DISSERVICE?????

Pitty the poor coaches who have to deal with those parents! Of course those may be the very coaches who put the kids on the list in the first place!

quote:

Are we doing them a disservice by giving them this fodder to feed on?

Any thoughts????

TR, I couldn't agree with you more. I was perusing a schedule of tournaments the other day and saw one which was listed as a State Championship tournament for T-Ball. Ridiculous.

TR,
It's a travesty, it's a shame, and it's a mockery! It's a traveshamockery!

There are so many youth baseball sanctions out there and each one has their own "national champs" it's gettin crazy out there.

TR;

maybe we should start a new league "work up"
everyone plays all positions. Players rotate from RF to CF to LF to 3b, to ss, to 2b to pitcher and then catcher.
The batter continues to hit as long as he has hits.
No parents involved, only qualified young coaches.

This will create future lawyers, insurance agents, salesman and teachers.

Wood bats are mandatory, no stats, only fun.

Bob Williams

TR ...

I believe 'we' are doing the players and parents a disservice with all these accolades which are so specific to the many youth baseball organizations that they almost seem meaningless.

And tho others may not agree with me, I think when we have well known and well read publications like Baseball America 'identifying' the country's best 12 year old, 13 year old, etc, it only adds to the disservice. Hopefully those players, who I have no doubt are superior, will not be 'hurt' because of the premature assessments of their talent based on a very very limited field of players.

JMHO FWIW

Apparently it's never too early for anything. Some may have heard of this story as it was in national papers and on ESPN SportsCenter. An 8th grade basketball player in my hometown just gave verbal to Tim Floyd at USC.
He's a good player but he's a 5'8 14 year old. I could maybe understand it if he was 6'3 or above with room to grow/tall parents. The kid has not yet decided which high school he will attend in 2 months but has verbal with USC. Things are really out of hand in the recruiting game.
I have a buddy with a talented 6th grader to be. I may suggest to him it soon may be time to start taking some unofficial visits.

I dont care for what some idiots think about young athletes skill. I absolutely hate the way baseball is handled in America. with travel teams and such. play your summer fall leagues and play high school ball.

Dont travel. it is a waste of money compared to the amount a experience you recieve. the only thing that this type of baseball does is give "Exposure" and then people in dumb magazines can write about how good a 14 year old is.

quote:

Originally posted by Glove Man:
It's a traveshamockery!

Traveshamockery? Why am I picturing some cross dressing four leaf clover?

.
The ultimate Woodman challenge...

...finding a picture for THAT!

44
.

Yes, TRhit, it's absolutely ridiculous to make anything of these rankings and such at such an early stage. Not to take anything away from these obviously hard working players.

A lot can happen to players over the years. I know of one kid who was a very promising baseball player when he was younger, but a stroke of bad luck and one blow to the side of his face with a s****r ball changed all that when it led to his becoming legally blind in one eye. He quit playing once he found out he couldn't hit anymore.

A young man who was the top player on my son's basketball team (undefeated 4 yrs straight) was kicked-off the high school team after he got in with the wrong crowd and violated the no drinking policy. He has since dropped out of school.

My own son was always one of the tallest players on his teams, until the last couple of years. Most of the other kids continued to grow while he stopped at a mere 5'9". Looking in the dugout the other day I couldn't help but notice how he seems to be at a disadvantage when compared to the size of most of his teammates. I never would've imagined this to be a problem in the past.

You just can't ever really tell how things will turn out.

Simply put - rankings are driven by travel coaches, tournament directors, baseball publications, newspapers, baseball websites and parents.

We are society that ranks everything from the best hot dog or pizza to the finest dog shampooer so it is not surprising that we may have a "T-ball" All-American someday. Agree with the posters who think it is ridiculous, but there is a bottom line. Who gets the privilege of continuing to play? We see a lot of lists posted or published in our area about "all this" or "all that" and parent generated publicity. But that alone does not get you an offer from a D1 or drafted by a MLB team.

I have to agree and disagree. The big attraction to go to any tournament is to win. You don't go there to loose. The result is then to rank the teams based upon their performance, thus generating the top teams list.

Come on, isn't this why we all go to the game; to watch our kids WIN. Of course we know they will loose games and they all need to learn how to loose too.

We also need to encourage our kids, so what's wrong with pumping them up. I don't believe the kids have any problems here, it’s the parents. One time I heard something to the affect "How can Johnny be ranked higher than my son, where's the *** that made up this list!" I believe kids don’t get enough encouragement. Reality sets in soon enough, why not let them relish in the hype for a while.

I have to disagree about the travel ball team comment too. I believe that my son improved greatly due to the level of competition he played with and against. It was just sad sometimes to watch kids in park ball that could not catch or swing the bat. I just can’t see the better players improving in that environment.

The park we played at also had too much of the park manager’s kids making the all star teams that it left deserving kids at home. I believe unless “parks” figure out how to deal with travel ball and get the sanctioning bodies to embrace the concept, park ball will not attract or keep the better players in their parks.

Woody……….

WOW! Talk about a “triple dog dare” from observer44

I sent you a PM

TR

Of course you are right here. But, for worse, look at it another way: While little matters until you make your high school varsity team, the earlier you get a good reputation, the better your chances of getting an invite to the better travel teams to further enhance the "rep."

Now, since you have a "rep," you're in a better position to make the high school team and/or get to the varsity faster so you can on the radar earlier to take advantage of your "rep" to get invites to better showcases and travel teams to get a leg up on all the others trying to compete for a college scholarship.

Sound familiar to anyone?

Look, I think it stinks. I think a well-rounded person, who takes some time to develop instead of worrying about rankings, is the way to go. My oldest never even did a showcase until the winter before his junior season, after one full season of varsity ball and a Legion all-star summer.

But I know we were behind when he "went for it" in baseball.

I know with my 9-year-old we'll not worry about anything until I know he has some talent, and he indicates he wants to do something with whatever he has.

But I know I'd start looking for those answers by the he's a sophomore.

Lets go Wood, we need something.... Different here.

With ya TR, our local paper had an article ranking the states top golfers... in the age 6-9 group. I couldn't stop laughing. Then I thought, thats actually tragic.
When will we leave them alone to play, grow and learn to socialize on their own? Thats how they learn to solve disputes.

Listen the way things are today with the play to pay you have to butter up the customer. that being the parents who foot the bill. today there are so many teams. It is just like anything else the more teams the talent is spread out.

There is nothing wrong with travel ball.
There is nothing wrong with going to play against better competition and to WIN and take home a trophy.

Being declared National Champions in baseball should be reserved for levels above HS.

JMO.

I DO know one coach who asked that his players not be mentioned in these magazines/websites.

How's this 44? I had a little help from my new found little friend!


It's amazing what a dousing thundershower and a little fertilizer can do. This looks like a pretty good crop...don't you agree 44?

We are a "food chain" driven society and everyone fits in somewhere. Whether it be "the most likely to succeed" from your HS graduating class or the best 12 yr old baseball player with red hair, there will always be a top 10 list. Besides "opposing thumbs", humans are gifted, or maybe cursed, with the ability/expectation of giving opinions, and rating everything that has at least 2 pieces. Because we have the mental ability to process thoughts, lists and ratings will never go away. We just need to decide which ones to pay attention to and which ones to blow off. As a result of that opinion, we have inadvertently created our own top 10 list of rating other peoples list. In the rest of the animal kingdom there is right/wrong, seldom varying a opinions, and if you disagree you are going to be run out of the herd.

I agree with TR that we maybe are doing them a disservice. What can we say? Some will let those lists go to their head, and others will use it as motivation to disprove those who made the list.

I guess you have to ask yourself which level of baseball is the most important. Just because MLB is the most talented doesn’t make it the most important in my opinion. “T” ball is just as important as MLB. I would venture to say there are more “T” ball fans than there are MLB fans. My son didn’t play “T” ball just so he could play recreational ball ---- so he could play travel ball ---- so he could play high school --- so he could play college --- so he could play pro ball. Every level has its own set of rewards and disappointments. Enjoy the moment! If the moment happens to be 12u recreational baseball ---- those parents and players should enjoy it as much if not more than the MLB player and his parents. When we look back ----- we don’t necessarily have to look down. I think every level needs to have rewards.
Fungo

Fungo--great post.

It reminds me of when my kids were really young and people would always suggest to me that I couldn't wait until they would/could walk or talk or go to pre-school or kindergarten...etc....We do have to "enjoy the moment" because the moment will be gone before we know it.

And we may never get a "new moment".

Consultant:

quote:

maybe we should start a new league "work up"
everyone plays all positions. Players rotate from RF to CF to LF to 3b, to ss, to 2b to pitcher and then catcher.
The batter continues to hit as long as he has hits.

All positions, then you get to hit.
3 out's or 6 at bats.
And all stats are kept, Secret to the players.
No divulging any info, unless they do it on there own.
If it's that important to them they'll keep track.

Just play ball.
At the end of season you can then decide who the MVP is by there overall stats.

That would make baseball a Individual as well as a team sport.

I think it would be a fun league to play in and watch.
EH

As an amendment to the original I now see references to "RANKING SERVICES" for under 14 groups and then when I look at the so called regionals they have teams from the west and south in the east and teams from the south and east in the west---what goes with that !---teams are afraid to try to win in their own region

quote:

Originally posted by rz1:
We are a "food chain" driven society and everyone fits in somewhere.

I agree with that.

I fit in right between the mozzerella and the soppresata.

TRHit - Pet peeve of mine. Hate the idea of crowning these young kids as superstars when they aren't even CLOSE to being superstars. How many of us have watched a kid fizzle out at the high school level after being "Lebron-esque" at the little league levels? Sad.
Not sure WHY anyone does this...is it the parents' egos? Coaches? Wannabe website developers? Regardless, the best thing that could happen would be for people to let kids be kids - none of us old farts had this type of press and it didn't hurt our chances to play. LET IT GO!!!!

I hafta' quit reading your posts its...I'm trying to lose weight and your posts make my mouth water! I don't even know what soppresta is, but it sounds delicious!

Ok, ok...I found a picture...looks delicious...pass the cheese and olives!

Don't forget the wine!

"Have you hugged your wine today?"

I don't mind the rankings or the World Series / Nationals. But I think qualifying a 12, 13, 14u player as an "All American" is a bit over the top.

As my oldest son (now 16) played the summer travel circuit every summer. I saw hundreds if not thousands of players from around the state. I thought I had a good idea on who the top talent was in his age group. This spring watching his high school baseball games I saw a lot of talent that I did not know existed. I would think to myself "wow,where did this stud come from?" More than likely this unknown talent was hunkered down in some rec league just having some fun. Then he goes through puberty, blossems into the real deal, and shows his stuff on the high school team. And we have all seen the 12yr old stud flame out.
These rankings etc.. ITS ALL JUST NOISE

TripleDad,

I heard this great story several years ago at a basketball coaching clinic and your post brought it to my mind.

"Let me tell you about this tree. Year after year, farmers water their Chinese Bamboo seeds. They cultivate them and nourish them and wait for them to grow. But, for ten years, when the average observer looks down, all she will see is barren ground. And she might well assume that the tree has not grown.

That's because during these ten years, the Chinese Bamboo Tree only grows underground -- developing a strong web of intertwined roots, a subterranean fortress, a foundation.

And then, that very next year, when the foundation is in place, when the roots are deep and strong enough, the tree bursts forth like a rocket -- one-hundred feet into the air."

……Pat Riley

So that's where those Scotsmen got the idea...halfway around the globe.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
Most of these kids are a long way from puberty and physical maturation.

Are we doing them a disservice by giving them this fodder to feed on?
Even more so are we doing the parents of these players a disservice by possibly deluding them about what lies ahead?

Yes, yes and yes! This could launch me down a related topic, but I'll stop there.

quote:

Originally posted by Fungo:
“T” ball is just as important as MLB. I would venture to say there are more “T” ball fans than there are MLB fans.

YES! This is something that is quite often forgotten by WAY too many people. Without the t-ball players who hopefully later become fans, there will be no game of MLB baseball.

Not every school participates in a HS Fall league, not every town has legion ball or rec ball beyond 14U. Without travel ball, my son would be sitting around not playing team-ball for a good portion of the year. Because of travel ball competition he has been able to develop skills and confidence he otherwise wouldn't have. His HS coaches have commented that it's very clear to them that he has benefited from travel ball, and they encourage it because it benefits them during the Spring.

Parents of old teammates from rec who play on other HS teams have also commented on the difference in development between my son, who moved into travel ball at 12, and their sons, who stayed with local rec and then HS fall league. They are often surprised, and then regretful.

Travel ball allows kids to play more games, face competition they would not face in their own little corner of the world, get a different coaching perspective, and meet teammates from other areas. There are some negatives, as with anything, but I have been generally happy with our experiences. Parents certainly need to keep some perspective, but travel ball is a humbling experience. So much talent and good ball out there.

Funny thing is, it's been my experience that the non-travel parents often have a distorted perspective about their son's talent. I know many local parents who think their son is a one-of-a-kind stud based on their county and region, or even the local league. They aren't aware of all the other great players out there because they never see them, never see JR compete against them. Travel parents and players have seen the competition on a much broader scale and tend to have a better understanding of the level of available talent in the world. JMO.

I am not talking good or bad about travel ball---I think travel i great for the kids and parents--what I am talking about is the plethora of websites exalting the young players as All Americans and then National Rankings for the teams---this goes from 14 u to 6 U

I, and others, were responding to Rock44 about travel being a waste of time and money.

Whether it's travel ball rankings or ranking services, parents and others have to look at the credibility of the ranking system, the competition played when receiving that "national title" and other factors, then decide if their puffery is warranted.

Some parents or players get carried away, or have no perspective, but it all comes out in the wash eventually: Who makes the varsity team, who starts, who bats at the top, who has the stats, who gets a NLI, who gets drafted, who gets called up. Nothing else matters.

quote:

Some parents or players get carried away, or have no perspective, but it all comes out in the wash eventually: Who makes the varsity team, who starts, who bats at the top, who has the stats, who gets a NLI, who gets drafted, who gets called up. Nothing else matters.

quillgirl, could you clarify your last post for me? Are you describing YOUR opinion that nothing else matters --- OR --- are you describing those parents and players that "get carried away"?
Thanks.
Fungo

quote:

Originally posted by quillgirl:
Funny thing is, it's been my experience that the non-travel parents often have a distorted perspective about their son's talent. I know many local parents who think their son is a one-of-a-kind stud based on their county and region, or even the local league. They aren't aware of all the other great players out there because they never see them, never see JR compete against them. Travel parents and players have seen the competition on a much broader scale and tend to have a better understanding of the level of available talent in the world. JMO.

I agree with your entire post, but wanted to comment, that the above has been my experience too. His birthday is in June, and last year he played in Cooperstown (talk about seeing a lot of competetion) and this year he is playing summer league at his high school. I don't know if he could have made the transition w/o playing travel.

The original premise - about perhaps falsely building up young hopes - does do a disservice to young players and their parents. We have seen several kids who are playing and have reached a plateau. They just can't keep up - they aren't pitching as well, can't handle hard hit balls, can't hit - whatever. They parents are heartbroken - "but last spring he had the third highest batting average..." ...