, tutoring, etc. as the scholarship athletes. They have had many other kids in the same scenario in previous years, and several have gone on to contribute significantly even in their freshman year... in fact, one recent PWO kids batted in the 4th spot most of his freshman year. He also talked about several specific kids who came in as walk-ons and were ultimately drafted in the top 10 rounds. They said they really wanted my son but just did not have money to offer, and that they thought he could become very good as he develops.
My son has not made his final decision, but we were both impressed with what the coaches had to say and are much more comfortable now with what to expect. Reaching out to them to have a more in depth discussion was exactly the right thing to do.
Thanks everyone for your input and advice.
That sounds like a great meeting and that you got many questions answered. Thank you for closing the loop for us. I know when I read these messages I often wonder how things turned out. It's good to hear how you proceeded.
Good luck to you and your son.
quote:Originally posted by masterofnone:
My son has not made his final decision, but we were both impressed with what the coaches had to say and are much more comfortable now with what to expect. Reaching out to them to have a more in depth discussion was exactly the right thing to do.
Thanks everyone for your input and advice.
Aaahhh yes the sit down with the coaches. Lets see they've done this 100,200,500 times. How do you really know, if their straight shooters.One approach is to research archived rosters. Most rosters have a player profile/bio. Name,weight,city orgin, HS etc..look for players who have left early a well as players who stuck. Give the families a call and go from there. The coaches in all probability are telling you the truth. on the other hand if you were to find out the coaching staff rountinely extends 20-30 PWO's would that change your mind?
One experience the boy had during recruiting, after a meeting with the coaching staff and an offer was extended. We asked if he could think about the offer for a week, they all said fine. We then asked if anyone on the coaching staff was planning on leaving the program. They all confirmed, at this time(coachese meaning at that precise moment) nobody was going anywhere...A week later the pitching coach had taken another pitching coach position across the country. Just saying.
My oldest son had a full academic ride to a D2 school but elected to take a 90% ride to a private university. After 2 yrs and $15,000 in debt he would have been better off at the free ride D2 school.
I would recommend you take the most money offered for sports/academics because in the end the degree is what your son is after.
quote:Originally posted by cabbagedad:
What about the boys? Is it their regret as well? I would be ecstatic if we found a "good fit" private for $7-8K per year.
Since my older son has to pay off $15,000 in student loans for 2 years worth yeah I would say he regrets it. My definition of a "good fit" university is one that offers the most money.
Right now he is in the Army so the military will pay off his student loans in 3 years.
If I could have afford to pay the $8,000 / yr (for a $40,000/yr school) I would have.
Now my 2nd older son has a full academic ride at a D1 university. The interesting thing is that he was valedictorian of his class but it didn't help much toward scholarships. The 35 on his ACT did.
quote:Originally posted by masterofnone:
My son has not made his final decision, but we were both impressed with what the coaches had to say and are much more comfortable now with what to expect. Reaching out to them to have a more in depth discussion was exactly the right thing to do.
Thanks everyone for your input and advice.
It's good to hear that your meeting put you at ease. The integrity of the coaching staff is all you can rely on because if they are dishonest, then your son might lose a year of eligibility.
Good luck
quote:Originally posted by tradosaurus:
Now my 2nd older son has a full academic ride at a D1 university. The interesting thing is that he was valedictorian of his class but it didn't help much toward scholarships. The 35 on his ACT did.
I find it amazing that schools put so much into the test scores considering some very smart kids do not test to their potential. Needless to say your son scoring a 35 out of 36 is an incredible ACT score, which would get him into any school he desired.
A few of the universities my son was interested in did not care about his high GPA or that he attended a well respected private school. Instead they only cared about the SAT/ACT scores and based their academic offers solely of those test score numbers. Then again another school was just the opposite in that they seemed to care little about the test scores and went by the academic reputation of the HS. Needless to say they were in the minority based on our experience.
There is so much money (or was) that colleges are willing to hand out for high scores its ridonculous.
My 3rd son (13 yrs old) knows his older two brothers have set the academic bar high for him.
I've seen to many players, even ones with decent scholarships, being uphappy with sitting the first year at a stretch baseball school. At least 5 of these kids left school #1 after freshman year to play somewhere else.
I think if we all started this process deciding if baseball or academics is #1, many of the following decisions would be a lot easier.
There can be 35 players on a D1 college baseball team. 10 typically start. The coaches will sometimes sub, pinch hit and change pitchers.....so let's say that brings it up to 15 players to enter a particular game. Whether or not your son is a scholarship player or a recruited walk-on player is fairly irrelevant. My biggest question would be how often would he play over those 4 years with all things being equal? In a lot of cases, college players put a lot more into college baseball than they get out of it....just ask the other 20 guys sitting on the bench. For this reason, I would make sure I'm looking at the right level of college baseball just as you are looking for the right level of academics. Best of luck.
I saw somewhere 50% of all D1 baseball players transfer to play somewhere else. It makes sense when you consider about ten studs are recruited per year (relative to the program) to add to the existing roster minus the graduates and draftees.quote:I've seen to many players, even ones with decent scholarships, being uphappy with sitting the first year at a stretch baseball school. At least 5 of these kids left school #1 after freshman year to play somewhere else.
I heard dream school mentioned.... I did not hear dream team mentioned or dream coach.... I heard dream school.
If school is a priority and the dream school offered a walk on then TAKE IT.
Make a list of priorities... They can include
team
coach
location
overall school
major offered
college experience
cost
Then see how the school fits in with the list.
Most players do not go to their dream school. A lot of players bounce around a bit. A great fit is a Godsend.
I would beg to differ with tradasaur. Most money does not necessarily equal best fit for the kid (maybe for the parent). Daughter chose the school that offered her the least money. But it has really proven to be a great fit for her. She'll end up with a few student loans, but it's been well worth it to her.
quote:Originally posted by Vector:
[I find it amazing that schools put so much into the test scores considering some very smart kids do not test to their potential. Needless to say your son scoring a 35 out of 36 is an incredible ACT score, which would get him into any school he desired.
A few of the universities my son was interested in did not care about his high GPA or that he attended a well respected private school. Instead they only cared about the SAT/ACT scores and based their academic offers solely of those test score numbers. Then again another school was just the opposite in that they seemed to care little about the test scores and went by the academic reputation of the HS. Needless to say they were in the minority based on our experience.
quote:Originally posted by MTH:
I guess this varies a lot depending on the region. Daughter had a perfect score on the SAT. You would think that (and a 5.0 GPA) would result in a full academic ride at every school in SC, where we don't have any great academic institutions. That was not the case.
I am surprised to hear that because I also know of a student who aced his SAT and every top school was falling all over themselves to offer a free ride, or close to it. He is a decent baseball player, but all those schools saw was 1600 out of 1600, and wanted him.
Congrats to the OP & his son.
About 18 months ago, I posted some questions about my son pursuing a PWO position at one of his dream schools, which was also a bit of a stretch school for him. I was given a lot of good advice on this board. I thought I would give an update for how this panned out for anyone going through something similar.
Son had an okay fall. He absolutely loved being at this school and being part of the baseball program. He was bursting with pride and excitement all fall. There were 39 guys on the fall roster, so he was a bit nervous about the coach keeping to his word of putting him on the 35 man roster. The day before their first game in the spring, he found out that he was in fact on the on the 35 man roster. He got in occasionally in situational relief appearances. Had some pretty good outings and some not so great. Was put in some tough situations early, which was completely new to him… he did pretty well. He made the travel squad for the first couple of conference games. Then for about 4-5 weeks, he only dressed for home games. No playing time over that period. Over the last few conference series, he was brought in a couple of times in some big series. He pitched the last 1-1/3 innings in one game and pitched to a few batters in another. Did pretty well and they decided to keep him on the roster for the post season. He pitched one inning in the conference tournament and to one batter in the super regional. The team made it to Omaha and he got to travel... he did not get in but it was just a great experience to be there. Overall, he ended up with 11 appearances, the longest of which was 1-1/3 innings. Great experience for him and he is really looking forward to his sophomore year. Leads the team in GPA by the way.
I would say that was a pretty good first year....making the travel team, regionals, super regionals, AND Omaha! Congratulations to your son!
I always like reading updates...thanks for sharing!
Great experience for him and he is really looking forward to his sophomore year. Leads the team in GPA by the way.
Thanks for the update. Your son is certainly the master of something. That is one heck of a freshmen year. In re-reading your post, your son stuck to his guns for the education, and rolled the dice with baseball with nothing to lose. It all worked out extremely well. Congrats!
Fantastic! Congrats to your son on making a place for himself, both on the team and in the classroom! You must be so proud.
It is great when people post follow ups. Thanks!
where is he playing his summer ball?
Legion
Legion
I got a question about legion ball; I was looking at their website, and the ages go all the way up to 19. So if you were a 15 year old like myself, would it not be good to play Legion if you were primarily a pitcher? Considering you'd be facing guys a good bit older then you?
Young_Batter,
In our area, we have junior and senior legion. Kids typically play junior legion until they are 16 and then move to senior legion. So at 15, you would be playing against 14, 15, and 16 year olds. Some kids play senior legion earlier than that, but I have 2 boys, and they played junior legion until they turned 17.
I don't think it is necessarily better to play against older kids. It is more important to be in a program with a good coach, that develops kids, and gives you an opportunity to compete on the field. Legion in our area is pretty strong so the competition is good. It varies in different parts of the country. Ask around and find out if the competition level is what you are looking for and what you need to continue to improve. I think those are the most important considerations.
It can be a good experience. You would definitely be challenged as you will be facing mostly 16-19 year olds if you are on a senior legion team. That said, keep in mind, 2015 is the last year for 19 year olds to play Legion.
My son (1B, 3B & catcher) has played senior Legion since his sophomore year - the local post has only fielded a junior legion team one time -last year. This is his last year - he's 19. I do believe playing against older players has helped him prepare for college ball. I consider Legion to be an intermediate step between HS ball and college ball. He signed a NLI with a DII JUCO last year and had a great freshman year - starting DH (backup 1B) - hit .303 for the season, 2HR's, 7 doubles, 24 RBI's and 12 runs scored in 53 games.
Good luck.
There are couple other scenarios, maybe more, for walk-ons. If a kid is offered, for example, a 30% scholarship, but qualifies for 60% in financial aid, then the coach will request the student accept the FA since it is more money. Kid doesn't take the scholarship and is a walk-on.
Kids who qualify for more academic money than athletic scholarship may be asked to accept only the academic money in lieu of the athletic scholarship and then end up as a walk-on.
Want isn't he playing on a summer college team? No placement by school?
He was offered to play in a couple of college leagues. He elected to play Legion instead. Coach was fine with it. He is also taking one of his tougher classes this summer and wants to spend some time over the summer in a local work-out program.