Thanks for the advice. Being on the front end of the process is a little stressful. HSBBW posts have been very helpful in sifting through the experiences of others.
OS8... You caught me in a bald face lie. The best I could do was 18 pitchers for Texas, Cal state Northridge,USC and UCLA. I'll try to do a better job in keeping it real
This is something else that happens to coaches. They may see a player at a combine or showcase and say "hey, I like this kid's glove, or I like his bat, or I dig his pitching,,,,,, BUT, ,,,,,, MANY, MANY, MANY, MANY times when a kid is asked to come to a camp at the school, the coach remembers the kid and then proceeds to watch him at the camp and says, "wow, I'm glad I asked him to come to our camp because he is not the player I thought he was, in fact, he's probably not going to even play college ball". Stuff like that. This happens a bunch and it's sad but true,,just like when you were in Little League coaching and you saw a kid at tryouts and he looked great in the cage and then we he came to practice you are saying, "OMG, what is this?"......UGH, what have I done?????
SH, your post reminds me of back in HS during summer ball where a kid look great in tryouts on the infield, throwing bbs to 1st, working on dbl plays, knocks the cover off of the ball during ABs and looks like he might be drafted directly out of hs. However, when they get in a game situation, everything changes.......can't get the easy roller, not focused on the batter that legs one out at 1st. When he then faces a pitcher that does not throw down the middle and waste high, goes on to strike out because he is not disciplined at the plate.
BTW.....This can also go for pitchers as well..."Coach he looked great in the bull pen but when he got in the game he somehow lost it."
IMO, you would expect and want some of these players to execute at a key point during a game which can make a positive impact on its direction. Surely there is some intimidation going on for freshmen but overall I am sure once the season starts I agree with TPM and Buzz, it does not matter the $$$, who can execute and help us win.
BTW.....This can also go for pitchers as well..."Coach he looked great in the bull pen but when he got in the game he somehow lost it."
IMO, you would expect and want some of these players to execute at a key point during a game which can make a positive impact on its direction. Surely there is some intimidation going on for freshmen but overall I am sure once the season starts I agree with TPM and Buzz, it does not matter the $$$, who can execute and help us win.
quote:Originally posted by dswann:
OS8... You caught me in a bald face lie. The best I could do was 18 pitchers for Texas, Cal state Northridge,USC and UCLA. I'll try to do a better job in keeping it real
swann, roster size and game play are two different things........
Texas 2005 9 pitchers participated
Texas 2006 13 pitchers participated, 4 of them threw a combined 16 innings
Texas 2007 13 pitchers participated, 4 of them threw a combined 14 innings
Historical stats tell the truth versus a posted roster.
What you will see offensively is usually 7 guys get the most at bats and about another 5 splitting the rest.
Teams can generally function with 25 players with 4-5 outfielders/DH, 4-5 infielders, a couple catchers and 13-14 arms.
Your 18 pitchers in 2008 for Texas has 4 kids who posted a combined 4 innings.
Whether the rosters are 35 or 45, the player breakdown posted above and the distribution of playing time is about the norm.
Of those 18 pitchers, none were graduating seniors, 4 left for proball, 9 are on the 2009 roster, and the other 5 left the program or transferred.
This brings up another point.
Sometimes coaches don't really spend enough time watching a player. That is why, in my opinion, I am not into coaches recruiting from DVDs and recruting websites unless they use that and do further investigating of the player. If using a recruiting website or service(such as the one shown in this topic), ask if they have any relationships with any coaches. Inquire if they have the resources to recommend a player other than the video (can they evaluate talent). If recruiting from showcase information, mkae sure those showcase folks can evaluate talent. The bad part is that you see the player in one dimension, you don't get to see him in practice or in the dugout, which can tell a lot about a player.
Some coaches have scouts checking up on them, but I don't think that I would want my son to play for anyone unless they have actually seen him play or he has spent time with in person, either on an unofficiial or official visit.
I know in son's case, he watched him twice within a year and had people watching that son wasn't aware of, plus recommendations from reliable sources and follow up visits even after he was signed. He also told us that he watched him in the dugout, how he related to his teammates and body language when approached by his coaches. Of course some are better at it than others, that's why you don't see a lot of transfers at many programs. Not because they over recruit, but because they take thier time at doing their job, which means getting out there to watch players, finding out what type of teammate he will become to his team (chemistry)and not recruting from behind a desk. Team chemistry is a big key to a programs success, and I know some coaches who work real hard at matching personalities and will pass up a more talented player for one that is a true team player.
Regardless of what you get from the recruiting process and your relationship to the coach prior to coming to the program or what you may have heard or not heard, most will find that the first day you set foot on the field, the honeymoon is over. This is particularly true in cases where the program produces winning results year in and year out, those programs are and coaches are winners for a reason. You'll find most of them to be eccentric, hard nosed get in your face type of guys and run their practices and works out like boot camp. Very quickly one finds that the locker room is not lined with gold and the field a bed of roses.
The player calls home, this is nothing like I expected. Well son, what DID you expect?
Sometimes coaches don't really spend enough time watching a player. That is why, in my opinion, I am not into coaches recruiting from DVDs and recruting websites unless they use that and do further investigating of the player. If using a recruiting website or service(such as the one shown in this topic), ask if they have any relationships with any coaches. Inquire if they have the resources to recommend a player other than the video (can they evaluate talent). If recruiting from showcase information, mkae sure those showcase folks can evaluate talent. The bad part is that you see the player in one dimension, you don't get to see him in practice or in the dugout, which can tell a lot about a player.
Some coaches have scouts checking up on them, but I don't think that I would want my son to play for anyone unless they have actually seen him play or he has spent time with in person, either on an unofficiial or official visit.
I know in son's case, he watched him twice within a year and had people watching that son wasn't aware of, plus recommendations from reliable sources and follow up visits even after he was signed. He also told us that he watched him in the dugout, how he related to his teammates and body language when approached by his coaches. Of course some are better at it than others, that's why you don't see a lot of transfers at many programs. Not because they over recruit, but because they take thier time at doing their job, which means getting out there to watch players, finding out what type of teammate he will become to his team (chemistry)and not recruting from behind a desk. Team chemistry is a big key to a programs success, and I know some coaches who work real hard at matching personalities and will pass up a more talented player for one that is a true team player.
Regardless of what you get from the recruiting process and your relationship to the coach prior to coming to the program or what you may have heard or not heard, most will find that the first day you set foot on the field, the honeymoon is over. This is particularly true in cases where the program produces winning results year in and year out, those programs are and coaches are winners for a reason. You'll find most of them to be eccentric, hard nosed get in your face type of guys and run their practices and works out like boot camp. Very quickly one finds that the locker room is not lined with gold and the field a bed of roses.
The player calls home, this is nothing like I expected. Well son, what DID you expect?
quote:Regardless of what you get from the recruiting process and your relationship to the coach prior to coming to the program or what you may have heard or not heard, most will find that the first day you set foot on the field, the honeymoon is over. This is particularly true in cases where the program produces winning results year in and year out, those programs are and coaches are winners for a reason. You'll find most of them to be eccentric, hard nosed get in your face type of guys and run their practices and works out like boot camp. Very quickly one finds that the locker room is not lined with gold and the field a bed of roses.
I have to agree with you on that
On most rosters you will see only 4-6 pitchers put in most of the work. The ones with the bulk of the work are those that have the stuff to be starters, plus physically able to go the distance. Freshman who will eventually be starters may put in more work in relief or possibly as a closer. Most don't have the physical stamina to go 6-7 innings in a college game first year. I might be leary of a coach telling me that he sees a freshman as a true starter, for most, it's physically impossible to go the 5 innings you need to get the decision.
I want my player on a team where there are plenty of pitchers, then I know he won't be worked anymore than needed. I don't want my son playing for a team that needs him on the weekend then puts him into beat the larger D1 during the week. Case in point, a young pitcher from a smaller D1 up in the carolinas that often played large programs during the week, the freshman pitcher was over used, over used as a sophmore as well, early last year projected to be a first rounder, TJS his draft year. Shame on that coach.
My son pretty much was in good condition as a freshman, but very rarely as a starter could he go past 5. By his junior year, as a weekend starter after two full years of conditioning, he was able to go farther into the game. Unfortunetly, this is where I think that pitchers get injured in college, they are pushed or push themselves to the point where injury can occur (breakdown in mechanics when tired or telling the coach he's not tired) and too early into their college careers. I don't think it's a coincidence when you see a young freshman go a complete game one year and then have issues the following season. Complete games are for those that are phycially able to handle it and good coaches know when to stop it. One of the reasons why most milb teams will not allow their starters to pitch a complete game, even working on a nono.
Ever wonder why an older pitcher who may not have the talent over a freshman puts in more work, not only more experienced but better physical condition than a young freshman.
I want my player on a team where there are plenty of pitchers, then I know he won't be worked anymore than needed. I don't want my son playing for a team that needs him on the weekend then puts him into beat the larger D1 during the week. Case in point, a young pitcher from a smaller D1 up in the carolinas that often played large programs during the week, the freshman pitcher was over used, over used as a sophmore as well, early last year projected to be a first rounder, TJS his draft year. Shame on that coach.
My son pretty much was in good condition as a freshman, but very rarely as a starter could he go past 5. By his junior year, as a weekend starter after two full years of conditioning, he was able to go farther into the game. Unfortunetly, this is where I think that pitchers get injured in college, they are pushed or push themselves to the point where injury can occur (breakdown in mechanics when tired or telling the coach he's not tired) and too early into their college careers. I don't think it's a coincidence when you see a young freshman go a complete game one year and then have issues the following season. Complete games are for those that are phycially able to handle it and good coaches know when to stop it. One of the reasons why most milb teams will not allow their starters to pitch a complete game, even working on a nono.
Ever wonder why an older pitcher who may not have the talent over a freshman puts in more work, not only more experienced but better physical condition than a young freshman.
quote:Originally posted by ClevelandDad:quote:Regardless of what you get from the recruiting process and your relationship to the coach prior to coming to the program or what you may have heard or not heard, most will find that the first day you set foot on the field, the honeymoon is over. This is particularly true in cases where the program produces winning results year in and year out, those programs are and coaches are winners for a reason. You'll find most of them to be eccentric, hard nosed get in your face type of guys and run their practices and works out like boot camp. Very quickly one finds that the locker room is not lined with gold and the field a bed of roses.
I have to agree with you on that
My good friend JBB and I spent some time discussing that over lunch a few weeks ago.
quote:Case in point, a young pitcher from a smaller D1 up in the carolinas that often played large programs during the week, the freshman pitcher was over used, over used as a sophmore as well, early last year projected to be a first rounder, TJS his draft year. Shame on that coach.
I know who you are talking about. Mid-90's was no problem for that kid. He has since transferred to Texas A&M. Boyd Nation has shown abuses in some of these programs. I don't know if he keeps those stats anymore.
The easy answer to this question is that yes, some coaches do lie.
Most do not. In most cases, disappointments occur for all of the reasons stated above.
But there are coaches who will shine you on to get you there, knowing full well that your role will be substantially less than represented, or that competition for your slot will be stiffer than you might have been led to believe.
It's important to check out the reputations of the coaches and programs you're talking with, so that you can get a reality check before you commit. This place is a great way to seek out information of that sort.
P.S.
I did have to laugh about the tales of the kids who look so good at first glance, only to fall on their faces as the process wears on. You do realize, that's the problem coaches face with so many parents. The parents see only the stud player. They never see the difficulties, therefore, they blame the coach for not valuing their kid. I have to believe this goes on at the college level also, though it's harder to get a uniform in the first place at that level.
Most do not. In most cases, disappointments occur for all of the reasons stated above.
But there are coaches who will shine you on to get you there, knowing full well that your role will be substantially less than represented, or that competition for your slot will be stiffer than you might have been led to believe.
It's important to check out the reputations of the coaches and programs you're talking with, so that you can get a reality check before you commit. This place is a great way to seek out information of that sort.
P.S.
I did have to laugh about the tales of the kids who look so good at first glance, only to fall on their faces as the process wears on. You do realize, that's the problem coaches face with so many parents. The parents see only the stud player. They never see the difficulties, therefore, they blame the coach for not valuing their kid. I have to believe this goes on at the college level also, though it's harder to get a uniform in the first place at that level.
TPM... Great post's, wonderful insight. So, if the coach from dream school comes calling and says. "I see you as my Tues. starter" pray he's lying.
Your example of the pitcher from the Carolinas that was over used, more than likely played summer ball.
What did your guy do during the summer?
Your example of the pitcher from the Carolinas that was over used, more than likely played summer ball.
What did your guy do during the summer?
He failed to tell you they don't play on Tuesdays !
My son was a tuesday starter as a frosh as his team always played 5 games a week. The 5 games a week, usually begans 3-4 weeks after season began. By that time, he had already put in innings in relief or maybe in one close situation.
Some of Clemson's toughest games are weekday games, UGA, South Carolina, Coastal, College of Charleston and that pesky little Elon.
These also weren't one game per season but sometimes a series of 2,3 or 4 games, so you would have to face them possibly twice but Clemson usually had enough arms (they build their strength of program on pitching) That's where you got your learning in, but in those weekday games sometimes it took 4-5 pitchers to get the job done if the pitchers were young freshman. So my son's duites were start weekday, and BP was done in a weekend game, one or two innings and he did very well in those releif innings because most of those conference teams weren't familiar with him. Lots of programs will not use their future starters in their most important games, conference and playoffs until their third year. That's how it's done at Clemson(or was done while son was there),not because you didn't have the talent, but because you just couldn't go the distance or they didn't want you to pitch a lot against their most important games until you had to or could go deep. If there was a major injury you had no choice but to step up earlier. Even though son had to go longer into a game, he found some of the teams easier than those weekday opponents. Also, sometimes it takes a coach a season or two before he decides what role you will fill, depending who is on the roster. Lucky for a program if they can find a true closer, Josh Fields at UGA as an example. Fortunetly my son went to a program with a pitching coach that knew how to use pitchers effectively. That doesn't always happen, some programs lose their way, johhny all staff becomes the norm.
As a frehsman he logged 78 innings, the most by a Clemson freshman since 2000, and because of that it was decided he needed summer off and didn't take his cape assignment.
As a soph he still filled many rolls, starter, reliever, closer but only logged 58 (learning to manage his game more effectively and a lot of luck) which allowed him to head off to the cape. So that brought him to around 88-90 between season and summer and he did not have to participate in fall games but an inning here or there late fall practice. He logged 99 his last year, his one and only complete game that year. I think that he should have been taken out but they allowed him to remain, and after that in pro ball, after two ankle sprains that year his arm began feeling funky. His last college appearance was IMO a nightmare. He had had it by then.
I am not sure what the pitcher did from the other program other than pitch too much. I think that he did head to the cape one summer but left. CD knows who I am talking about. He transfered after TJS. Good for him.
I also agree with Midlodad, coaches know full well who they are recruiting and who will put in more time on the mound than others, who will be a starter and who will be relief or who will go in as a situational guy only. They have too much experience to recognize the differences. Sometimes their starters fall into different roles, as in the case of Moskos, who was recruited as a starter, then fell into the closer role only to be a starter as a junior.
Sometimes it just doesn't work out, as in the case I saw a transfer power righty who came as a closer but couldn't close a game unless we were winning. The parents blamed the coaches, he couldn't adjust to closer mentality, but the word was out if you couldn't close one inning how could you pitch 5-7 effectively? This was also a case of an ERA leader with an overpowering FB in a weaker conference coming to a much more difficult situation where everyday guys hit the 94-95mph FB that comes in right over the plate each and every time and the coaches knew what they were doing, the parents trashed them all over the internet.
If that coach sees your son as a weekday starter he wouldn't be lying. Your son still has to earn that role,but understand that for most freshman pitchers that is the role they begin with, on purpose. As I stated earlier, trust is important, but only YOUR player will determine where he will find his role, depending on his talent and hard work to win that role. That has absolutely nothing to do with trusting coaches, but trust in yourself and what you know you eventaully are capable of and not capable of and accept that role, never bite off more than you can chew.
The problem is not coaches lying, but reality.
Some of Clemson's toughest games are weekday games, UGA, South Carolina, Coastal, College of Charleston and that pesky little Elon.
These also weren't one game per season but sometimes a series of 2,3 or 4 games, so you would have to face them possibly twice but Clemson usually had enough arms (they build their strength of program on pitching) That's where you got your learning in, but in those weekday games sometimes it took 4-5 pitchers to get the job done if the pitchers were young freshman. So my son's duites were start weekday, and BP was done in a weekend game, one or two innings and he did very well in those releif innings because most of those conference teams weren't familiar with him. Lots of programs will not use their future starters in their most important games, conference and playoffs until their third year. That's how it's done at Clemson(or was done while son was there),not because you didn't have the talent, but because you just couldn't go the distance or they didn't want you to pitch a lot against their most important games until you had to or could go deep. If there was a major injury you had no choice but to step up earlier. Even though son had to go longer into a game, he found some of the teams easier than those weekday opponents. Also, sometimes it takes a coach a season or two before he decides what role you will fill, depending who is on the roster. Lucky for a program if they can find a true closer, Josh Fields at UGA as an example. Fortunetly my son went to a program with a pitching coach that knew how to use pitchers effectively. That doesn't always happen, some programs lose their way, johhny all staff becomes the norm.As a frehsman he logged 78 innings, the most by a Clemson freshman since 2000, and because of that it was decided he needed summer off and didn't take his cape assignment.
As a soph he still filled many rolls, starter, reliever, closer but only logged 58 (learning to manage his game more effectively and a lot of luck) which allowed him to head off to the cape. So that brought him to around 88-90 between season and summer and he did not have to participate in fall games but an inning here or there late fall practice. He logged 99 his last year, his one and only complete game that year. I think that he should have been taken out but they allowed him to remain, and after that in pro ball, after two ankle sprains that year his arm began feeling funky. His last college appearance was IMO a nightmare. He had had it by then.
I am not sure what the pitcher did from the other program other than pitch too much. I think that he did head to the cape one summer but left. CD knows who I am talking about. He transfered after TJS. Good for him.
I also agree with Midlodad, coaches know full well who they are recruiting and who will put in more time on the mound than others, who will be a starter and who will be relief or who will go in as a situational guy only. They have too much experience to recognize the differences. Sometimes their starters fall into different roles, as in the case of Moskos, who was recruited as a starter, then fell into the closer role only to be a starter as a junior.
Sometimes it just doesn't work out, as in the case I saw a transfer power righty who came as a closer but couldn't close a game unless we were winning. The parents blamed the coaches, he couldn't adjust to closer mentality, but the word was out if you couldn't close one inning how could you pitch 5-7 effectively? This was also a case of an ERA leader with an overpowering FB in a weaker conference coming to a much more difficult situation where everyday guys hit the 94-95mph FB that comes in right over the plate each and every time and the coaches knew what they were doing, the parents trashed them all over the internet.
If that coach sees your son as a weekday starter he wouldn't be lying. Your son still has to earn that role,but understand that for most freshman pitchers that is the role they begin with, on purpose. As I stated earlier, trust is important, but only YOUR player will determine where he will find his role, depending on his talent and hard work to win that role. That has absolutely nothing to do with trusting coaches, but trust in yourself and what you know you eventaully are capable of and not capable of and accept that role, never bite off more than you can chew.
The problem is not coaches lying, but reality.
With the advent of the showcase era, has the college recruiter’s job become easier or harder? Do they use the showcase to make initial reviews and then follow up, or is it the other way around? Do they still care as much about makeup as they once may have now that they see many more players than they used to be able to? Do they spend the same amount of time finding out about the kid’s social background and his attitude now with the early verbal and showcase era?
What about the results of college recruiters, are they more successful in the showcase era? I know we continue to have perennially successful teams and players, but do you feel as I do that the overall college game has become more competitive with the ability to see so many more players and match them to various program needs?
Just some questions I have that may be somewhat related to this discussion.
What about the results of college recruiters, are they more successful in the showcase era? I know we continue to have perennially successful teams and players, but do you feel as I do that the overall college game has become more competitive with the ability to see so many more players and match them to various program needs?
Just some questions I have that may be somewhat related to this discussion.
quote:So, if the coach from dream school comes calling and says. "I see you as my Tues. starter" pray he's lying.
dswann - I know you meant that tounge and cheek but if your kid is a pitcher, I think you want him to pitch. I know TPM and I disagree on this one a little bit. If the coach (at a program we were interested in) told my son, he projected him as a Friday starter his freshman year, we would both be overjoyed. That does not mean that research should not be done on how pitchers are used.
To quote TPM:
quote:I am not sure what the pitcher did from the other program other than pitch too much. I think that he did head to the cape one summer but left. CD knows who I am talking about. He transfered after TJS. Good for him.
This particular pitcher was the best pitcher in the conference the day he was recruited - a bonified freshman Friday starter and all-american. Where he got in trouble imho, was he would pitch on Friday and then they would sometimes throw him on Tues or Weds to beat a team like Clemson or some other ACC school. He would then be back on the mound again on Friday. This did not happen all the time but whenever that program needed a win, that kid seemed to be pitching. Two years ago, he opened the conference tournament with a win. Their radio announcers were saying that if his team made the championship game, he would be the starter on two days rest. Fortunately, they did not make the tournament final. Unfortunately, he had TJ surgery the following year. Sometimes injuries are due to bad luck however. In this case, I think it was improper use of the pitcher and hence why he has since transferred.
That is exactly what happened to the pitcher. He was relied on too much. Talent wise he actually belonged in one of the better programs, but I heard from a very good friend of his HS coach that he needed to work harder in the classroom.
CD,
My first season as a college parent I will admit that I would have liked to have seen my son pitch weekends, but in looking back, I am very glad he didn't. If I thought for a minute he had no future in bb, then it might not have mattered. As a high velo pitcher, we stayed clear of anyone who mentioned being a weekend guy right away, that translates into a lot of work over 3 years. Ask anyone, after a while, for most, it takes it's toll. Pitchers arms are not indestructible. Especially the ones who pitch with high velocity.
It might be hard for someone whose son doesn't pitch to understand that, and son most probably could have gone to a place where he would be the weekend guy, but he may have also ended up like the player mentioned above. I have been watching pitchers of big programs for years, most of the guys in the mid 90's who pitch around 100 innings a year who don't experience problems in college have issues in proball. Not all pitchers fall into the David Price work horse category.
Besides, as a weekday and weekend pitcher, he faced almost every team at least once that Clemson plays year in and year out on a regular basis. That included, ACC, SEC, Big South, Southern and Pac10.
CD,
My first season as a college parent I will admit that I would have liked to have seen my son pitch weekends, but in looking back, I am very glad he didn't. If I thought for a minute he had no future in bb, then it might not have mattered. As a high velo pitcher, we stayed clear of anyone who mentioned being a weekend guy right away, that translates into a lot of work over 3 years. Ask anyone, after a while, for most, it takes it's toll. Pitchers arms are not indestructible. Especially the ones who pitch with high velocity.
It might be hard for someone whose son doesn't pitch to understand that, and son most probably could have gone to a place where he would be the weekend guy, but he may have also ended up like the player mentioned above. I have been watching pitchers of big programs for years, most of the guys in the mid 90's who pitch around 100 innings a year who don't experience problems in college have issues in proball. Not all pitchers fall into the David Price work horse category.
Besides, as a weekday and weekend pitcher, he faced almost every team at least once that Clemson plays year in and year out on a regular basis. That included, ACC, SEC, Big South, Southern and Pac10.
Opportunity is all you need.
OS that was a lie to 24 of the 25 he called.
Show me the money.
Show me the money.
quote:Originally posted by Backstop-17:
With the advent of the showcase era, has the college recruiter’s job become easier or harder?
First off, not all coaches are good recruiters. This is a job all to itself, head coaches pay people lots of money to do this and for most, it is a 12 month job, besides assistant coaching.Some HC do their own recruiting as well or teach their assistants. There are some who are much better at it than others and it shows in the success of their program. Some only recruit within state, or close to home, some don't even have to leave their office because they know the top recruits in the country want to come play for them. There are recruiters who know that they may like a player, but the HC may not.
This year I bumped into a coach up in Jupiter I know who I have never seen. He told me now he has to work harder because of the HC at UF. He doesn't get his pick anymore of the creme of the crop from Florida. He knows he has to now search beyond the state.
FWIW, the coach who recruited my son saw him in the fall of his junior year, and it took almost a year for them to get to know each other. At son's former school, lot of early committs from those that attended their camp year after year. My son would not commit to anyone unless he felt comfortable and that meant meeting the HC and future team members, just like most coaches don't offer on the spot as some may think they do. For some it's a long process, both for coaches and players.
How do you know if a coach is being truthful? If he has a proven position player that will remain for another 2-3 years, he won't offer another top recruit that position, perhaps another player as a backup or one to fill the role after the player leaves. Some coaches don't recruit by position, but by infield/outfield experience. Catchers get converted to pitchers. Most (except pitchers) will tell you they very rarely end up playing the position they played in HS. Years ago with unlimited roster numbers this may have been the case, with only 28 scholarship players it's more important to try to get it right the first time and that may mean taking more time to offer as you need to figure out who might go where. Those that didn't recruit well, would just tell everyone to show up, do well and maybe the job is yours. That's not being honest in recruiting asking players to show up when you have no spots for them.
Just because a coach calls 25 pitchers July 1 doesn't mean he's a liar. If he tells them they are his top choice and tells the 24 others than he's a liar. This is an opportunity he now has to speak to the player, get his feel for what he wants to do and his personality as well. Will HE fit into my program? Will HE get along with the other guys? Will HE get along with my head coach? Will HE go to class? My son is a closet clown, very reserved and serious but a keen sense of humor, his coach (also one with humor) knew right away that he would fit in with the rest of the clowns on the team but knew he would be serious when he needed to be. This is good recruiting. Coaches also look for those who are leaders and those that will follow. The fit for them should be just as important as it is for our sons.
Recruiting is highly competitive. Telling a player you’re interested in that they were your #25 choice, could only be described as being stupid! Sometimes #25 becomes #1. Sometimes the “true” #1 doesn’t pan out. All these coaches have seen that happen. Why tell someone you might want to sign, that you don’t think he is in your top 5 list and lose him to someone who tells the kid he’s #1 on his list. We always tell players to go where they feel they are the most wanted. The coach has to make players he is interested in feel they are wanted. He is not going to tell someone he has no interest in that they are #1. Yes, there can be many #1s, if you look at it that way. I think usually when coaches say a player is #1, he really is (one of the #1s). You don’t have to attach a number to show you’re interested in a player. You need more than just one #1 each year to be a big winner. You need as many #1s as you have room for and you can get.
Yes, the real truth is that #10 is #10 on the list, but if a couple sign and the rest sign elsewhere, #10 becomes the new real #1. Yes, college coaches do have to string kids along a little at times. Players string college coaches along at times, too. On the other hand, there’s the actual offer that can answer all the questions. If it’s 25%... chances are your not really #1 on their list, but they are serious about you. However, sometimes the money just isn’t there. It was spent before the college recognized your talent. That is where it can get tough to know what to do.
All that said, the most successful recruiters (the top programs) don’t need to lie. They just work harder than the others. Recruiting and scouting are much the same thing, the harder you work, the more players you see, the better you are. We could easily make out a list of the top recruiters in America. It’s pretty simple, they’re the ones we see the most. Same thing goes for scouts.
For those who don’t believe that… Watch and see what is going to happen at Florida International. Of course, most people who follow this stuff closely know what is going to happen at the U of Florida. Also over the next few years you might want to keep an eye on Liberty. Michigan is seeing the results. So is Virginia, then there’s Baylor, Georgia, San Diego, UNC, UCLA, USC (both of them), ASU, LSU, OSU, Vanderbilt, Clemson, Coastal Carolina, Stanford, Miami, Georgia Tech, Texas, Ole Miss, etc. I could name many others as well. These are some of the great recruiters! They all have one thing in common, they all work very, very hard. No matter where these great recruiters go, they are successful. If it were football, or basketball, they would all be very wealthy men.
Yes, the real truth is that #10 is #10 on the list, but if a couple sign and the rest sign elsewhere, #10 becomes the new real #1. Yes, college coaches do have to string kids along a little at times. Players string college coaches along at times, too. On the other hand, there’s the actual offer that can answer all the questions. If it’s 25%... chances are your not really #1 on their list, but they are serious about you. However, sometimes the money just isn’t there. It was spent before the college recognized your talent. That is where it can get tough to know what to do.
All that said, the most successful recruiters (the top programs) don’t need to lie. They just work harder than the others. Recruiting and scouting are much the same thing, the harder you work, the more players you see, the better you are. We could easily make out a list of the top recruiters in America. It’s pretty simple, they’re the ones we see the most. Same thing goes for scouts.
For those who don’t believe that… Watch and see what is going to happen at Florida International. Of course, most people who follow this stuff closely know what is going to happen at the U of Florida. Also over the next few years you might want to keep an eye on Liberty. Michigan is seeing the results. So is Virginia, then there’s Baylor, Georgia, San Diego, UNC, UCLA, USC (both of them), ASU, LSU, OSU, Vanderbilt, Clemson, Coastal Carolina, Stanford, Miami, Georgia Tech, Texas, Ole Miss, etc. I could name many others as well. These are some of the great recruiters! They all have one thing in common, they all work very, very hard. No matter where these great recruiters go, they are successful. If it were football, or basketball, they would all be very wealthy men.
ok?
We had a friend who was told, "We really like you but we do have an offer out to another guy at your position. We are waiting for his decision, and we won't be able to decide on you until he decides."
He was mad to be told he wasn't #1. But to me he was blaming them for being honest.
I suggested that even if we both felt their assessment of his skills was wrong, if they didn't see him as their top guy, that even if they came back to him at some point, I would worry about them recruiting behind him in the next class.
As PG says, there's a lot to be said for going where you are wanted. He took an offer elsewhere and is on track to start.
Not many would send a thank-you note to that first team, but maybe one is in order. They could've strung him along with false promises, and he might've missed his other opportunity while pining for his "dream school". But they didn't, and he didn't, and now everyone is happy.
Integrity is a great thing.
He was mad to be told he wasn't #1. But to me he was blaming them for being honest.
I suggested that even if we both felt their assessment of his skills was wrong, if they didn't see him as their top guy, that even if they came back to him at some point, I would worry about them recruiting behind him in the next class.
As PG says, there's a lot to be said for going where you are wanted. He took an offer elsewhere and is on track to start.
Not many would send a thank-you note to that first team, but maybe one is in order. They could've strung him along with false promises, and he might've missed his other opportunity while pining for his "dream school". But they didn't, and he didn't, and now everyone is happy.
Integrity is a great thing.
Is everyone someone's first choice?
Absolutley not!
Is every school your players first choice? Absolutely not!
If more players and people understand this, they will have a much easier time with the process.
The same thing happened with our player, he was told that they were waiting for a position player to committ before they could offer a pitcher. The only problem was, they wanted him to wait until october and by that time son felt that he had to make a decision before that. Because you are the B player, doesn't mean that you will not be as the A player. Coaches have priorities based on needs. Because you get a call on July 1 doesn't mean that coach is ever going to offer you anything.
Good post PG. You are right, successful recruiters do not have to lie.
Absolutley not!
Is every school your players first choice? Absolutely not!
If more players and people understand this, they will have a much easier time with the process.
The same thing happened with our player, he was told that they were waiting for a position player to committ before they could offer a pitcher. The only problem was, they wanted him to wait until october and by that time son felt that he had to make a decision before that. Because you are the B player, doesn't mean that you will not be as the A player. Coaches have priorities based on needs. Because you get a call on July 1 doesn't mean that coach is ever going to offer you anything.
Good post PG. You are right, successful recruiters do not have to lie.
I believe you, but that guy really shouldn't have told you what other coaches in their programs do.JMO.
Do coaches actually tell players they are their #1 guy? I don't remember anyone telling that to son, I only remember you could tell who had more interest than others by showing up to watch you play, OV's, regular phone calls after July 1, hand written letters, inquiries to your coaches.
Showing up at your home is bigtime!
Do coaches actually tell players they are their #1 guy? I don't remember anyone telling that to son, I only remember you could tell who had more interest than others by showing up to watch you play, OV's, regular phone calls after July 1, hand written letters, inquiries to your coaches.
Showing up at your home is bigtime!
Coaches do tell players "Your our guy. Your our top choice and we need a decision as soon as you can make one. We have to move quickly on another player if you decide on another school."
This happens all the time. Sometimes its the truth and sometimes its a way of putting pressure on a player to make a decision so they can make a move on another player before someone else can. I speak to college coaches all the time about players that play for me in the summer. When they are serious about getting a player they want that player to feel a since of urgency to make a decision one way or the other. If the player indicates they are not ready to make a decision , depending on how bad they want the guy they will either "take your time and keep in touch" or "we really need to know as soon as possible." The approach will depend on the program and what is in the works on other players.
The fact is certain guys are "A" list players for each program. They will try to get these guys first. If they miss they move on to the "B" list players. Sometimes the "B" list guy turns out to be a better player than the "A" list guy. "A" list players are told they are "A" list players. By the amount of money they are offered , by the amount of schools and the caliber of programs that are offering and by the since of urgency they are sought after.
Coaches are not going to say "You were are second choice but since the guy we really wanted went to State U we now want you." No , because the other guy is no longer available you are now their #1 guy. Does it matter? Regardless if your the first , second or third choice , if you end up being the guy they offer you are now their first choice. And regardless of what choice you were wether it was the first or third your playing time will be determined by your performance on the field. The guy getting alot of money will have to prove he didnt deserve it. The guy getting no money will have to prove he did.
Every program is different in their approach. Depending on the potential of the player the approach will be different. And depending on the need of the program to get that player the approach will differ. But coaches know what kids want to hear. For some its "You are our #1 guy and we really want you to be a part of our program." Some guys just want to hear "We want you to be a part of our program." Believe me the coaches that know how to recruit understand the process and how to make it happen. Some programs can afford to be very selective and can have a no nonsense approach. Some quite honestly can not. If they have a shot they have to sell it bigtime.
This happens all the time. Sometimes its the truth and sometimes its a way of putting pressure on a player to make a decision so they can make a move on another player before someone else can. I speak to college coaches all the time about players that play for me in the summer. When they are serious about getting a player they want that player to feel a since of urgency to make a decision one way or the other. If the player indicates they are not ready to make a decision , depending on how bad they want the guy they will either "take your time and keep in touch" or "we really need to know as soon as possible." The approach will depend on the program and what is in the works on other players.
The fact is certain guys are "A" list players for each program. They will try to get these guys first. If they miss they move on to the "B" list players. Sometimes the "B" list guy turns out to be a better player than the "A" list guy. "A" list players are told they are "A" list players. By the amount of money they are offered , by the amount of schools and the caliber of programs that are offering and by the since of urgency they are sought after.
Coaches are not going to say "You were are second choice but since the guy we really wanted went to State U we now want you." No , because the other guy is no longer available you are now their #1 guy. Does it matter? Regardless if your the first , second or third choice , if you end up being the guy they offer you are now their first choice. And regardless of what choice you were wether it was the first or third your playing time will be determined by your performance on the field. The guy getting alot of money will have to prove he didnt deserve it. The guy getting no money will have to prove he did.
Every program is different in their approach. Depending on the potential of the player the approach will be different. And depending on the need of the program to get that player the approach will differ. But coaches know what kids want to hear. For some its "You are our #1 guy and we really want you to be a part of our program." Some guys just want to hear "We want you to be a part of our program." Believe me the coaches that know how to recruit understand the process and how to make it happen. Some programs can afford to be very selective and can have a no nonsense approach. Some quite honestly can not. If they have a shot they have to sell it bigtime.
Thanks CM, good stuff.
This is one of the best discussions I have read on the hsbbweb. Congrats to all who contributed...
Do coaches lie? C'mon - they are paid to win, and will leave a school for more money in a second, leaving your son high and dry. Don't be naive. It is a business.
Your son's value is based on his scholarship. And that's the bottom line. As other posters have said, that will get you the number of chances you deserve, but not one more. Therefore, approach the process with open eyes, and look for that good fit, which is more than just baseball.
Do coaches lie? C'mon - they are paid to win, and will leave a school for more money in a second, leaving your son high and dry. Don't be naive. It is a business.
Your son's value is based on his scholarship. And that's the bottom line. As other posters have said, that will get you the number of chances you deserve, but not one more. Therefore, approach the process with open eyes, and look for that good fit, which is more than just baseball.
Many top programs have been found guilty of unethical recruiting practices and violations. I find it hard to believe they are guilty of deceit in one area and are totally honest in another. My son was recruited by some top programs and it was common for them to tell you one thing one week and change their story the next. I never classified them as liars but it was obvious they were constantly modifying their recruiting comments. As brod says: Don't be naive!
Those in the recruiting process don't see themselves as telling lies ---- they simply see it as the TRUTH being a constantly changing thing!
Those in the recruiting process don't see themselves as telling lies ---- they simply see it as the TRUTH being a constantly changing thing!
Do college coaches lie? Yes.
Do all college coaches lie? Do you lie? Does your son lie?
When asked certain questions by college coaches did your son lie? Did you lie? Did he stretch the truth? Did you? Did you avoid the question or embellish the answer?
What is your definition of a lie? To some not disclosing the entire truth when asked a question would constitute a lie. To others if they didnt say it they didnt lie. Do some coaches flat out lie? I have no idea. I have no proof of that. The coaches I have had the pleasure of dealing with at the college level are some of the best people I have ever met. Are some coaches more upfront? Yes.
Could it be in some instances we hear what we want to hear and dont hear what we dont want to hear? At some point and time you have to trust. If you go into this whole thing skeptical of everyone you are dealing with you will never have a moment of peace. You gain as much information as you can and you look that man in the face and you make a decision you are going to trust that he is a good man and you can trust him. If not find someone you feel you can. If not you are going to be a miserable person.
When asked certain questions by college coaches did your son lie? Did you lie? Did he stretch the truth? Did you? Did you avoid the question or embellish the answer?
What is your definition of a lie? To some not disclosing the entire truth when asked a question would constitute a lie. To others if they didnt say it they didnt lie. Do some coaches flat out lie? I have no idea. I have no proof of that. The coaches I have had the pleasure of dealing with at the college level are some of the best people I have ever met. Are some coaches more upfront? Yes.
Could it be in some instances we hear what we want to hear and dont hear what we dont want to hear? At some point and time you have to trust. If you go into this whole thing skeptical of everyone you are dealing with you will never have a moment of peace. You gain as much information as you can and you look that man in the face and you make a decision you are going to trust that he is a good man and you can trust him. If not find someone you feel you can. If not you are going to be a miserable person.
quote:they simply see it as the TRUTH being a constantly changing thing!
And to some extent, it really is a changing thing.
We are involved in scouting and ranking players. If we were a college recruiter and took the top 50 as "we" have them ranked, would we tell the #50 player he is number 50 on our list of recruiting priorities?
Maybe we need to look at this from the recruiters side. He has to determine if #1 will get drafted and sign. If #1 is drafted and does sign, he is no longer #1. The truth changes, you might say. He has to figure out how interested #1 is in his school. If #1 goes elsewhere, there is a new #1. His job is to recruit the best talent that fits into his program and that program's needs.
If in the end, he recruits any 10 of those top 50, he has done a great job of recruiting. We try hard to determine who we think are the top 10, top 50, top 100, etc. We see more players than any college coach in the country and those college coaches know that. That said, we know ahead of time that #50 could easily end up being better than #10. We know that because it has happened so many times before. In fact, it's possible #500 could end up better than #10.
So if our opinion at any given time can change, then you could possibly say that the truth has changed. I'm not sure if it has that much to do with integrity or being honest, as much as it is just trying to do the best job possible.
There are lots of people who say things that could be desribed as untruthful. Before every draft there are well over 100 players who are led to believe they will be first round picks. We all should know that is impossible, yet it happens and many become very dissapointed on draft day. There's even a bigger group of players who are led to believe they will get drafted in certain other rounds, like rounds 4-7. Maybe four times as many, or more, are told that than the 120 actual picks there are in those rounds.
Anyway, when we talk about telling the truth or honesty, it reminds me of the Boras Group. No matter what anyone thinks, I personally believe they are among the most honest in that business. I also think there is a good reason for that... They can "afford" to be honest. They don't need to mislead a player. The same could be said for certain college programs, they are where almost everyone wants to go. They can afford to tell the truth. It's not that the others are dishonest as it is what Fungo described as the truth being a constantly changing thing. I think it really is in this topic.
Example - You start the season with a certain lineup. You try your best to keep everyone on the same page and competing for a job. You do not tell a player he is not in your plans until he is not in your plans. The truth is on opening day you have your best on the field. Then at some point, you realize that the truth is, you were wrong and one of them reserves you've been working on (maybe even stringing along) becomes the best player you have, he now becomes the real truth.
Recruiting can't be based on just getting one #1. It takes much more than that. Sometimes coaches don't even know for sure which recruit will become the true #1. They know that from past experience. They know they've been wrong before and they are likely to make another mistake no matter how good they are.
I don't remember any coach actually lying to me. I did learn to pick up words that I considered stalling tactics.
I agree with Coach May about A list players and there can be several on the A list. All of them may be players that they would be happy to sign but may not get an offer depending on what other A list players commit. They may make an offer to their #1 choice and hopefully they told him he was their #1 choice. You don't have to tell everyone they are their #1. You just have to tell them they are an A list player in their eyes.
I remember an elite team that used to do that and they had a real problem when players started bragging they were #1 choice. Geez they said that to me also. That team lost credibility. What really mattered was who got the offer and in the case of college, How much you got.
I agree with Coach May about A list players and there can be several on the A list. All of them may be players that they would be happy to sign but may not get an offer depending on what other A list players commit. They may make an offer to their #1 choice and hopefully they told him he was their #1 choice. You don't have to tell everyone they are their #1. You just have to tell them they are an A list player in their eyes.
I remember an elite team that used to do that and they had a real problem when players started bragging they were #1 choice. Geez they said that to me also. That team lost credibility. What really mattered was who got the offer and in the case of college, How much you got.
Three incentives that are applicable
to all HS and college players include:
1. Showing up on Time.
2. Attending all Classes.
3. Telling the truth.
to all HS and college players include:
1. Showing up on Time.
2. Attending all Classes.
3. Telling the truth.
For those of you that have past experience, does a walk-on or 25% scholarship player as a Freshman ever become a higher $ scholarship player the next year? Once you sign, are you "stuck" with what you signed for or do you have a chance to raise your value to the Coach?
quote:What really mattered was who got the offer and in the case of college, How much you got.
And how much will it end up costing you! And how happy will you be... Though that is an unknown.
quote:And to some extent, it really is a changing thing
No doubt the "truth" changes. Your post is very informative and accurate in my opinion.
Thanks,
Fungo
powertoallfields,
It used to be very common for scholarships to be added or raised. Even taken away in some cases being they are based on one year.
Time will tell if that stays the same, now that it is much more difficult for a player to transfer.
It used to be very common for scholarships to be added or raised. Even taken away in some cases being they are based on one year.
Time will tell if that stays the same, now that it is much more difficult for a player to transfer.
D1 NCAA scholarships are for 1 year as stated. Usually they are extended after the year but often they are reduced, raised or withdrawn.
What happens can be a reflection of many things including a coaching change. A few years back a friend told me he was told by the new coach to look for 3 new roomates. He cut all of them and brought in his own players. Now that coach has been replacedafter only 2-3 years. I hear all kinds of horror stories. In my son's case he got a Big increase after his JR year fall. Coach just called him into the office and told him he raised his BB money because of his work ethic and leadership. So you can get an increase.
What happens can be a reflection of many things including a coaching change. A few years back a friend told me he was told by the new coach to look for 3 new roomates. He cut all of them and brought in his own players. Now that coach has been replacedafter only 2-3 years. I hear all kinds of horror stories. In my son's case he got a Big increase after his JR year fall. Coach just called him into the office and told him he raised his BB money because of his work ethic and leadership. So you can get an increase.
powertoallfields,
Great question. I wouldn't count on it. This is where the "business" side of baseball rears it's ugly head. I like analogies. Lets say I live on a fixed income of 11.7 thousand dollars a year. I lease a small apartment on a 12 month lease for $500 a month. It turns out this is a better apt than I thought. It's well insulated and the neighbors are great. The next year it comes time to renew my lease. I'M NOT GOING TO OFFER TO PAY MORE BECAUSE IT HAS OUTPERFORMED MY EXPECTATIONS. I might be FORCED to pay more if I cannot get it at last year's price but I'm not going to OFFER more. My goal is to improve MY life therefore I can't afford to "give" my money away ---- I'll take the money I don't have to spend and buy me a new HD TV! Now I have a nice apartment and a nice TV. (or in your case another "good" player)
Fungo
PS: Unlike individuals, Coaches cannot "save" scholarship money one year and apply it to a recruit next year, so if they don't use 11.7 (fully funded D-1) they can distribute that amount to their players. By the same token they can "ask" or "force" a player to give up some of their scholarship for any reason --- Let's say to sign a another much needed player.
Great question. I wouldn't count on it. This is where the "business" side of baseball rears it's ugly head. I like analogies. Lets say I live on a fixed income of 11.7 thousand dollars a year. I lease a small apartment on a 12 month lease for $500 a month. It turns out this is a better apt than I thought. It's well insulated and the neighbors are great. The next year it comes time to renew my lease. I'M NOT GOING TO OFFER TO PAY MORE BECAUSE IT HAS OUTPERFORMED MY EXPECTATIONS. I might be FORCED to pay more if I cannot get it at last year's price but I'm not going to OFFER more. My goal is to improve MY life therefore I can't afford to "give" my money away ---- I'll take the money I don't have to spend and buy me a new HD TV! Now I have a nice apartment and a nice TV. (or in your case another "good" player)
Fungo
PS: Unlike individuals, Coaches cannot "save" scholarship money one year and apply it to a recruit next year, so if they don't use 11.7 (fully funded D-1) they can distribute that amount to their players. By the same token they can "ask" or "force" a player to give up some of their scholarship for any reason --- Let's say to sign a another much needed player.
So when the coach approaches the player who received 75% his freshman year and drops it to 33% in the soph year. What are the players options? Also, are transfer rules still in effect if a coach leaves the program ?