Does HS baseball matter?

I don't think anyone can answer that question as it applies to you and yours except you. For reasons I won't discuss now, I received an email from a former player this past week. In it, he mentioned how successful his life has been. He attend a very prestigious college and holds many pitching records there. He played professionally and made it to the Bigs. He now has a tremendous job in the private sector. However, he wanted to thank me for being a part of his high school experience and mentioned that few things in his life have equaled his time in high school baseball. (Exception - his kids!) Your son's high school experience will be exactly what you/he want(s) to make of it. Nothing more and nothing less. JMHO!

Used to Hit300,

I would definitely have to agree with most of the points that you raise based on what I have seen and heard other player or players parents talk about. I think that many of us thought that coming into a high school baseball program would be a great experience for our kids and that the coaching and development would be great. Alot of the coaches are teachers who are trying to make extra money and quite frankly are not good baseball coaches and don't care one iota about a kids future.

I have heard numerous horror stories about coaches throwing kids 150 - 160 pitches a game bacause they want to win. Come on, they don't even do that in the majors with mature pitchers. I am sure that many coaches would not care if a kids arm fell off 5 minutes after his last game as a senior. If they want to keep their jobs, they have to win and and quite often do not think about the student athletes future in the game. In those situations, in which a players future is put in harms way, the player or someone else has to intervene.

From what I have seen, skill development and getting recruited is a "do it yourself" project for most high school baseball players. I have no problem with that at all. It is only when you come in with higher expectations that you are disappointed.


Also, I just want to add that there are no without question some very good, caring coaches out there who may actually look out for the players futures. They just probably do not get talked up as much as the poor ones.

Used to be .300...

I think a lot of what you are saying about your son's HS experience is typical. Freshman baseball would even be more that way.

As far as his baseball future, HS Ball can help and the degree to which it can help will partly depend on who his Varsity Coach is. I think that if he has aspirations to play "on a higher level" it will be up to him and you, and maybe a coach or Travel team to maximize his potential. It is also going to be up to you to get him seen by the right people and that isn't going to happen in HS ball nearly as often as you woudl like to think.

Hopefully he will enjoy HS Ball for what it is and then go from there.

JMHO

used to hit


Its unfortunate that your son has an unpleasant situation at his school. For one minute dont beleive that the HS program doesnt matter. Coaches are second guessed at every level, its part of the deal.

There are so many over qualified coaches in the HS ranks that its not funny. I'll agree that there are some guys with less experience then others but the fact remains that most every one of them are teaching your son how to prepare themselves for life and how to be a part of a unit..

Your opening list could very easily be a decription of most Summer teams too.

I know of many HS coaches who speak regularly with College coaches. Keep in mind that last I looked the College coach was an educator as well.

Their may be certain circumstances that may develope so a kid doesnt play at his school,but for the most part if I were the college and the kid did not play for his HS, it would be a major red flag!

Most times the ones who think they are , arent. They usually have the problems, or should I say thats when the coaches have the problem.

For me, the whole process is the process.HS, college and then whatever life has to bring. Again, not this way for every kid.

Sparky,

Just for perspective, and it's ok if you don't know or wish to guess, how many kids or % are recruited based on the help or connections from their high school coach vs. getting recruited based on their summer team/coach and the showcases they attend?

At the high school that my son attends, I have never heard of the coach once offering to help a kid in the recruiting process other than filling out the coaches form once he receives it from the college.

Thanks!!

sparky, You have a PM

Hop,

I'm not saying that they all do, but its a huge misconception that the HS coach does nothing in regards to the process. . As I said before, its different everywhere. Heck, I know HS coaches that are working for kids at other schools. Just dont think its fair to stereotype HS coaches . Not saying you are Hopper, If seasons were reversed and colleges played when the Summer teams did, wouldnt the colleges come out to more HS games? Of course they would, might reverse things then..How important is the Summer team then? Summer is when the colleges can get out and recruit. And they are going to go to the places the players are, its that simple.

And don't think for one minute that the University and College coaches dont know where the creditable HS coaches are and arent.

Their jobs are to find you and the good ones do. Whether it HS coach, Summer coach, Scout or whomever. Chances are if your good enough they will get to you.

What about Stevenson, and Plainfield and the other showcases the HS coaches run in our area? Couple Hundred schools out there.. (Colleges) Someones getting it done.

Those showcases are awesome and anyone who gets chosen to play in those games should feel honored. Incredible amount of coaches from all levels and great players out those weekends.

300, while I am sure that some of the things you listed are factual, I am not sure that those points are specifically addressed to high school baseball. Secondly, in my opinion college coaches who do not confer with HS coaches prior to signing a player is making a huge mistake. It's ashame that the american model of athletics no longer revolves around the school. Lastly, Hopper I am not convinced that the travel coach is being spoken to by recruiters either. I am fortunate enough to have a player that could go in the top five rounds of the draft and everything is going through me. I would gladly be willing to give the scouts, cross checkers and assistant GM's his travel number. 300 if your kid can play he will, but I find it funny that you mentioned the HS coach stresses winning. Do you really believe that the goal of the travel ball coach is to get his player noticed? That winning is not important? Sir if your issue is with the coach and or the program, address it, toe to toe with the coach, if you feel he is not willing to change then it is your responsibility to create change, one thing though your efforts better be on behalf of all kids in that program. Good luck.

Agree with Playball,

if they are not going through the guys who spend every day of most of the year with the kid, then the recruiter doesnt get it.

As there are high profile travel teams, there are also high profile high schools, and unless your son participates in either one, you must handle the recruiting yourself.

Of course there are good hs coaches who do care about each player (or most of them, anyway) and go above and beyond what is expected in the recruiting process, i.e. contacting colleges coaches, alerting the players to showcases and camps.

But as we learned in physics, for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction-- for as many "good" coaches and high school programs there are as many "horrible" coaches and high school programs in that regard. My sons' coach and high school unfortunately fell into that category. The coach had a file folder more than 2 inches thick of showcase and camp invitations that never got passed on to the proper player or to the team. When we asked about it, the coach told us that all the kids had to do was ask to see it. Huh? How do you know to ask about a file folder filled with recruiting information if you don't know it exists? When given the coach's portion of an athlete's recruiting questionnaire that we received on our own, or perhaps from the travel teams, it stayed with the coach. If he ever filled it out, it never got mailed or faxed.

By the way, my oldest was all-conference three years in a row. We had never heard of the Stevenson showcase until we got on this board--the summer before he started college. Too late, it was way after the fact. The coach either never passed the information on or he never recommended my son. What a shame.

So this family's opinion is that high school baseball matters in that you should have some statistics to report on the players recruiting form. But don't count on it otherwise in the recruiting process; you need to handle that yourself.

In response to the original question, I would have to say that high school ball undoubtedly matters. I just finished my freshman year at Illinois, and I'm only starting to realize how important high school baseball was to me.

I'm now playing on the Illinois Club Baseball Team. When I was choosing colleges, I was struggling with the decision to either play at a small D3 school or go to a big school. I decided to go with the big school, and club baseball has been the absolute best part of my college experience. It is suprisingly good baseball, and I've never had so much fun playing baseball with a bunch of guys who simply love the game. Club baseball is a great option at large universities for those who can't afford the high price tag of other schools.

To return to the question, I could not be enjoying myself so much if it wasn't for my experience in high school. I was lucky enough to have a fantastic high school coaching staff, and they enhanced my love for the game exponentially. I've returned to a few games this spring, and I was immediately asked to assist in coaching the summer varsity team and to assist the legion team. I think that speaks to the kind of experience I had; I had great respect for the coaches and they had great respect for me. They recognize my love for the game, and although I may not have the skill to play D1 baseball, they know I'll stay involved in baseball however I can. I can't wait to start coaching this summer, and I'm even more excited when I start coaching my own teams in the years ahead. None of this could have been possible without a great high school baseball experience, and I have my coaches to thank for that.

used to hit 300. I have very mixed feelings about your post and high school baseball in general. I do have to ask about one of your quotes. The part where you say his summer travel teammates will not tolerate physical or mental mistakes. It is just my opinion but if you can't tolerate a physical mistake in this game it could be a long career.

Ktown25,

Very nice post and its very obvious that you had special coaches at your your HS. The reason you cant wait to give back is because I am geussing, these coaches had a pretty significant effect on you as a person. Its the same game no matter what level.

Used to Hit -
Couple questions about your post:

1. You say the coaches stress they want to "win" - is that a bad thing? Or are you saying they give lip service to winning but do nothing to actually make sure it happens?

2. Coaches do not teach fundamentals - things like throwing and fielding, or are you referring to more advanced baseball than true "fundamentals"?

3. Your son's travel team doesn't tolerate mistakes - what happens to the player who makes one, if a mistake is not tolerated? Is it like South American s****r, where they take the goalie out behind the clubhouse and he's never seen or heard from again?

4. Varsity coach is loyal to seniors - does he play only seniors, or does he play a senior ahead of a junior or underclassman if, in his estimation, all other things are equal? If he has the luxury of a team full of seniors every year, he must be doing something right. If he plays a senior ahead of a junior because he believes they are equal in ability, then he's like many other high school coaches. Loyalty is important -

5. They don't move kids up - how does a coach and a program that garners so little respect manage to keep enough kids on the varsity team that he doesn't have to look outside of his senior class every year? Typically a team that is not highly regarded has a tough time fielding enough players, unless you come from a school of 5000 or something.

6. No one has anything positive to say - could it be that's because no one ever has anything positive to say? Many times those things take on a life of their own - everyone gripes because everyone gripes... and says the coaches don't know baseball, they never play the best players, they don't teach anything - and so on.

7. They don't play lower level summer ball - if they are as bad as you say, you should be grateful. Most players struggle to balance a mandatory summer HS schedule(which usually isn't that competitive) with a travel team schedule. Not always an easy task.

High school baseball matters only as much as you want it to matter. If all you see is a stepping stone to the career that you hope awaits, you will probably be sorely disappointed. But if you see all the other life lessons that can come out of the experience - good and bad - you'll see, it matters. And your son is an "A" student - now that's what REALLY matters!

Freshman ball can be a frustrating experience, but the good news is it only lasts one year... then you get to be frustrated by sophomore ball and at long last varsity ball!

my3sons, best, rebuttal, post, response, of the year. Well done sir.

K-Town say hello to the Palatine Boys for me. Whitty and Dahl. Have fun in Florida.

Hmmm..

There are certainly life lessons in everything a kid does, but that doesn't mean it's a good thing.

Yes, players and parents are critical of HS Coaches and sometimes it is just a result of there being a limited number of opportunities on a team, as well as the fact that sometimes a team may not be as talented as some would like to think. But there are HS Coaches who are uninspired, don't work hard and have little or no passion for what they are doing. To tell a kid it is just a life lesson is a cop-out and I'd rather have my kid learn to be cynical after he is more of an adult.

That said, there are some passionate coaches who love what they do and teach kids postive life lessons, and that means learning that you are part of a team and all that goes with it. Sometimes it means having a feel-good coach who brings out the best in kids in his way. It might mean a tougher coach who is more demanding and seemingly less forgiving, but either way if he does it with conviction and passion and truly cares the player will benefit from it.

The best part of my3sons post...."If all you see is a stepping stone to a career that you hope awaits, you will probably be sorely disappointed" says it all. The journey is the best part of the experience and you can't let your kid miss that.

Fastball -
I do agree there are uninspired coaches, but there are also uninspired insurance agents, bankers, teachers, airline pilots... all with varying degrees of impact on our lives. However, I really don't think there is such a thing as a "bad" life lesson - if you manage to learn anything from an experience, even if it's just that sometimes life ain't fair - then it's a good thing. Many times the lessons are painful and you really wish your son didn't have to go through them, but life is sometimes hard. And as long as they still have a place to call home and parents who love them, they'll be OK.

One thing that I've noted on our high school team over the past 12 or so years is that almost every dad standing on the sidelines has at one time or another coached his son's team - whether it was Little League or travel ball, they've all done it and therefore all believe they can do it better than anyone else. Is that true for every high school baseball team? Does that same thing ever happen in other sports? Right now on our varsity team we have one boy who's dad never coached - the other 14 all did. That's an awful lot of expert play by play analysis... and since my own sons have played for some of THEM, I can cheerfully remind them of all the times that other parents questioned their decisions on the field. It just goes with the territory. And the reality is that this coach has earned the right to coach this team as he sees fit.

Here's one other thing - and I mentioned this in passing in my first post - oftentimes team lore is spread from one year to the next that bears little or no resemblance to the truth. When our oldest son started playing as a freshman we heard all kinds of "facts" -

1. Never approach the coach - he won't talk to parents. And if you try, your kid will suffer.
2. You either pitch or play shortstop - never both
3. He only ever uses two pitchers all season
4. He never plays the best players
5. Best players won't play for him or quit during the season

I could go on, but my point is that, having now had three boys play for the same coach I can tell you that NONE of the "facts" are in fact true. He's a personable guy who does his darnedest to put the best possible team on the field. Cuz guess what - he likes to win, too! Do kids quit - sure, but I've yet to see one quit because of anything the coach did. They've all been unwilling to be team players - too many years of dad running the show.

We don't have a great high school team - middle of the road in a middle of the road conference. But we have a great group of boys who make lots of mistakes on and off the field, and a coach who hangs in there with them year after year, trying to teach them what really matters in life. It really isn't how fast you can run to 1st or what your pop time is. It's who you are on the inside and what you get out of it is usually pretty equal to what you put in. To me, he's a courageous guy. He cares about kids who many, many times will let you down and break your heart. And every year he comes back for more.

I realize as I re-read this that I started this in response to your post, but most of this is just me reflecting back on the original question. I'm sure I'm not telling you anything new!

P.S. I had to read your signature three times - I kept thinking "he spelled mistake wrong"... then I got it!

mythreesons..I enjoyed reading your posts. You said it all.

I think that we could have as many opinions on this as there are kids. I have heard the same "facts" about our high school coach that are not true as well.

About the fathers who coach the kids. Some of them DO know baseball, and have seen the kids for 6 or 7 years in little league, and may haqve a good handle on who can play where. Part of the great thing about baseball is that everything can be discussed, and second guessed...from the positioning of the infielders, to who plays where, to when to pul a pitcher etc. The fathers should be allowed to second guess and talk baseball, they just shouldn't undermine the coach and the team. That is where the line should be drawn. There is a difference between talking baseball and poisening the atmosphere of a team. Some aren't able to seee that line.

my 3,

quote:

Originally posted by SPARKY1:
And don't think for one minute that the University and College coaches dont know where the creditable HS coaches are and arent.

Their jobs are to find you and the good ones do. Whether it HS coach, Summer coach, Scout or whomever. Chances are if your good enough they will get to you.

What about Stevenson, and Plainfield and the other showcases the HS coaches run in our area? Couple Hundred schools out there.. (Colleges) Someones getting it done.

Sparky,
Two sides of that coin. Have seen coaches work tirelessly for kids who aren't even in their conference, let alone program. On the other hand, have seen kids left out of showcases like Stevenson that were the most talented on thier teams.

I've seen pro scouts that have no vested interest, tell a kid to list the scout as a reference because he'd love to help him and would do anything he could to get that kid the best deal at the best college program he could. Have also seen coaches sit on request forms and packages from colleges for weeks into months.

One IL college program told us that they rely almost exclusively on HS coaches to alert them of potential players for their program and only actively dig on players outside the state. They miss some local players they shouldn't because of this policy.

Doesn't mean they are all good or all bad, but if we factor in that 50% of coaches are above average, that means that 50% of coaches are below average.

high school ball isnt all what its cracked up to be..first of all Not all the best kids make it.politics,donations former brothers in the program etc etc all make up picking THE team.a kid with true talent may be a "problem' etc etc..

it seems the real talent comes out during these tornaments..hand picked kids from all over,,a stud from this school a stud from that school...how cant the talent be twice as good as high school? these guys are cherry picking the best kids from EVERY high school..


i would imagine THOUGH it would be hard to get KNOWN if you didnt play for your hS...

quote:

Originally posted by mythreesons:
Used to Hit -
Couple questions about your post:

1. You say the coaches stress they want to "win" - is that a bad thing? Or are you saying they give lip service to winning but do nothing to actually make sure it happens?

2. Coaches do not teach fundamentals - things like throwing and fielding, or are you referring to more advanced baseball than true "fundamentals"?

3. Your son's travel team doesn't tolerate mistakes - what happens to the player who makes one, if a mistake is not tolerated? Is it like South American s****r, where they take the goalie out behind the clubhouse and he's never seen or heard from again?

4. Varsity coach is loyal to seniors - does he play only seniors, or does he play a senior ahead of a junior or underclassman if, in his estimation, all other things are equal? If he has the luxury of a team full of seniors every year, he must be doing something right. If he plays a senior ahead of a junior because he believes they are equal in ability, then he's like many other high school coaches. Loyalty is important -

5. They don't move kids up - how does a coach and a program that garners so little respect manage to keep enough kids on the varsity team that he doesn't have to look outside of his senior class every year? Typically a team that is not highly regarded has a tough time fielding enough players, unless you come from a school of 5000 or something.

6. No one has anything positive to say - could it be that's because no one ever has anything positive to say? Many times those things take on a life of their own - everyone gripes because everyone gripes... and says the coaches don't know baseball, they never play the best players, they don't teach anything - and so on.

7. They don't play lower level summer ball - if they are as bad as you say, you should be grateful. Most players struggle to balance a mandatory summer HS schedule(which usually isn't that competitive) with a travel team schedule. Not always an easy task.

High school baseball matters only as much as you want it to matter. If all you see is a stepping stone to the career that you hope awaits, you will probably be sorely disappointed. But if you see all the other life lessons that can come out of the experience - good and bad - you'll see, it matters. And your son is an "A" student - now that's what REALLY matters!

Freshman ball can be a frustrating experience, but the good news is it only lasts one year... then you get to be frustrated by sophomore ball and at long last varsity ball!

1. No, stressing winning is not a bad thing, but seems to be lip service in this case. See Nos. 2 & 4.

2. A mixed bag - throwing and fielding to some degree, but other things like learnign to take primary and secondary leadoffs, taking proper paths running the bases, bunt defenses, pick-off plays, pop-up/fly ball priorities, etc. If they want to win, shouldn't their be instruction on some of these topics, instead of being embarrassed by other teams that are better prepared?

3. Certainly not that extreme, but what happens is the summer ball team policies itself and the kids hold themselves and their teammates accountable. They have figured out the leadership thing. The HS coaches do not facilatate that development.

4. The varsity coach claims to want to win, but will play his seniors even if a lower classman is a better player. They have historically had 10-11 seniors and they almost all play, all of the time.

5. Not 5,000 but 3,000. Generally have 30 Frosh, 20 Soph's and Varsity has a Junior/Senior mix of 20. The HS program garners support because they kids want to play baseball.

6. I understand griping. Some do and some don't. When you talk to those that don't, and they do, then there may be a problem.

7. Good or bad, I would think that underclass HS summer ball would only help build comraderie and leadership among the team, would be a time HS coaches could actually teach, and serve as an opportunity for the Sophmore coach to understand the strengths and weaknesses of next years team.

Thanks for all the feedback. Yes, there are several life lessons with baseball. That is what makes it the greatest activity ever invented. Things I have learned from baseball apply to everyday life - family, work, friends.

Used to -
The only quarrel I have with what you've said is when you say the coach will play his seniors "even if a lower classman is a better player". That's where it gets very, very sticky. Better in who's eyes? As our coaches remind us at the start of every season, they spend a lot of time with these boys every single day, so their evaluation of who is better suited to play takes into consideration a lot of factors that parents don't get a chance to see.

Example - There's a boy on our team who up until 3 games ago rarely played. He pinch hit a total of 7 times and hit 2 home runs and 3 doubles... amazing! Why wasn't coach playing him on a regular basis? What's he thinking? Lots of griping and second guessing on the sidelines (every parent's right, as someone said earlier - as long as it's kept on the sidelines!) Finally, due to an unfortunate injury to another player, the boy cracks the starting line up. Hasn't done more than tip the ball since. Why? Obviously coach knows what kind of pitching the boy can hit, and it ain't a curve ball! He's very wisely used him against pitchers that he knew threw exactly what the boy can hit. Suddenly coach is a genius! But, wait! the dad's all exclaim, why is he still letting that kid bat - he can't hit a lick!

Give your coaches credit for the hard work that they do. They deal with all kinds of junk that never sees the light of day... kids have all kinds of problems these days that go way beyond the baseball field. And if you see things happening that you wonder about, ask them. You might be surprised to hear what they have to say. And if you find that they just really aren't very good coaches you might have to find a way to try to shake things up - or just sit on the sidelines and wait til travel ball starts!

And I just have to say it again, the best thing about freshman baseball is that it only lasts one season! It does get better - obviously with the size of your freshman program kids will start dropping off next year and even more the following year, so the level of play will get more refined. It's a great ride and it'll be over way too fast - that's a guarantee.

Forgot one thing - as far as hs summer ball and team building... here's how it really is.

Kids have to find their own rides to games, so there's no team time on the bus. Everybody gets there just in time to play (almost everyone is rushing to get there from their summer job or basketball camp or football camp or...) Coach pulls up at the last minute - he's got a summer job, too, or maybe he's on kid duty at home. The game starts, you play seven innings and every body climbs back in their own cars and drives home. No practice (coaching contacts are limited to something like 25) no teaching, no team building - just a bunch of guys playing some ball. Fun, laid back, usually too hot, sometimes boring, sometimes not even enough guys to play, so some of your guys have to play for the other team... more girlfriends do show up than during the regular season, probably cuz it's warm and they can work on the tans, so that's a plus for some...

The soon to be seniors usually aren't required to come until playoffs start, and then once they do, they bump all the underclassmen from "their" positions - now we gotta win some games! And as soon as it gets good, it's over. And a looooooong winter stands between you and Opening Day!

That's the way it is at our school anyway!