Do Kids Change?

As I've mentioned in previous posts, my son couldn't find a team at age 11 because he was told his arm was weak. He has been long-tossing nearly daily and working on his game since, and his arm is now his strongest tool. He has recently committed to pitch D1 baseball (LHP). I think it can be a powerful motivational tool when someone says you can't do something.

Very interesting post! In the direct circle of friends/ball players, they have not changed at all.

Like you I have seen these kids play ball 100s of times.

Sad part - I know of two kids with great potential who didnt work at the game and still dont......

Definitely. While some players get a bit better or worse, for the most part you watch the same traits over and over again.

Generally speaking I'd agree with you - but as much or more from the personality side than the skills side -- though I agree with that as well. Kids that were gamers still are, those that weren't as "gamer" still aren't.

Good post. I’ve seen many cases of what you are saying but that is the way it is. Players are different and we can’t (and shouldn’t) set one standard for the many different types of baseball players. I know this is hard to accept but it’s OK if a player doesn’t want to sacrifice things in his life to take his game to the next level. Every step up the ladder in baseball eliminates a large group of players for various reasons. Some players WANT to become the best they can be. They seek out quality instructions, practice in the off season, focus on getting better, and accept the challenges of the best teams and the toughest colleges in the nation. They thrive on these challenges. They improve. They LEARN how to do the things they need to do to take the game to the next level and move up. Other players may not have the physical talents to play at the next level or they may not want to make baseball more that a recreational sport. Some want to improve but can't and some can improve but won't. They usually quit playing (or are asked to quit) and simply do other things. Included in these players are the ones that cannot hit the curve ball or cannot run fast or has the weak arm. In sports no two players have the same physical talents and no two players put forth the same effort to improve. What may come easy for one player may be a huge challenge for another. One player may be obsessed with getting better and another may look at baseball as nothing more than fun and games. Thank goodness there is no established benchmark that defines the relationship between the game and the player.

What becomes more vexing is trying to understand why the highly talented player has no desire to take his game to the next level --- or watching the untalented player works his tail off attempting to take his game to the next level only to fall short.
Fungo

I think that the main reason why kids don't improve with the years is the poor knowledge of coaches at LL and HS, and the difficult for parents to get private teaching. If a player repeat his bad habit for decades, will be very difficult to correct then.
About arm, speed, good hands, ect...players can get better with hard work and practice, but mainly those are natural conditions.

I can't say that I can agree with the premise either. Some of the "studs" from the 9/10, 11/12YO all-stars have long since fallen by the wayside. Some of the kids who were "weaker" players are now playing at the top level of the game.

Heck, I have even seen a kid who wasn't considered much of a player as a HS sophomore develop and make all-district as a junior. He came on during his junior year like you wouldn't believe. Led his team in batting average, if I recall properly.

My son could barely hit the broad side of a barn when he was growing up. As a middle-infielder, his bat was definitely his weakest tool. That started to change around age 15, and his skills really ramped up at age 17 when he found an instructor who knew him and his particular strengths/weaknesses/needs like the back of his hand. His hitting ability is now on par with his fielding ability -- something we never thought we'd see.

I agree with the premise that some of the players still make the same mistakes, but some of them are environmental not physical. Most are still the same type of players, but their limitations were mental not physical.

My older son's contemporaries have covered the spectrum.

A little regarded pitcher who didn't leave his small town team until senior year, who threw 86 and was abused by his legion coach, has a great senior year in college, wins the era crown in DI, is drafted and is now playing pro baseball.

A light throwing small kid, gets a DI ride and is now the Friday starter heading into his senior year.

The three best athletes in the area, and 5 tool players, are working and playing beer league baseball.

The best player in his LL is now on trial for murder.

My take is that the one's who have success at a young age, have to have someone around them who inspires them to keep working and getting better. The game seems to come to easy to them at an early age, and they get a false sense of reality. The players who have to work at a young age, continue to work as they get older.

Talent and work ethic are the two most important tools.

.
OUTSTANDING thoughts, Fungo...

quote:

...Every step up the ladder in baseball eliminates a large group of players for various reasons.

....Some players WANT to become the best they can be. They seek out quality instructions, practice in the off season, focus on getting better, and accept the challenges of the best teams and the toughest colleges in the nation. They thrive on these challenges. They improve. They LEARN how to do the things they need to do to take the game to the next level and move up.

...Other players may not have the physical talents to play at the next level...or they may not want to make baseball more that a recreational sport. Some want to improve but can't and some can improve but won't....

...In sports no two players have the same physical talents and no two players put forth the same effort to improve. What may come easy for one player may be a huge challenge for another. One player may be obsessed with getting better and another may look at baseball as nothing more than fun and games. Thank goodness there is no established benchmark that defines the relationship between the game and the player.

What becomes more vexing is trying to understand why the highly talented player has no desire to take his game to the next level --- or watching the untalented player works his tail off attempting to take his game to the next level...

...only to fall short.

44
.

Speaking from my experience with my son who went Division I , I can say this---he wanted it because he wanted to prove he could do it and not just be a stud at a lower Division


The ones who go on need to have the DRIVE and DESIRE--- for me those two assets are the difference makers and not being afraid to fail because those that succeed don't think they can fail

In general the premise is probably true but not 100% acroos the board. I have seen several athletes step it up a notch. One even got drafted in the 2nd rd after being cut from local AAA city team and not standing out in HS.
There are awlways exceptions to the rule. I also think that most studs at early years do dissappear while some that struggle succeed.

I have personally seen young kids who were not among the best (at the time) turn out to be the very best and most successful of their group.

IMO, those with strong arms, good hands, etc., will continue having those traits, without injury. But some of those who didn't show those traits at a younger age do develop them. Sometimes surpassing their peers.

There is natural ability, there is hidden ability, and there is developed ability. Those who end up the very best might have all three.

Oh- PGStaff - I sent you a PM on another topic.

Rob,
Those are very interesting observations and a wonderful question.
If you look at progress/changes from little league to high school, I can understand how you could arrive at the assessment you do.
In my view, the way the game is played in college and beyond dictates that most players change and adjust, or they just cannot compete. Admittedly there are extremely talented players to whom that does not apply.
From what I have seen, you hardly even recognize most players and the way they are playing when they are 19/20 as compared to the way they played when they were 16/17. The talent with which the game is played after high school and the speed of the game after high school, in my view, forces most to change and adjust their approach and skills to continue to succeed. To turn this around, if a player is trying to play the game at 19/20 with the same approach they did when they were 17/18, most either will be struggling mightily or realizing they cannot play.

Rob,
Good topic.

About 10-11 years ago when everyone of my son's teammates were having pitching and hitting lessons we were told not to do anything with him.Let his natural ability and instincts, desires work, don't try to change anything. We followed that advice. But that doesn't mean it would be the best advice for others.

I have seen so many players take lessons after lessons to improve, play on the best teams, go to the fanciest camps, and never reach what some many think is their potential. Is this because there comes a point where whatever you do will not make him a better player?

I have also seen many players grow up and reach their potential after the HS experience, with good coaching in college or in pro ball. Many players who never seemed to be even a pro potential become a first rounder, surprising many that they never thought he was "that good".

I have see too many parents push their players to be more than they might ever be, sometimes it works out well other times it doesn't. Most young players have no idea what it is to "reach the next level". Parents that put their own desires aside for what their children really want usually find that their children grow up and become smart and will move to that next level successfully, if they want to. Yes, kids do change, and those that are pushed to their limit too often lose the desire and those that are allowed to play and have fun surprisingly move ahead. As PG states, some move ahead on natural ability, some on hidden ability (physical and mental maturation) and some on developed ability.

I have to agree with CD, you can't make generalizations because all players are different and all players progress and grasp things differentely. And all players have different desires mature differently.

And I agree with infielddad, how the game is played after HS forces players to make adjustments that will move them ahead or not move them ahead.

There was a topic about not where you begin but where you end up.

Yes I do see many of the things mentioned here. I have also witnessed kids who were rarely used as pitchers in Little League become great pitchers at the HS level. My son has always been motivated to work harder than everyone else since he is a late bloomer. He still has the hardest work ethic than any kid on his HighSchool team, this isn't a bias opinion either. I have seen the talented mature kids reach their peak at 14 and give up baseball because they didn't work hard enough. Only two kids from my son's Little League team are currently playing organized ball.

Some kids change for the better and some kids change for the worse. One kid in particular was the best Little Leaguer and was always told he was the best and never really worked hard at practices. Fast forward today and he was kicked off his team for disciplinary reasons and grades. HE was never told that he was doing things the wrong way, well it caught up to him.

What I do like to see are all those kids in Little League who played RF and got one at bat become studs in HighSchool. I have spotted a few and they outworked the so called All Stars in baseball and in life.

Nice posts in this thread.

Do kids change? It is largely a question of perspective. It's often easier to recognize tendencies because the mind is predisposed to see them. Changes, and especially subtle ones, are harder to recognize because they're not anticipated. The more cynical we get, the more invisible the progression becomes.

Can kids change? Lots of variables here, but Jerry's point that there are different kinds of abilities is well-taken. Some HS studs stop playing because they lack the ability to adjust, or like TPM noted they get pushed too hard and lose desire.

As infielddad says, after high school it's much more apparent that kids have to step up their game to compete. Yes kids change.

Rob
Darn it! You made me think and I don't like to do that on Fridays. After rehashing years of baseball around in my peanut brain, my experience is similar to yours. I will say, many many more kids have fallen by the wayside and very few have gone from average to stud. I suppose, as Fungo stated, its a natural progression up the ladder.

I left something out.

I have seen REALLY talented young players play too much, pitch too much, etc. and not reach their potential due to burn out, injury or overuse.

JMO.

I'd have to say that kids do change - and those that don't simply leave the game.

One area that I have been informally asking about over the years has been the progression of kids from 12 Year old all star teams to High school rosters. It started because I, like many other youth baseball managers, heard the refrain from parents whose kids did not make the allstar team or who sat the bench on the all star team that "their baseball lives are over". So I thought I would ask around to see what really happens.

So I asked the basic question - how many kids from the 12 year old all star team from your son's 12 year old year are playing baseball as Freshman in high school? And how many freshman did not make their all star team - but are still playing now?

The average response is roughly 50% of 12 year old all stars are still playing 3 years later. And >50% of the freshman did not make the all star team.

So can kids change? Absolutely. They are going through "THE CHANGE" from 12-15 - and many of them emerge on the other side as very different athletes - and baseball players.

Do they continue to change? Absolutely - those who work at their games continue to grow - and those who don't fall by the wayside.

BTW - of my son's 12 YO team, 4 of 12 will play as Seniors. The rest have moved on to other things.

08

It could be that the change happens even before HS, but because of daddy-ball, the elite travel team rosters stay the same from year to year. Once the kids get a fair shot from the HS coach, things change. Sometimes a lot.

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
There is natural ability, there is hidden ability, and there is developed ability. Those who end up the very best might have all three.

Very good point, and probably the best reason to explain the varying answers.

Everyone develops (physically/mentally) at different rates...some who were early to physically mature were the 12-14 year old studs, but were caught/surpassed by those who developed later in life.

The PRIMO stud of my son's 14U team is EXACTLY the same size (with roughly the same skills) today as a high school graduate. He's still quite good (attending a local JUCO to play ball), but at the younger age it was a rare game indeed when he wasn't the best player on the field...usually, by a factor.

Do they change? Just take a picture of you kid in a baseball uniform from when he was 12 or 13 and then compare them to what they are at 20ish. Are they the same kid, mine was round and pudgy at 13, he is now 6'3" and 235 of muscle.

Has his baseball changed, of course, he is faster, stronger and throws harder. He is clearly more experienced.

He was good at 12/13 relative to his peers, however no one considered him a stud. Did he change, yes; most was physical. However the desire that he had which was masked by "baby fat" has not changed and he made the decision to continue with a game that he loves.

The kids that my son played with that are still playing are not always the best players. However, they are all the players with the heart, determination and desire to keep baseball as part of their lives.

One thing not mentioned is that kids who play together for years seem to accept that so and so is the home run guy and so and so is the big pitcher. The kid then seems to fill his nitch as the weak fielder who gets put where most people don't hit.

It usually isn't until a kid like this is playing with a different group of kids that they seek out a new nitch.

The kids who have had it easy will expect to have it easy and still be successful. They are oftentimes the ones who fall behind.

The kids who practice the plays from the highlight reel are the ones who progress and strive to reach new heights.

Probably the biggest hindrance for kids today is that they can't just grab their stuff and go out and play.

Sure, kids change as they grow up.

But sometimes the talent was always there, and some just didn't (or couldn't) see it.

One factor not discussed above is the tendency of people who know ridiculously little about athleticism generally or baseball specifically to make definitive pronouncements about young kids, their potential and their future paths. Often it is the product of petty jealousy over another parent's kid, an immature need to pretend to be an expert and draw attention, or other things that cloud judgment sometimes. I can't tell you how often I've heard the classic "Little League parent" talk down another kid on the field so they could feel better about their own wonderful son. It's ugly but it goes on all the time.

I love it when a kid proves those types wrong. But it takes a lot of self confidence and hard work to tune out negative adults (when you're only a kid yourself) and see just how far you can advance yourself. It's amazing so many do overcome it. I wonder how many get off track by making the mistake of believing what they are told about themselves by people who don't know their head from the proverbial hole in the ground.

The flip side is the kid who has limitations, or at least areas where improvement is needed, but he is always told how wonderful he is. This kid will often conclude that he is already the best, therefore he doesn't have to work hard to improve. Usually these kids get rude awakenings in high school when they step off dad's travel team for the first time and get evaluated by someone disinterested.

My point being, sometimes when a kid outstrips our expectations, or underperforms our predictions, it wasn't because the kid changed. Sometimes the talent or the limitations were always there and, for whatever reasons, we adults simply did not recognize them.

This has been a very interesting discussion.

I thought about that question of 08's - how many of my son's 12 year old LL all star team are still playing baseball. Ours must be an odd group - of the 11 kids his age on his team, 10 of them are still playing, headed into junior year of high school.

So, that is the "cohort" from which I posed my question. And the reason I thought it was an interesting question was because these 10 kids have not changed all that much as ball players.

I asked the question because I thought (hoped?) that what I have observed with these 10 kids is an anomaly. Lot of others have watched far, far more kids grow up in baseball, so have a lot larger sample sizes to judge.

Very interesting.

Rob:

I also find it interesting to watch the kids that my son played LL with. His all-star team has been very successful moving on to play not only baseball but other sports.

Of the 12 kids (I know where 9 are today) on his LL allstar team, they have gone on to impressive schools and great athletic achievements.

C - Basketball - Penn
1st - Baseball - Trinity
2nd - Football - Stanford
SS - Tennis - Navel Academy
3rd - Baseball - Brown
LF - Baseball - Hamilton College
CF - Crew - Yale
RF - Rugby - UCLA
P - Baseball - Portland

When these kids played ball as LLers they were not just athletic, they worked incredibly hard both as a team and as individuals. I always believed that their LL all-star experience was their entree into higher more competitive athletics and academics.

I have mentioned this before in a couple of threads. The team my son played with in Cooperstown has 12 of the 14 kids still playing ball in college. This was a group of kids from Gaithersburg Maryland that showed a lot of talent back then and apparently still has it now.

I know this is very unusual but even back then I think we knew that this was an extraordinary group. They probably only placed in the top third that week but I bet there isn't another team from that year that have more kids still involved. Did they change? Sure. They kept getting better. I was lucky to have been able to watch.

jmepop:

I bet as a group and individually that group of kids works harder not just at baseball but academics and life than most of the other boys your son grew up with.

I firmly believe that kids that play on a disciplined youth program that had expectations of excellence take that experience with them and apply it first to the classroom and then in life.

That is why the "dads" on this board love and respect not only their kids but our son's teammates.

PG's story is an excellent example of why we should not judge a kid's talents at age 12. I think this lesson will become more important as "select" ball evolves and seeps down into ever-younger age brackets, which it has. How much is talent, and how much is daddy's money?

If stars at age 12 are still stars at age 18, how much of this is due to ability, and how much is due to early maturing which has resulted in an advantage of playing time? The politics of select-team donors? I will stick my neck out and say at least half the players on "All-Star" teams at age 12 are being subsidized by either money, daddy's influence, or the benefit of early maturing. This half may go into college ball, but reality will hit home very quickly. Doesn't work with the college coach. In the end, they are doomed by their own daddy's B.S. or were fooled by their own bodies thinking they were better than they were.

The other half, the good half, were undoubtedly positively influenced by a father who himself had succeeded in the game. Good for them!

For those (underdogs) that had compete against this preconceived notion of talent, who sat on the bench through youth ball and much of high school--who had to win the jobs of those kids "subsidized" by donor-daddies--overcoming the odds is sweet vindication. They perservered, undoubtedly, through hard work and heart.

Sorry, Kremer, I am far too sentimental in my belief that most any kid that picks up a glove and works his tail off may have a chance in baseball. It's the American way.

Bum you say:

quote:

we should not judge a kid's talents at age 12

Then you take a 180 degree stand and judge 50% of the players when you say:

quote:

I will stick my neck out and say at least half the players on "All-Star" teams at age 12 are being subsidized by either money, daddy's influence, or the benefit of early maturing.

I think we all judge players' talent at all ages. Each parent MUST accurately judge their son's ability in order to help him. I had to judge my son's talent when I put him on a 13u travel team when he was 11. My goal when I took my son to his first showcase at age 14 was to judge his talent against the other showcase participants. Not only are we required to judge players talents, we are required to take action based on that judgment.

However, if we are trying to pre-judge a player's ability at age 12 and attempt to pre-determine where he will be at 18 then we should be fortune tellers instead of baseball parents.

Hmmm...Do kids change? The answer is simple, all kids change as they constantly are in the process of redefining themselves right in front of us. Now sometimes those changes are not for the best, and we all have stories about that, and other times it is because of poor influences or parenting, but "change is the ONLY constant.

On the subject of baseball, PG had the definitive answer...

*Originally posted by PGStaff:
There is natural ability, there is hidden ability, and there is developed ability. Those who end up the very best might have all three.*

Of our hardworking LL all-star team, all advanced to their high school varsity. Our son got the D1 ride this year, and another kid will get one next year. Three others will play JC ball. The rest will not. All the parents at the time believed everyone was going to the major leagues. Kind of silly but typical across the United States. I am not making fun of the dream because I think it is important to dream!

Most kids did not fall off because they had poor swings, weak arms or did not grow, but because of poor work ethic and a commitment to get better which lasted more than baseball season. Like Tiger Paw Mom, I can think of one who was totally over-pitched because he was the biggest at the earliest age, and now will never take the mound again. Another important factor was that the lack of work ethic would spill over into the classroom as they did not work at academics hard enough to advance.

When I have conversations with parents about their kids, I admire the kids with little or no baseball talent who went on to star in the classroom, or as a musician or actor. I worry about the one-dimensional focus in my own son's life and hope the lessons he has learned in sports will stand him in good stead wherever his path may lead and I know the only thing I can count on in his life is change.

Not to sound like a broken record, but I posted this story in a previous thread, and I think it deserves some consideration on this topic, "Do Kids Change". Is there is a strong correlation between the Chinese Bamboo Tree and some of the points we're discussing here? You decide.

THE CHINESE BAMBOO TREE:

"Let me tell you about this tree. Year after year, farmers water their Chinese Bamboo seeds. They cultivate them and nourish them and wait for them to grow. But, for ten years, when the average observer looks down, all she will see is barren ground. And she might well assume that the tree has not grown."

"That's because during these ten years, the Chinese Bamboo Tree only grows underground -- developing a strong web of intertwined roots, a subterranean fortress, a foundation."

"And then, that very next year, when the foundation is in place, when the roots are deep and strong enough, the tree bursts forth like a rocket -- one-hundred feet into the air."

.....Pat Riley, Head Coach, Miami Heat

This has been a good thread and one that made me go back and re-think through years and years of memories.
There's one thing that stands out in my mind most and that's the kid who wasn't necessarily a " star " player but who you just had a gutt feeling about. The kid that you just knew if he stuck with it, he would one day get his lucky break. The kid who may not have been the most talented on the team, but the kid who worked his fanny off and who was behind his teammates 100%. The kid who arrived early and left late. The kid with the big heart. The kid who always ran out to be the first one to rake the field. The kid who struck out time and time again,..only to go up to the plate again & again, with rhino determination every time, believing.
Then one day it happens. All the hard work pays off & they knock one outta the park,..or they make that big play. The crowd goes wild.
To be there at that very moment,...it's as if it happens in slow motion. To see that kids face after all these years, ( you just know inside his head he's thinking, " I knew I could do it!!" )...to be witness to such an event, is nothing less that a gift handed down from the heavens.

Yes, kids change,..the naturally athletic ones are usually still pretty athletic, but it's the one's who have worked hard,..the ones who it didn't come naturally to, the ones that stuck with it because of pure love of the game,..those are who and what I tend to remember most, God bless em'!

I'm my son's case, the answer is definitely yes, kids can change. But the biggest change was in his attitude or desire to get better. Once he committed to getting better, he got better.

At 12, my son was the kid who was the last kid in the order, and I would be surprised if he even touched the ball more than a couple times with the bat. He may have had one hit all year. I thought he would be done playing baseball after little league.

At 14 he decided to get good at baseball and started working hard at it. That season he hit over 0.500.

At 15 he rode the bench on his high school freshman team. Spent hours everyday on the field practicing to the point where his teammates joked that he lived at the baseball field. As 14 year old, he had trouble with the inside pitch. At 15 he consistently drove the inside pitch to the fence. Learned how to lay off low and away. Lead his summer team in hits and extra base hits. Was weak in the field, but worked hard to become decent because he realized he needed to be a complete player to keep playing.

So I think kids can certainly change, but only when they are ready to. Some figure it out early that change is part of continuing to play. Some never figure it out.

It is called committment---them that wants it gets it---them that don't disappear from the scene

Shortstop Mom,

You captured the emotion of what I was trying to convey. Very nice post.