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Dishonest College Coaches/Programs

A Aleebaba1,000+ posts
It is my understanding that colleges make offers, but sometimes rescind or modify those offers after the Freshman year, (despite promises otherwise during the recruitment process). I would hope this website would be a good forum for outing those programs. Anybody want to tell his or her story of coaches doing this to them or their son? I have not seen many stories like this so I wonder if it is rare, or if there is some other reason people do not want to bring up the issue.
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TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
As of now, NCAA college scholarships are renewable each year, they are not guaranteed.

In many instances some coaches do indicate that unless there is a problem, the scholarship will be renewed. Some people see that as a promise that it will definetly happen year after year, but my understanding has always been that the player has to EARN his scholarship each year.

In reality, scholarships can be withdrawn, increased or decreased.

Unfortunetly things happen. It has been discussed over the years here on the HSBBW, it doesn't happen often. To call out a program because someone may have misunderstood the coaches intention or not done their part to keep it, is unfair.

We just don't do that here.
Last edited by TPM
55mom55mom1,000+ posts
While I'm sure there are coaches who don't tell the whole truth, I would say that coaches have a bigger obligation to the team and by extension his school. The student athlete has an obligation to progress and perform at the next level. If they don't live up to expectations, well ... they won't play and may not get resigned.

OK, having said that, it is scary to think that the coach may not be honest with you and your student athlete.

Our experience taught us:

Money is probably the biggest and most touchy issue. Scholarships are for one year and are renewable.

Playtime - Depending on your choice of schools, unless you are a freshman stud, you will probably have time to study and learn the collegiate game rather than play it.

Know the rules and (imo) go to a school where you will fit in and play. Don't be the 10th middle infielder or the 3rd catcher....

Good Luck

PS, If you can attend games of the schools you are interested in. Then you can access coaching style, camaraderie of the players etc.
Last edited by 55mom
A Aleebaba1,000+ posts
I know that there is no guarantee, but I have personally heard stories of schools that gave 75% the first year, and reduced it to 25% the next (after getting boys in the door and promising otherwise). In fact, coaches have mentioned this to us to prevent us from considering other schools we may be interested in. Just curious to see if those stories were true.
justbaseballjustbaseball10,000+ posts
Not interested in 'outing' anyone on this, but I understand why the question is asked.

It is a question we asked every single coach, through 2 sons...it was important to us. The answers were varied...mostly on the side of keeping their implied 'commitment.' They ranged from...

"...if Junior ends up not being as good as I thought, thats my fault, not his, and we aren't gonna make him pay for it..."

to...

"...my school's AD wouldn't let me withdraw a scholarship unless there was an academic or disciplinary problem, so you can count on it..."

to...

"...Um, uh...well...that shouldn't be something you should worry about..."

Which one do you think you need to worry about?

However...outside of these answers, the truth is that most (nearly all?) transfer decisions are mutual between coach and player. No matter how elite the school, players who aren't playing are still unhappy nearly every time. Some move on, some quit the game...very few hang around and hold the coach to his 'commitment' on the scholarship.

It just usually works its own way out.
55mom55mom1,000+ posts
There was a thread on this earlier, but I can't remember the title or when it was discussed.

I have had a conversation with a parent who swore her son was offered 60% over 4 years. I mentioned (very diplomatically) that schools were not allowed to do that due to NCAA rules.... well, the long and short of it is that I'm fairly convinced that parents are looking through rose colored glasses.
fenwaysouthfenwaysouth10,000+ posts
quote:
Aleebaba.... I have personally heard stories of schools that gave 75% the first year, and reduced it to 25% the next (after getting boys in the door and promising otherwise).


Aleebaba,

TPM is taking the high road, and I'm right there with her. There are too many variables, and for the most part most college coaches are hard working and honorable folks. There are a few programs and coaches to avoid just as there is in any profession. It is always a "Buyer Beware" and "Trust but Verify" world out there. Be careful.

I'm willing to guess that many on HSBBWeb know of programs like you describe offering a 75% scholarship up front and then decreasing the scholarship over time as the normal course of doing business.....and it is a business because many thousands of dollars are in play. This scenario (bait and switch) happens, and I'm personally familiar with a few programs that repeatedly do it. Truthfully, it didn't take much research or many private conversations to figrure out who is doing it. However, there is no way am I going to post that information on a public forum.
Last edited by fenwaysouth
coach2709coach270910,000+ posts
Another problem we have to worry about is just because family A had problems / issues with a coach doesn't mean family B, C, D etc... will. Sometimes certain people rub other people the wrong way. It could be the coach or the family but somehow someway there is friction between the two. It really doesn't mean one is a bad person or liar - it just means it didn't work out between the two. I don't think naming name is very fair because of this.

Just my two cents worth
PrepsterPrepster10,000+ posts
A story and a couple of observations:

Trust, but verify.
When he was ready to make his commitment, my son chose the lowest (by far) of 6 offers. When the head coach at his chosen school made the offer, he explained that the recruitment of several high-profile players from out-of-state limited him to less than he would like to be able to offer. However, he went on to say that if my son performed the way they thought he might, they'd find additional funds along the way to supplement his initial scholarship. He also indicated that he'd been able to do this in the past and mentioned the names of several current players who had benefited in the way he described.

So, before he accepted, my son spoke with all of the players who had been named as ones whose scholarship amounts had been increased; and, he found that they, in fact, had had their scholarships bumped up as they'd contributed. I also spoke with several past and current parents, and they also confirmed what we'd been told.

The result? He accepted, worked extremely hard, made a significant contribution beginning in his Freshman year; and, by the time he was a junior, I was paying very little for him to go to college. The head coach had been as true to his word as the players and parents told us we could expect. However, it had been important on the front end to verify the coach's contention.

Observations
(1) Baseball at major Division I programs is immensely challenging, both athletically and academically. Successful programs expect an enormous work ethic from their players; and, it's not just the coaches who expect it. The players, particularly the upper classmen, expect it, as well.

Occasionally, players arrive and find that they're not up to the task. When that's the case, it usually doesn't take long for the coaches and other players to realize it. In an overwhelming number of cases, these are the players whose scholarships are reduced after the first year. Many of those who find themselves in this predicament choose to transfer.

In the aftermath of situations like this, the parents and/or players involved sometimes find it more convenient to pin the responsibility for the player's shortcomings on the coaches' "unfair" assessment. After all, Johnny was All-State Stud in high school. How else could he have possibly washed out at "Top 25 U?!"

In these cases, the coaches have been neither devious nor disingenuous; but, if you choose to listen to the parent or player who chooses to take that tack, you might think that to have been the case.

Which leads to my second observation:
(2) There are absolutely no guarantees in major college baseball. Every one of the 35 players on the roster was All-State Stud in high school...every single one. It's an entirely new environment, no matter how advanced or competitive the high school circumstances.

At the end of the day, the coach is evaluated overwhelmingly on the number of wins he produces. He wins largely by playing the players who routinely produce the best results. If Johnny produces, he plays. If he doesn't produce, he doesn't play...no matter how promising he might have seemed coming out of high school.

There are plenty of excellent players who thrive in that sort of highly competitive environment. They are the ones who populate major college programs and make them "major programs." Players like this understand the "no guarantee" policy and what it does to elevate the program. If you're thinking about this level of program, you need to be prepared to embrace this sort of approach to the game.
Last edited by Prepster
RJMRJMHSBaseballWeb member since 2007
Athletic scholarships are year to year. There are no guarantees. Hit .170 and start praying you still have a scholarship, not to mention a roster spot.

Academic scholarships may be guaranteed with conditions. My kid's academic rides have/had a gpa contingency. Is this any different than a baseball coach having expectations of performance?

I have heard of seniors losing scholarships. There was an assumption they would leave via the draft follwing their jnunior year. The coach didn't budget for their return. When they don't sign and return their own their own financially.

I was told of a major program that will not provide scholarships for senior year. They recruit players they expect to succeed and depart following junior year. I got the information from a dad who had a son play there.
Last edited by RJM
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
quote:
Originally posted by Aleebaba:
I know that there is no guarantee, but I have personally heard stories of schools that gave 75% the first year, and reduced it to 25% the next (after getting boys in the door and promising otherwise). In fact, coaches have mentioned this to us to prevent us from considering other schools we may be interested in. Just curious to see if those stories were true.


We stayed away from coaches that seemed to want to talk more about what the coaches do at other schools (negative)rather than what they do at theirs (positive). Good coaches with good programs don't do that, you might want to consider the source.

Read Prepster's post, a few times.

Yup I am taking the high road because it appears that you are getting second hand information.

I do know of situations where scholarships have been reduced, that can happen, but keep in mind that all circumstances are different. If it happens, it doesn't make a coach dishonest, dishonest is making promises that they are not allowed to make in the first place.
Last edited by TPM
CG Coastal GeorgiaMember
I have heard the stories too but, all second hand so I will not repeat them. A 25% to 40% is a good scholarship in an equivalency sport like baseball. I know that the NCAA allows 11.7 in baseball but you would be suprised at how many (big name) DI schools are not fully funded. The athletic programs in Cal and the S.E. states are under enormous fiscal pressure. Some universities are getting 9 or 10 full scholarship for their programs.
If someone is offered a 100%, is to try and keep him from entering the draft (top round pick). That way, they will either not have to give up the money or, get a game changing player.
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
We all should be careful in what we hear and repeat when it could hurt good programs.

Is it really dishonesty of coaches or is it lack of performance from the player? Coaches can't afford to give out scholarships and then the player doesn't live up to expectations (on or off the field) and most likely needs to move on.
A Aleebaba1,000+ posts
It's amazing how different it is for college baseball. I hear the "player is not performing" stuff, but I have heard some coaches specifically say that they will honor their commitments to a player no matter what, (unless academic or behavioral issues). That suggests to me that the coach has integrity rather than being less competitive. However, it seems that most people that responded to this thread think that college coaches should be allowed to drop or reduce scholarship amounts if player is injured or is having a tough stretch. Some would argue that coaches that drop players or reduce scholarships should just do a better job of evaluating talent.

I started this thread because I do think that a player should take the coaches history of treating previous players into account when deciding on a school. However, I guess it should be done in a more private message on a specific school so as not to cause ill will.
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
quote:
Originally posted by Aleebaba:
It's amazing how different it is for college baseball. I hear the "player is not performing" stuff, but I have heard some coaches specifically say that they will honor their commitments to a player no matter what, (unless academic or behavioral issues). That suggests to me that the coach has integrity rather than being less competitive. However, it seems that most people that responded to this thread think that college coaches should be allowed to drop or reduce scholarship amounts if player is injured or is having a tough stretch. Some would argue that coaches that drop players or reduce scholarships should just do a better job of evaluating talent.

I started this thread because I do think that a player should take the coaches history of treating previous players into account when deciding on a school. However, I guess it should be done in a more private message on a specific school so as not to cause ill will.


Did anyone say anything about injuries? Yes, you should take some things into account when making choices, but if you hear that coach XYZ is a bad guy because he drops scholarhips, understand that this happens all of the time. And if you heard that coach XYZ promised the player that he would keep his scholarhip no matter what, keep in mind they can't do that (promise).

I do believe that most players can figure it out for themselves just by watching their teammates around them. I know that my player would never want to remain in a program where he was going to sit the bench for 3-4 years. And I would imagine at the end of season chat if the coach told my player he wouldn't be seeing much playing time the following season, he would want to move on as well. If he didn't get the hint, pretty sure that he would lose his athletic money which is very precious and hard to come by these days.

And for the record, me personally, I want my son to play for a team with a coach who is competitive not just a good guy who keeps players around because they can't perform, my own included. If that makes them bad coaches to some, that's their perception.

Before going into this process and making a commitment, be aware that just as in the workplace you have to perform to keep your job.


Yes, many coaches should do a better job at recruiting just as players need to do a better job of keeping their spot, some don't. If that the case, no way is a coach going to keep them around.
S SwampboyHSBBWeb Administrator
quote:
Originally posted by Aleebaba:
It's amazing how different it is for college baseball. I hear the "player is not performing" stuff, but I have heard some coaches specifically say that they will honor their commitments to a player no matter what, (unless academic or behavioral issues). That suggests to me that the coach has integrity rather than being less competitive. However, it seems that most people that responded to this thread think that college coaches should be allowed to drop or reduce scholarship amounts if player is injured or is having a tough stretch. Some would argue that coaches that drop players or reduce scholarships should just do a better job of evaluating talent.


I think it's simplistic to say that a coach who will "honor" a promise he's not permitted to make has integrity and to suggest that coaches who make no such promises lack integrity. Different coaches/schools have different goals, expectations, and approaches. A coach who is paid more than $300,000 by an employer who wants him to compete for championships may have just as much integrity when he tells recruits that scholarships are binding for one year and subject to annual renewal, that everyone has to earn everything, that there will be intense competition for every roster spot and every role, and that there are no guarantees.

It's even more simplistic to say these coaches should just do a better job of evaluating talent. In fact, it's beyond simplistic; it's flippant.
Last edited by Swampboy
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
I admit that I was one who thought that scholarships were for 4 years, so I can see how some parents might get comfused.

However at the time of recruitment, all the coaches said the same thing. The amount of the scholarship is renewed year after year if certain conditions are met, those being performance in all areas.
P PGStaff10,000+ posts
The following post made earlier by "Prepster" sure is a good one.

quote:
Posted November 21, 2011 01:25 PM Hide Post
A story and a couple of observations:

Trust, but verify.
When he was ready to make his commitment, my son chose the lowest (by far) of 6 offers. When the head coach at his chosen school made the offer, he explained that the recruitment of several high-profile players from out-of-state limited him to less than he would like to be able to offer. However, he went on to say that if my son performed the way they thought he might, they'd find additional funds along the way to supplement his initial scholarship. He also indicated that he'd been able to do this in the past and mentioned the names of several current players who had benefited in the way he described.

So, before he accepted, my son spoke with all of the players who had been named as ones whose scholarship amounts had been increased; and, he found that they, in fact, had had their scholarships bumped up as they'd contributed. I also spoke with several past and current parents, and they also confirmed what we'd been told.

The result? He accepted, worked extremely hard, made a significant contribution beginning in his Freshman year; and, by the time he was a junior, I was paying very little for him to go to college. The head coach had been as true to his word as the players and parents told us we could expect. However, it had been important on the front end to verify the coach's contention.

Observations
(1) Baseball at major Division I programs is immensely challenging, both athletically and academically. Successful programs expect an enormous work ethic from their players; and, it's not just the coaches who expect it. The players, particularly the upper classmen, expect it, as well.

Occasionally, players arrive and find that they're not up to the task. When that's the case, it usually doesn't take long for the coaches and other players to realize it. In an overwhelming number of cases, these are the players whose scholarships are reduced after the first year. Many of those who find themselves in this predicament choose to transfer.

In the aftermath of situations like this, the parents and/or players involved sometimes find it more convenient to pin the responsibility for the player's shortcomings on the coaches' "unfair" assessment. After all, Johnny was All-State Stud in high school. How else could he have possibly washed out at "Top 25 U?!"

In these cases, the coaches have been neither devious nor disingenuous; but, if you choose to listen to the parent or player who chooses to take that tack, you might think that to have been the case.

Which leads to my second observation:
(2) There are absolutely no guarantees in major college baseball. Every one of the 35 players on the roster was All-State Stud in high school...every single one. It's an entirely new environment, no matter how advanced or competitive the high school circumstances.

At the end of the day, the coach is evaluated overwhelmingly on the number of wins he produces. He wins largely by playing the players who routinely produce the best results. If Johnny produces, he plays. If he doesn't produce, he doesn't play...no matter how promising he might have seemed coming out of high school.

There are plenty of excellent players who thrive in that sort of highly competitive environment. They are the ones who populate major college programs and make them "major programs." Players like this understand the "no guarantee" policy and what it does to elevate the program. If you're thinking about this level of program, you need to be prepared to embrace this sort of approach to the game.
S SwampboyHSBBWeb Administrator
quote:
Originally posted by Jones fan:
Scholarships can now be guaranteed for four years
http://espn.go.com/college-spo...arship-rules-changes


Jones fan,

I believe implementation of this particular provision was left for individual schools to decide. As far as I know, no schools have done so yet.

I read that football coaches don't like the idea. Why would they? It won't help them recruit the 4- and 5-star recruits, and they value the motivational leverage and total control they get from single-year scholarships.

Also, what coach would willingly accept a situation in which his players had better long-term security than he has in his own contract?

We'll have to wait and see if any school decides to overrule its revenue-producing coach. I won't hold my breath. In the mean time, promises of 4-year scholarships remain unwritten and unenforceable.
Last edited by Swampboy
W warningtrack100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Jones fan:
Scholarships can now be guaranteed for four years
http://espn.go.com/college-spo...arship-rules-changes


One of the best academic and best D1 programs here in the Bay Area sent this out to potential recruits. Their take on it was that the schools who over recruit will not be able to do so if this passes - which they believe will.

I can see some schools offering 3/4 years to entice the better kids from going to the top baseball schools who only offer 1 year.It sure will be interesting to see how this plays out.
Last edited by warningtrack
S SwampboyHSBBWeb Administrator
quote:
Originally posted by warningtrack:
quote:
Originally posted by Jones fan:
Scholarships can now be guaranteed for four years
http://espn.go.com/college-spo...arship-rules-changes


One of the best academic and best D1 programs here in the Bay Area sent this out to potential recruits. Their take on it was that the schools who over recruit will not be able to do so if this passes - which they believe will.

I can see some schools offering 3/4 years to entice the better kids from going to the top baseball schools who only offer 1 year.It sure will be interesting to see how this plays out.


Their take is wishful thinking.

Top prospects are unlikely to be significantly influenced by multi-year scholarships because they know their talent is the best guarantor of their scholarship.

The players who most need and covet multi-year scholarships will be the replacement level, low scholarship players who aren't so sure if and where they fit into the coach's long-term plan.

That's why it's hard to see how a school could gain a competitive advantage through multi-year scholarships, but easy to see how a program could lose its edge once players realize they can put forth less than total commitment and still keep their scholarships.

Most academic scholarships require some level of acceptable performance to be renewed. Why should athletic scholarships be exempt from performance requirements?

How likely is it that an upperclassman back-up player will show up for the 5:30 a.m. "non-mandatory" workouts that currently attract 100% participation? What effect will it have on the team when guys who know they can't be cut realize they're never going to start and put it on cruise control?
PrepsterPrepster10,000+ posts
Those 11.7 scholarships (IF a program is fully funded) are as precious as hens' teeth, as the saying goes. When the NCAA enacted the most recent regulations concerning the distribution of those scholarships (2007), it removed a material amount of the flexibility Division I coaches had used in the past to manage the many moving parts of a roster's composition; particularly the hard-and-fast 27 players-on-scholarship/35 players-on-the-roster aspects.

Their ability to apply some degree of distribution to those scholarships from year-to-year remains as one of the few controllable elements available to them. For all of the reasons swampboy has laid out plus coaches' natural reluctance to tie up a portion of those precious 11.7 scholarships for multiple seasons, it's hard to see that it's a change that will be widely adopted.
Last edited by Prepster
PrepsterPrepster10,000+ posts
One more thought:

It seems like 85% to 90% of all sweeping changes made by the NCAA for Division I are made for and because of one sport: King Football. The remaining decisions are made for basketball.

It's the football and basketball players (and their "advisors") who have been trying for years to get more than a full scholarship paid to them along with multi-year scholarship commitments; and the NCAA has accommodated them up to a point in these changes.

I think it will be much easier to administer multiple-year scholarships in a sport that offers its 85 players each a FULL scholarship as does football; instead of having to divvy them up as is done in baseball and a number of other sports. The limited dollars are much more precious in those sports, causing the effect of tying them up for protracted periods to be much more dramatic to their recruiting process.
Last edited by Prepster
sandlot dadsandlot dad10+ posts
I have highly valued the advice received on this site. I find nothing wrong with sharing info about the colleges relative to their promises and broken promises to young men.

A huge reason in choosing one college over another is the fact that promises are made. I have gone through the process twice and not one coach ever said my sons scholly would be reduced for a low batting average or a high ERA. They all said the only way to have it reduced or taken away was for failing grades or a crime or not performing team duties. Now, did I believe their statements, no. I have heard of to many stories and I am a realist. For those that want to know about midwest or west coast colleges just PM me.

As for the new rules, I believe they are in part a response to the many lawsuits against the schools and parent org. with the ultimate goal of heading off congress getting in involved with the NCAA.
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
quote:
Originally posted by sandlot dad:
I have gone through the process twice and not one coach ever said my sons scholly would be reduced for a low batting average or a high ERA.


Do you expect a coach would actually say that to anyone during recruiting? I think it's pretty much understood that if you don't perform as expected you won't be around for 3-4 years. I can see how parents might come to a conclusion that a coach lied to their player.

BTW, when a players scholarship is reduced the coach is telling him to move forward. As I said in my last post, take it for what it is worth and move forward.

So you are saying that a consistant sub par performance should be accepted by coaches and the players teammates?

Think of it this way, if you don't perform at your job will your boss keep you around forever?

Where have your players gone to playbaseball, please share.
Last edited by TPM
sandlot dadsandlot dad10+ posts
To add, coaches most always say you can go up in scholly $$ to reward outstanding performance on the field.

And yes it gets said over and over. See the comment team duties, which is the catch all for behavior, working hard, etc etc. At every step of the way the competition increases and some players just can not excel at the next level however are very fine teammates. I think there is a presumption here that those that are not performing on the field are doing so because of lack of work effort, when in fact I believe many players just reach their ceiling.

I get that with 11.7 its very tough for a program to operate under. But they should be up front and tell it like it is and not wait for the family to find out later that its time to move on. I do not think you have an appreciation or respect for how hard that really is for the student athlete, especially a D1 guy. Yes I get your business analogy however if I make a business decision and have made verbal promises, I honor them unless the other party causes a breach. And I am sharing that the programs we have dealt with do not mention non performance on the field as a potential breach, reality or truth aside.
Again they only mention the behaviors stuff, team responsibilities, etc as deal changers.

In my experience the privates are ones to really research the most as any change in scholly there can result in significant increase in costs.

And no boss will keep you around forever, I get it. I just do not agree with it unless for the right reasons. Reaching a kids ceiling, and being at a school that he loves to pursue his education is whats key. Passing on other schools for the original one and now he can not go back to because a coach asked him to move on is not right. In the case of a D1 he can only go lower division to play right away. It is tough for the player.

Families deserve to know about those programs that take advantage of the kids. And by the way there is a major D1 that is currently on probation for forcing kids out and reducing scholly's so obviously the NCAA does not think it is right either.

My sons have been blessed to have scholly's from D1 programs. Players I am very tight with have gone on to all divisions of college baseball. It is fun and exciting for both the players and families.
Tx-HuskerTx-Husker1,000+ posts
To be fair, it's a little different than real world, TRhit. In real world, you can change jobs without restrictions to get a better fit when you find out things about the employer that don't fit for you. The NCAA restricts that which puts more cards in the institution's hands. To me, to make it real world, players should be free to transfer without restrictions or sitting out if the institution lowers/pulls his scholarship.
J johnj314100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Tx-Husker:
To be fair, it's a little different than real world, TRhit. In real world, you can change jobs without restrictions to get a better fit when you find out things about the employer that don't fit for you. The NCAA restricts that which puts more cards in the institution's hands. To me, to make it real world, players should be free to transfer without restrictions or sitting out if the institution lowers/pulls his scholarship.


+1, excellent post!
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