Division 3

MidAtlanticDad posted:

SluggerDad posted:

They do play actual games against actual college competition.    I've seen JV schedules that are as  many as 20 games and JV schedules that are as few as 6.  There is, by the way, no redshirting at D3 except for for injury related reasons. 

I thought they might keep them separate from the varsity team, and treated like a club. Thanks

Well in my brief experience they are treated a little that way.  At my son's school, the varsity outfield coach is the JV head coach.  JV  has twice weekly hitting and on field practice on its own.  Though the JV head coach conducts these, apparently Head Coach and Recruiting Coordinator/Assistant Coach frequently observe --at least so far.   The JV  lifts on it's own  (mainly to avoid overcrowding in the weight room).  But they also do practice with varsity at times, just not always.  For example, sometimes  all OF'ers--  JV and Varsity -  will practice together and just work on OF drills, separately from the rest of squad.   Sometimes the JV are asked to  show up to run bases when Varsity is doing infield, for examples.     Sometimes they seem to have "whole squad"  scrimmages in which the JV is included.  But some scrimmages are  for varsity only and JV are given the day off.   JV work varsity games in various capacities.  Some varsity are asked to work JV games.  Varsity pitchers --  especially those who need innings or need to work on something -- apparently  pitch JV games.  (JV roster is heavy with position players, very light on dedicated pitchers).     Some JV players may be called up to varsity because of injuries.  Some may just play their way onto varsity.   It's a little like two separate teams but more fluid.

RJM posted:

RJM posted:

MidAtlanticDad posted:

SluggerDad posted:

 JV teams are no lose propositions for coaches.  It enables them to have a pretty large total roster, while still giving the younger and  perhaps less ready for prime-time players some actual playing time, against actual college competition, rather than just practicing and suiting up and sitting and not traveling to away games.  

Are JV players considered part of the team, thereby losing a year of eligibility?

Any idea how many of those JV freshmen who didn't make the team as sophomores are still at the school?

The eligibility clock starts ticking. They have five years to play four. From what I've been exposed to (son's former travel and high school teammates) if D3 kids don't work out they bag baseball as opposed to transferring. I've seen some find a summer semi pro league to play.

 

In our family, baseball or not, you have four years to play  four.   If they need a fifth year, they have to pay for it themselves.   The only exception would be if they chose the JC route, but I don't see that happening.

Interesting stuff, Slugger, thanks for sharing.  It's  yet another reminder that kids need to go to schools where they'll be happy and do well academically.  I hope that's true for your son.

SluggerDad posted:

For example, sometimes all OF'ers--  JV and Varsity -  will practice together and just work on OF drills, separately from the rest of squad.

That definitely burns a year in D3. Thanks

JCG posted:

RJM posted:

RJM posted:

MidAtlanticDad posted:

SluggerDad posted:

 JV teams are no lose propositions for coaches.  It enables them to have a pretty large total roster, while still giving the younger and  perhaps less ready for prime-time players some actual playing time, against actual college competition, rather than just practicing and suiting up and sitting and not traveling to away games.  

Are JV players considered part of the team, thereby losing a year of eligibility?

Any idea how many of those JV freshmen who didn't make the team as sophomores are still at the school?

The eligibility clock starts ticking. They have five years to play four. From what I've been exposed to (son's former travel and high school teammates) if D3 kids don't work out they bag baseball as opposed to transferring. I've seen some find a summer semi pro league to play.

 

In our family, baseball or not, you have four years to play  four.   If they need a fifth year, they have to pay for it themselves.   The only exception would be if they chose the JC route, but I don't see that happening.

My son missed freshman year due to an injury. He has stayed for five years. With AP credit and a couple of summer school courses he graduated in three years. He will leave after this year with a BA and an MBA.

It's what the student does with his time. With 75% total scholarships college has cost me a lot less than I saved for (starting when he was born). For some kids if baseball spreads academics over five years the lightened per semester load allows the athlete to perform better academically. It took me four and a half years to graduate. There were two courses I couldn't take except in the afternoon. The other option was summer school. I took them in the fall of the 5th year.

One size doesn't fit all.

Redshirt freshman year is not the worst outcome, especially if you go in knowing you probably won't see significant action during that first year.  Having a fifth year - and going to a school that regularly accommodates fifth year seniors - can be a huge plus. 

Well that's true, and if you're leaving school after 5 years with an MBA obviously you've done very well indeed. My 2015 also plans to leave his school with a BS and an MS after 5 years, but he's paying for year #5 with loans. With the starting salaries in his field, paying them back should be no trouble at all.

2017LHPscrewball posted:

Redshirt freshman year is not the worst outcome, especially if you go in knowing you probably won't see significant action during that first year.  Having a fifth year - and going to a school that regularly accommodates fifth year seniors - can be a huge plus. 

Since the title of this Topic is Division 3, I will note that the only redshirt in D3 is for medical reasons. The freshman JV players at SD's son's school are using up 1 of their 4 allowable years of participation, regardless of how long they stay in school.

JCG posted:

Well that's true, and if you're leaving school after 5 years with an MBA obviously you've done very well indeed. My 2015 also plans to leave his school with a BS and an MS after 5 years, but he's paying for year #5 with loans. With the starting salaries in his field, paying them back should be no trouble at all.

I'm a proponent of working and gaining experience before grad school. I got my MBA at night and weekends over several years. My daughter did legal research for a law firm for two years before attending law school. But if baseball allows for going straight through and graduating with a grad degree I'm all for it.

JV teams at some schools, especially private schools, are often money-makers for the program.  More players means more students means more revenue.  I can't prove it but have been told at some schools, the baseball team receives more funding based upon number of players in the baseball program. I've argued this with some dads but IMHO, nobody goes to a school to play on the JV team their first year.  Players do start on JV's and end up on varsity, but a whole lot don't.   The stud  freshman coming in at your son's position won't be on the JV team.   BUT, if a kid is playing JV, enjoying himself, and getting his education, what's wrong with that? His resume will still say "Played 4 years of baseball at XYZ Tech", and any college sport  on a resume catches a lot of eyes come job interview time.

OP ,  2016 ED'ed at Tufts .... if you want to know how his situation unfolded  send me a PM

We hear a lot about ED with D3. In my opinion that is for the Highest Academic schools. There are plenty of other D3's with very Good academics and reputations that do not require ED. Many will ask you to apply Early Action. You can apply to as many universities as you wish Early Action. With my sons scores non of the schools he looked at were concerned with him not being admitted. Applying Early Action showed interest and the school was more likely to consider those students for academic awards and grants. 

My sons school has a JV team, but it is not publicized and there is no posted roster. They play quite a few games less than varsity. The players on JV are treated identical to the  Varsity players. They all lift together and practice together. The coach does not use his Varsity starting pitchers in JV games, because he needs those innings for pitchers who do not get time on varsity. Some players eventually move into starting roles some do not. Each year we have at least one freshman player become a starter. Most players get an opportunity on the spring trip. After the spring trip is over the roster is usually pretty set and everyone knows there roles. Players will still get some opportunities through out the season, but it is best to prove your worth before the spring trip is over. 

I know an NAIA school here in Ohio that has at least 40 players on there Varsity roster and probably another 40 on JV. The JV plays some of their games in the Fall. 

cabbagedad posted:

SD, not sure if this applies to the school you are talking about with the 2016 roster showing no frosh, but it is not unusual for schools to list only returners for a while during construction - of both team and new season's website roster list.

Yeah, that's right.  The frosh are now added, including a HS teammate of my son's

 I started my sophomore year at a D3 school but got cut in the middle of the season. I didn't play in any of the games but attended a few practices. I'm currently a junior academically. I'm trying to transfer to a school closer to my home because it would save me a lot of money. The school happens to be D2. Would I have to sit out a year if I want to play Baseball at that new school? Or could I play right away? Any feedback will help tremendously.

GMNY posted:

 I started my sophomore year at a D3 school but got cut in the middle of the season. I didn't play in any of the games but attended a few practices. I'm currently a junior academically. I'm trying to transfer to a school closer to my home because it would save me a lot of money. The school happens to be D2. Would I have to sit out a year if I want to play Baseball at that new school? Or could I play right away? Any feedback will help tremendously.

You will need an academic year in residence at the D2 school before you can play in a game, unless you qualify for a one-time exception.

http://www.ncaa.org/student-at...rrent/transfer-terms

BishopLeftiesDad posted:

I know an NAIA school here in Ohio that has at least 40 players on there Varsity roster and probably another 40 on JV. The JV plays some of their games in the Fall. 

Seems that D3 schools take quite a variety of  different approaches to both the varsity roster and the JV roster if they have one.  My son school only has 13 players total on the JV roster --  almost all are position players -- and the varsity roster is typically under 30 players.   This year it might be a little more, cause they are carrying, at least for the moment, a LOT of pitchers on the varsity squad.  Not sure that will last, though. 

OWU has a JV team as well, but you do not know you are on it till game time. They all practice together and are all in competition for varsity. OWU use JV as an opportunity to get playing time for kids who do not get playing time on varsity. The whole roster is required to attend and be in the dug out, and the head coach coaches jv as well.

Many schools handle it in many different way, SD is completely correct. When my son was being recruited some coaches talked about JV, while others did not. We never asked about it.  

Given what you guys have learned about the sizable rosters including JV squads, with reduced chances for playing time, do you think your sons would have opted for another college had you/sons known the details?

I'm probably the minority on this issue, but I think JV is a good thing, especially if you admit that your son is not going to play professional baseball. If JV and V train together and JV gives the bench players a chance to play, I don't see the downside of that. For one, I know my son would love to play on a weaker team rather than sit on a stronger team.

I know this thread is about D3 baseball, but it has focused on roster size and competition for play time.  I just want to say that D3 is not the only place this competition occurs.  In D1, rosters are limited to 35 players, but competition for ANY kind of play time is fierce.  It takes a lot to knock a prior year's starter out of their spot.  In D2 there are no roster limits and I don't believe there are any in NAIA or JUCO.  Many D2, NAIA and JUCO teams have a JV squad and big roster numbers as well.  Extreme competition for play time on any team in college is pretty much the norm...  It's not easy no matter where you go.  

Even with a roster limited to 35 players, only 8 can play as a starting position player and only one pitcher can throw at a time.  Therefore, you will always have 24 guys sitting on the bench.  All 24 of those guys are trying to get into the place that those 9 guys on the field are.  

Everyone moving on to play college baseball better be prepared to compete for a position.  Nothing is a given.  Whatever you get, you have earned.  Whatever you don't get, it's because someone else beat you out for it.  Every kid on the team was probably one of the best players in their conference/region/area in HS.  Every one of them has come into college thinking they are good enough to start.  Every year there are new freshmen and new JUCO transfers (for the 4 year schools) that are looking to be an impact player.  Every year, every player is competing to earn a spot or keep a spot.

Good luck to everyone in their pursuit to be an impact player on their team.  It certainly is a character builder - regardless of the level they play at.

@BBallman: Yes! And, exactly why all across this entire board there are comments like: Pick your school based on things other than ball.

We were pretty sure that our not-at-all-into-academics-son would be D3/JV Freshman year. We are stunned to hear him say, just 5 months into college: Well, Mom, the team is having a ton of issues since that cool coach left in June but I really like the professors. 

Whodathunk!

bballman posted:

I know this thread is about D3 baseball, but it has focused on roster size and competition for play time.  I just want to say that D3 is not the only place this competition occurs.  In D1, rosters are limited to 35 players, but competition for ANY kind of play time is fierce.  It takes a lot to knock a prior year's starter out of their spot.  In D2 there are no roster limits and I don't believe there are any in NAIA or JUCO.  Many D2, NAIA and JUCO teams have a JV squad and big roster numbers as well.  Extreme competition for play time on any team in college is pretty much the norm...  It's not easy no matter where you go.  

Even with a roster limited to 35 players, only 8 can play as a starting position player and only one pitcher can throw at a time.  Therefore, you will always have 24 guys sitting on the bench.  All 24 of those guys are trying to get into the place that those 9 guys on the field are.  

Everyone moving on to play college baseball better be prepared to compete for a position.  Nothing is a given.  Whatever you get, you have earned.  Whatever you don't get, it's because someone else beat you out for it.  Every kid on the team was probably one of the best players in their conference/region/area in HS.  Every one of them has come into college thinking they are good enough to start.  Every year there are new freshmen and new JUCO transfers (for the 4 year schools) that are looking to be an impact player.  Every year, every player is competing to earn a spot or keep a spot.

Good luck to everyone in their pursuit to be an impact player on their team.  It certainly is a character builder - regardless of the level they play at.

Excellent perspective & continued reminder, like the school as a student first.

Gov posted:

bballman posted:

I know this thread is about D3 baseball, but it has focused on roster size and competition for play time.  I just want to say that D3 is not the only place this competition occurs.  In D1, rosters are limited to 35 players, but competition for ANY kind of play time is fierce.  It takes a lot to knock a prior year's starter out of their spot.  In D2 there are no roster limits and I don't believe there are any in NAIA or JUCO.  Many D2, NAIA and JUCO teams have a JV squad and big roster numbers as well.  Extreme competition for play time on any team in college is pretty much the norm...  It's not easy no matter where you go.  

Even with a roster limited to 35 players, only 8 can play as a starting position player and only one pitcher can throw at a time.  Therefore, you will always have 24 guys sitting on the bench.  All 24 of those guys are trying to get into the place that those 9 guys on the field are.  

Everyone moving on to play college baseball better be prepared to compete for a position.  Nothing is a given.  Whatever you get, you have earned.  Whatever you don't get, it's because someone else beat you out for it.  Every kid on the team was probably one of the best players in their conference/region/area in HS.  Every one of them has come into college thinking they are good enough to start.  Every year there are new freshmen and new JUCO transfers (for the 4 year schools) that are looking to be an impact player.  Every year, every player is competing to earn a spot or keep a spot.

Good luck to everyone in their pursuit to be an impact player on their team.  It certainly is a character builder - regardless of the level they play at.

Excellent perspective & continued reminder, like the school as a student first.

You got that right!   Another thing to think about is whether it's a program with a  constant flood of transfers coming in each year.  I think that happens  a lot at the D1 and D2 level, and probably less at D3, but it does happen.  My son's school is an example.  Of 30 guys on the varsity roster this year,  8 are transfers  (though not all transferred in this year).  Thera are  4 JC transfers, 3 D1 drop downs and 1 D2 dropdown.   Point is it is  not just the guys recruited into the program as freshman either ahead of you or with you (or even behind you)  that you have to worry about.   If there is  a constant flood of guys transferring in, you never who you're going to be competing with each year.   You have to size up the competition anew each year. 

bballman posted:

I know this thread is about D3 baseball, but it has focused on roster size and competition for play time.  I just want to say that D3 is not the only place this competition occurs.  In D1, rosters are limited to 35 players, but competition for ANY kind of play time is fierce.  It takes a lot to knock a prior year's starter out of their spot.  In D2 there are no roster limits and I don't believe there are any in NAIA or JUCO.  Many D2, NAIA and JUCO teams have a JV squad and big roster numbers as well.  Extreme competition for play time on any team in college is pretty much the norm...  It's not easy no matter where you go.  

Even with a roster limited to 35 players, only 8 can play as a starting position player and only one pitcher can throw at a time.  Therefore, you will always have 24 guys sitting on the bench.  All 24 of those guys are trying to get into the place that those 9 guys on the field are.  

Everyone moving on to play college baseball better be prepared to compete for a position.  Nothing is a given.  Whatever you get, you have earned.  Whatever you don't get, it's because someone else beat you out for it.  Every kid on the team was probably one of the best players in their conference/region/area in HS.  Every one of them has come into college thinking they are good enough to start.  Every year there are new freshmen and new JUCO transfers (for the 4 year schools) that are looking to be an impact player.  Every year, every player is competing to earn a spot or keep a spot.

Good luck to everyone in their pursuit to be an impact player on their team.  It certainly is a character builder - regardless of the level they play at.

Also, don't assume because you are a top ranked stud you're going to start. I know a kid where a ranked team tried to hand him a starting position for three years. Each year by conference play he lost the job. On NLI signing day the coach called him the greatest player at his position the program had ever recruited.

Gov posted:

Given what you guys have learned about the sizable rosters including JV squads, with reduced chances for playing time, do you think your sons would have opted for another college had you/sons known the details?

 

I will tell it like it is and sometimes it is not pretty.  My son had a miserable freshman year.  He was told that he was one of 8 that the coach supported for admission at a very high academic D3, but when he got there 18 freshman showed up with the same story.  Their fall season is run by the senior captains - 2 teams of 25, which played games each weekend.  He was lucky just to get an at-bat each game.  They look at the upperclassmen first, local guys 2nd, big guys 3rd, and then everyone else.  My 5"9" son felt ignored all fall.   

Fast forward to the winter, reps were even harder to find yet he still consistently hit all of their pitchers indoors, but could not get any attention.  He has stated numerous times that he saw much better pitchers in HS and summer ball on a regular basis than most D3 pitchers in his conference.  Needless to say, he was not on the roster and had to play in 5 JV games.  He was humiliated.  He was offered D1 and D2 scholarships but chose his school for academics, and had HS and travel ball teammates who were not as good as him start on D1 teams as freshman.  He hit over .500 in the JV games with at least 1 extra base hit in each game, but the JV was treated worse than dirt -  No coaches at practices, head coach never at games no equipment, etc. 

He sincerely regrets the day he chose his school, but is staying there and thinks he will play this year.  He was the dominant offensive player this past fall, but still feels there is a chance he will be kept off the roster as he was told that despite his performance over 2 months in the fall, soft toss and pitching machine performance in the winter determines who will be on the roster (I am not kidding).  He concluded that the senior class from last year was not very good and that they conspired to keep down a few freshman at their positions in the fall.    They were gone this year and he made the most of his opportunity, so he is optimistic - but still can't understand where the coach is coming from and there is ZERO communication from the coaching staff.  Their best underclass pitcher (throws 92mph) transferred to a conference rival mid-year for the same reason. 

If he had it to do over again, he would have listened harder to whispers and gone to another high academic D3 or taken a scholarship shot with the D1 state school as it could not have been much worse.

Sometimes it just doesn't work out no matter how hard you work, how good your attitude is, and how well you perform.

HVbaseballDAD posted:

Gov posted:

Given what you guys have learned about the sizable rosters including JV squads, with reduced chances for playing time, do you think your sons would have opted for another college had you/sons known the details?

 

I will tell it like it is and sometimes it is not pretty.  My son had a miserable freshman year.  He was told that he was one of 8 that the coach supported for admission at a very high academic D3, but when he got there 18 freshman showed up with the same story.  Their fall season is run by the senior captains - 2 teams of 25, which played games each weekend.  He was lucky just to get an at-bat each game.  They look at the upperclassmen first, local guys 2nd, big guys 3rd, and then everyone else.  My 5"9" son felt ignored all fall.   

Fast forward to the winter, reps were even harder to find yet he still consistently hit all of their pitchers indoors, but could not get any attention.  He has stated numerous times that he saw much better pitchers in HS and summer ball on a regular basis than most D3 pitchers in his conference.  Needless to say, he was not on the roster and had to play in 5 JV games.  He was humiliated.  He was offered D1 and D2 scholarships but chose his school for academics, and had HS and travel ball teammates who were not as good as him start on D1 teams as freshman.  He hit over .500 in the JV games with at least 1 extra base hit in each game, but the JV was treated worse than dirt -  No coaches at practices, head coach never at games no equipment, etc. 

He sincerely regrets the day he chose his school, but is staying there and thinks he will play this year.  He was the dominant offensive player this past fall, but still feels there is a chance he will be kept off the roster as he was told that despite his performance over 2 months in the fall, soft toss and pitching machine performance in the winter determines who will be on the roster (I am not kidding).  He concluded that the senior class from last year was not very good and that they conspired to keep down a few freshman at their positions in the fall.    They were gone this year and he made the most of his opportunity, so he is optimistic - but still can't understand where the coach is coming from and there is ZERO communication from the coaching staff.  Their best underclass pitcher (throws 92mph) transferred to a conference rival mid-year for the same reason. 

If he had it to do over again, he would have listened harder to whispers and gone to another high academic D3 or taken a scholarship shot with the D1 state school as it could not have been much worse.

Sometimes it just doesn't work out no matter how hard you work, how good your attitude is, and how well you perform.

This is the sort of thing I  was curious about, thank you for the detail...  Few other questions more appropriate for Private Message, I'll PM you. 

Gov posted:

Given what you guys have learned about the sizable rosters including JV squads, with reduced chances for playing time, do you think your sons would have opted for another college had you/sons known the details?

 

Had a long talk with my son last night about just this question.   He definitely likes the school -- has made tons of friends, found a niche, and likes the professors and his courses.   He also seems to like the coaches personally and they actually seem to like his game quite a bit.  Still,  I wouldn't say that he is  completely happy with the baseball situation.   The main source of frustration is that there are a ton of upperclassmen ahead of him -- 9 to be exact.   That makes it a very bad year to be a freshman OF at his school.   He might feel differently if there weren't so many upperclassmen to compete against.   (This year's juniors and seniors had it much easier as frosh. there was a dearth of upperclassmen outfielders the years they came in so some of them are three and four year starters.) 

His biggest complaint though is that he  wishes that they paid more attention to the JV squad.  They do have their own coach, and they get two dedicated JV only practices a week  -- which gives them more reps.   So that's something.  But he says their emphasis is definitely not on development.  "If you can't do the job, they will find somebody else who will" was how he described the vibe he gets from every coach in the program. 

He's trying to make the most of it, cause that's the kind of guy he is -- doesn't complain, puts his head down and goes to work.   He says he plays every day like it might be his last day and so  leaves everything on the field everyday.    I think if you go into a program  like his and you are not among the few frosh who are going to get serious playing time,  that's really all you can do and let the rest take care of itself. 

Life is  precarious for many players.   Seriously, can you imagine being the 9th outfielder on the varsity depth chart?  Not much fun, unless you just like hanging with the guys.  Really can't figure out why a coach would keep 9 outfielders even if they can all play -- which, according to my son -- they definitely can.  But I guess there is no real down side for the coaches, though, to stockpiling all the talent he can. 

Life is especially  precarious for frosh.    There  were 14 frosh in the program  last year between JV and Varsity  --  5 on varsity, 9 on JV.  Of the 5 on varsity 4 returned and 1 transferred.  Of the 9 on JV only 1 returned.  1 additional sophomore from last year's JV was  promoted to varsity.  Of the 8 non-returning JV frosh, one seems to have transferred, the other 7 tried out but were cut in the fall.    My sense is that they were squeezed  out by the combination of a very large bunch of returning varsity guys, (22)   a decent number of talented transfers (4)   and the desire to have some freshman to look over --  something like 17 between JV and  Varsity.  

No doubt, this  year's frosh will suffer some serious attrition next year  -- though at some point they will need to develop some of the current crop of  younger position players  unless they plan to keep bringing in transfers or else they are going to have a very young team in a couple of years .  There are  just 3 sophomore and 1 frosh position players on the varsity this year.   (there are 9 JV freshman position players). 

Would it have been better at some of his other alternatives?  Hard to say.   He's definitely in a tough situation, where he has to prove himself, but isn't being given all that much of an opportunity.  

Main advice from all this -- buyer beware -- very, very much so. 

This thread seems to be heading this way so I will ask it now. My player is only a D3 level player so DI and II won't be options. He's not Ivy League but also not a JC student.

My question is how do you know when/how to talk about going to a "better" school (better fit, better academics, better reputation) where his only option would be Club baseball instead of trying for a D3 school? 

Slugger and HVB, very sobering stuff, thanks.   Sounds both kids are at least at schools that are a good match academically.  Slugger, did you have any indication at all going in that there would be so many players?  Other than the fact that the program  is high-achieving and hopes to be top dog in the whole division?  Maybe that's red flag enough  and  a kid who wants to be sure of seeing the field is better off going to a middle-of-the-pack school.   Sounds like HVB had at least heard whispers; but his situation also sounds a good bit different.  But like I said, very sobering stuff.   I admire both boys for their stick-to-it-iveness.   Put into a similar situation, I think my kid might bail and concentrate on just being a student.  And I'd support that decision. 

SluggerDad posted:

Gov posted:

bballman posted:

I know this thread is about D3 baseball, but it has focused on roster size and competition for play time.  I just want to say that D3 is not the only place this competition occurs.  In D1, rosters are limited to 35 players, but competition for ANY kind of play time is fierce.  It takes a lot to knock a prior year's starter out of their spot.  In D2 there are no roster limits and I don't believe there are any in NAIA or JUCO.  Many D2, NAIA and JUCO teams have a JV squad and big roster numbers as well.  Extreme competition for play time on any team in college is pretty much the norm...  It's not easy no matter where you go.  

Even with a roster limited to 35 players, only 8 can play as a starting position player and only one pitcher can throw at a time.  Therefore, you will always have 24 guys sitting on the bench.  All 24 of those guys are trying to get into the place that those 9 guys on the field are.  

Everyone moving on to play college baseball better be prepared to compete for a position.  Nothing is a given.  Whatever you get, you have earned.  Whatever you don't get, it's because someone else beat you out for it.  Every kid on the team was probably one of the best players in their conference/region/area in HS.  Every one of them has come into college thinking they are good enough to start.  Every year there are new freshmen and new JUCO transfers (for the 4 year schools) that are looking to be an impact player.  Every year, every player is competing to earn a spot or keep a spot.

Good luck to everyone in their pursuit to be an impact player on their team.  It certainly is a character builder - regardless of the level they play at.

Excellent perspective & continued reminder, like the school as a student first.

You got that right!   Another thing to think about is whether it's a program with a  constant flood of transfers coming in each year.  I think that happens  a lot at the D1 and D2 level, and probably less at D3, but it does happen.  My son's school is an example.  Of 30 guys on the varsity roster this year,  8 are transfers  (though not all transferred in this year).  Thera are  4 JC transfers, 3 D1 drop downs and 1 D2 dropdown.   Point is it is  not just the guys recruited into the program as freshman either ahead of you or with you (or even behind you)  that you have to worry about.   If there is  a constant flood of guys transferring in, you never who you're going to be competing with each year.   You have to size up the competition anew each year. 

Absolutely correct, SD.  Slightly off-topic but your post nudged me to take a look...

..the D2 league my son plays in has six schools with between 25-30 transfers/D1 drop-downs (4 others have 18+).  The school that has 30 has only 6 others who are straight from HS.  3 are freshmen and only one made it to junior or senior college year out of HS.  Ouch.

 Imagine being a kid from the area who is a good player, who's budget says State School and would love to go to that fairly-close-to-home school.  This is the reality that the majority of California HS players face.

BROC,

If your son wants to play college baseball (non-club), your family will build a list of schools that fits with his academic and baseball abilities.  Then he'll "target" both the Admissions staff and the baseball coaches at those schools. 

If your son wants to play club baseball, your family will build a list of schools that fits with his academic profile and that offer club baseball.  Then he'll "target" the Admissions staff at those schools.  Please note that playing club baseball in college is not a guarantee at some schools, i.e., they have tryouts too.

In my experience, it hasn't worked out well for players/families who think they might want to play college baseball but aren't sure.  Most players are at a talent level where they need to pursue the coaches/schools vigorously in order to have an opportunity to play.  I'm not suggesting your family is at this point. I'm only saying this to highlight a player/family has to be "all in" to make college baseball happen.  Most players are not being chased, they're doing the chasing.

Soooo, this ends up being a very candid family discussion.  Do you want to play "intercollegiate" baseball in college?  If not, do you want to pursue club baseball in college (where you can still play club teams from other schools)?  We had this discussion with our 2016.  Go to Mom and Dad's alma mater and tryout for club?  Go to a different type of school and play intercollegiate baseball?  My 2016 emphatically chose the latter.  He has teammates who are pursuing the other path.  

Lastly, the idea of "better" school is relative.  My undergrad is from a top 25 national university and they're in the top 30 pre-season baseball poll.  My 2016 will end up playing baseball at a top 50 national liberal arts college that happens to be the best fit for him.  There are great places (fit, academics, reputation) where my 2016 had offers to play and was admitted including the school he chose. 

Your son has a high GPA and an excellent ACT score already.  He can have places to play if he is "all in" to pursue them.  And it's also great if he doesn't want to do that.  Tough decision.  Good luck!

Roster size was an important factor for me, not so much my son. He has always earned a starting role no matter where he played. 

I reviewed the roster of every school that was interested in him, as far back as I could go, or to a coaching change. I reviewed roster size, retention and Avg recruiting class size. I kept these all in a spread sheet. In some cases I compared results with every school in that same conference. I wanted to see how they compared. 

Originally his first choice was not the school he attended. He wanted to go to a different school. I made him keep his options open and always have at least four options. He did not make his final decision until the end of May beginning of June his Senior year. In fact he made it at the final Baseball banquet. His HS coach wanted to know if he made his choice and he refused to tell the coach until he could talk to Mom and Dad, He wanted us to know first.  Well he did not choose his initial first choice in the end. Both coaches recruited him very well, it really came down to how the financial aid office treated him. At his first choice school they kept stringing him along, We may be able to get you more money.  They would not let him delay a deposit, when the other schools did. In the end he chose what was his second choice all along. He always preferred the coach at his second choice anyway. We have talked about this many times over the last four years, and he never regretted his choice. There was never a I wish moment. 

His school never mentioned JV during the recruiting process and we never asked. The coach was very honest, in fact the last conversation he put his hands on his shoulders, looked him in the eye, and said:

"you need to understand it is my job to get you to want to come to my school. I may seem like a nice and cool guy, but if you come to campus, I will be very hard on you. I will work you hard and it will not be fun."

None of the other coaches ever had that talk with him that I over heard.

So no my son never regretted his choice. 

cabbagedad posted:

SluggerDad posted:

Gov posted:

bballman posted:

I know this thread is about D3 baseball, but it has focused on roster size and competition for play time.  I just want to say that D3 is not the only place this competition occurs.  In D1, rosters are limited to 35 players, but competition for ANY kind of play time is fierce.  It takes a lot to knock a prior year's starter out of their spot.  In D2 there are no roster limits and I don't believe there are any in NAIA or JUCO.  Many D2, NAIA and JUCO teams have a JV squad and big roster numbers as well.  Extreme competition for play time on any team in college is pretty much the norm...  It's not easy no matter where you go.  

Even with a roster limited to 35 players, only 8 can play as a starting position player and only one pitcher can throw at a time.  Therefore, you will always have 24 guys sitting on the bench.  All 24 of those guys are trying to get into the place that those 9 guys on the field are.  

Everyone moving on to play college baseball better be prepared to compete for a position.  Nothing is a given.  Whatever you get, you have earned.  Whatever you don't get, it's because someone else beat you out for it.  Every kid on the team was probably one of the best players in their conference/region/area in HS.  Every one of them has come into college thinking they are good enough to start.  Every year there are new freshmen and new JUCO transfers (for the 4 year schools) that are looking to be an impact player.  Every year, every player is competing to earn a spot or keep a spot.

Good luck to everyone in their pursuit to be an impact player on their team.  It certainly is a character builder - regardless of the level they play at.

Excellent perspective & continued reminder, like the school as a student first.

You got that right!   Another thing to think about is whether it's a program with a  constant flood of transfers coming in each year.  I think that happens  a lot at the D1 and D2 level, and probably less at D3, but it does happen.  My son's school is an example.  Of 30 guys on the varsity roster this year,  8 are transfers  (though not all transferred in this year).  Thera are  4 JC transfers, 3 D1 drop downs and 1 D2 dropdown.   Point is it is  not just the guys recruited into the program as freshman either ahead of you or with you (or even behind you)  that you have to worry about.   If there is  a constant flood of guys transferring in, you never who you're going to be competing with each year.   You have to size up the competition anew each year. 

Absolutely correct, SD.  Slightly off-topic but your post nudged me to take a look...

..the D2 league my son plays in has six schools with between 25-30 transfers/D1 drop-downs (4 others have 18+).  The school that has 30 has only 6 others who are straight from HS.  3 are freshmen and only one made it to junior or senior college year out of HS.  Ouch.

 Imagine being a kid from the area who is a good player, who's budget says State School and would love to go to that fairly-close-to-home school.  This is the reality that the majority of California HS players face.

Cabbage, from what I've seen here in CA, with UCSD being the only exception, D2 school rosters are totally dominated by JC transfers and D1 dropdowns.  No doubt there are some other more limited exceptions, and I have heard anecdotally of at least one successful  school in NorCal that usually gives one or two freshman a shot per year, but they have to be genuine studs.   For that reason, and because our son shares our desire for him to have the 4 year residential college experience, we don't consider D2 an option at this point.

I know a NAIA near us that has 64 listed on their online roster... "only" 39 with numbers.....

JCG posted:

Slugger and HVB, very sobering stuff, thanks.   Sounds both kids are at least at schools that are a good match academically.  Slugger, did you have any indication at all going in that there would be so many players?  Other than the fact that the program  is high-achieving and hopes to be top dog in the whole division?  Maybe that's red flag enough  and  a kid who wants to be sure of seeing the field is better off going to a middle-of-the-pack school.   Sounds like HVB had at least heard whispers; but his situation also sounds a good bit different.  But like I said, very sobering stuff.   I admire both boys for their stick-to-it-iveness.   Put into a similar situation, I think my kid might bail and concentrate on just being a student.  And I'd support that decision. 

Well, we did get some indications that many are called but few are chosen at this program, but the picture wasn't really complete until he showed up on campus.  Turns out there were a ton of frosh who were to some degree recruited.  Many were cut in the fall along with almost all of the returning JV guys, as I mentioned.  There were also actually a couple of returning varsity players who were cut as well, by the way. Some apparently recruited transfers were also cut.    It just turns out to be an extremely competitive program that seems to grind through a lot of guys to find ones that they think can compete.   We  frankly didn't really have a sense of how competitive it would be until the beginning of school.   

 I was worried more than my son about the JV thing. I was especially worried by  the  fact that there would be so  many returning outfielders both this year and next.  I told him I worried that he might be assigned to JV cause of it and that it looked like for most players that was a ticket to oblivion.  But  I think he was flattered by the amount of attention they gave him in recruiting and the fact that it is an ambitious top-tier program. Add in his invincible belief in his own talent and work ethic.....

From everything he says,  he seems to be playing his tail off  They do seem  to honestly  like his game.  So he does feel like maybe he might have a future there.  If he does,   he will be absolutely thrilled -- that's the upside.    But it's extremely clear to him that  nothing is guaranteed and the competition will always be fierce there -- that's the downside.

Very much a high risk, high reward situation.  You seem to have to be an absolute stud there to break in early,  The  one frosh position player on the varsity this year hits bomb after bomb and is a definitely a real stud, according  to my son. If you're not that,   you have to have a high tolerance for risk and a willingness to bust your tail, sometimes on your own, if you want to try to break in.    

But no, we did not ask enough  hard questions.  

Slugger, thank you for your candor!

I've probably posted too many times on this topic, so why not add one more thing. 

The player (and family) have to ask the coach lots of questions in advance, including "how many players will you roster?", "do you have a JV team?", "how many players will be at my position?", "how many freshman are you recruiting this year?", "how many have committed already?", "where do I rank relative to the guys you are recruiting, i.e., am I an impact player?"

And the player/family need to look at the current and past rosters.  Talk to other players and families about their experiences.  See the coach and team in action at a game or practice. 

It's a lot of work.  It can be uncomfortable.  It's really important at all levels, not just D3.

This has been one heckuva thread.  Thank you for sharing details... This is beneficial to my 2018.

Well done.

David

Having had a son who played at a top D3 program and later served as their recruiting coordinator, I think there are a number of factors to highlight:

1.) D3 covers a very, very wide range of schools, from very large State schools in NJ, Wisc. and NY to very small and rural schools in Kentucky, GA and other places. Because of the wide variability, common themes to recruiting are challenging. In my view,  how our son's get recruited, who recruits them and the opportunities to play may be quite different and need to be appreciated and approached differently based on the D3 program and coaching staff involved.

2.) Branson's point about visiting the school and watching games and practices should be a very top priority. In addition, the player and parent needs to see with a very objective perspective, not through rose colored glasses.  Our son walked into a situation of a program on the rise which had won their conference for the first time and returned every starter except LF, and our son was not an outfielder.  He ended up getting a pinch hit opportunity in game 1, entered the second game in the middle innings and then started every game for the rest of that season and the next 4 years.

3.) College programs, including  at successful D3 schools, thrive on competition.  The coaches are constantly recruiting to upgrade each position. The coaches are constantly "coaching" to challenge each returning player to be better players each year, each month, each week. Recruiting better players and pushing returning players to be better is usually an important factor in W's and L's.

4.) College coaches often love the "energy" and "competition" which freshman instill to a team.  No matter how we cut it, some upperclassmen can get mentally stale, disinterested or overly confident. 

5.) D3 programs which have strong regional or national academics plus strong baseball can be a major attraction (as this board and the apparent success and proliferation of Headfirst camps can attest).  It is not uncommon at schools which are in high demand for far more players to show up as freshman than could be predicted during the recruiting process. 

6.) Parents and especially players need to listen carefully to what is being said by the coaches during recruiting.  That information needs to combine with what was seen watching practices and games and all information processed without rose coloring.  Is this coaching staff truly expressing an interest in you?  Are they saying things which show they know the quality of your play, where your fit with that quality and what needs to be improved to get to the level of play to be on the field as a freshman? Are they spelling out what opportunities exist during your freshman year...if you improve in the following....?  Are  you asking the questions which will find out if the coach knows who you are as a player, why he likes you, how does that "fit" with his team and what  improvement is needed (specifics)?  Is the coach truly recruiting your son (regular contact with enthusiasm) or are we making something "more" of less.

7. ) Just last night I listened to an interview with our son's former HC.  They finished 3rd in Appleton in 2015 and return every starting position player.  Despite that fact, he talked about this being a new year, confirmed the challenges for his freshman recruits to get on the field, but confirmed some by name will be on the field, with his job being to find them situations where that happens.

8.) No matter how hard we might try, college baseball is not usually a place where a parent can shield, protect or maneuver their son.  I am thinking that rather than having a buyer beware perspective, it is more like buyer be aware!  In the world of college and especially college baseball, our son's need to block out those things they cannot control, such as transfers, the number of recruits, etc.  They have to control what they can, which is wanting to compete, to be a great teammate, and to do everything (and more) in the weight room, with early and later work, and during practice to be better tomorrow than they were today. Most successful college programs and coaches find spots during the rigors of a college baseball season for players who will produce and it does not matter whether they are a senior or a freshman. That opportunity might come in April rather than February.  Whenever it does, it is the responsibility of the player to be ready to produce when his chance arrives.

SluggerDad posted

  We  frankly didn't really have a sense of how competitive it would be until the beginning of school.   

 ....  I think he was flattered by the amount of attention they gave him in recruiting and the fact that it is an ambitious top-tier program. Add in his invincible belief in his own talent and work ethic.....

 

But no, we did not ask enough  hard questions.  

Those comments and questions are pretty much a recurring theme for all college baseball players regardless of the level. 

Nice post Infieldad. 

First time poster here - thanks to all for an excellent thread.

I'll add something from my college experience (played Ivy football after turning down D1 offers).  Many of the happiest kids I knew went into college football with zero expectations.  They were constantly evaluating whether the time commitment was worth the opportunity cost.  Their perspective was that football had helped pave the way to a great college, and that anything else was gravy.  Heck, freshman year one kid quit during the middle of a game when we witnessed a particularly gruesome injury.

I've been trying to prepare my 2020 son to think the same way. When we talk about colleges he asks me about their academic reputations (and sometimes the girls), but never the baseball team.