Does this sound right to you?

Nothing surprises me anymore in HS ball. Just as with anything else, there are good and bad. Hopefully the young man will be able to make something good come of it.

Well, there's a great example of how not to do it.

JBB, of course it's just the start of the season, and when they see what talent they have they will probebly be changing there toon.
If he's as good as you say, He'll prove it in practice.
And it won't kill him not to play HS, if he play's summer ball.
Plus a fresh arm when it count's?
EH

TUNE??
I knew I spelled it wrong, But had a brain ****

quote:

Originally posted by theEH:
JBB, of course it's just the start of the season, and when they see what talent they have they will probebly be changing there toon.
If he's as good as you say, He'll prove it in practice.
And it won't kill him not to play HS, if he play's summer ball.
Plus a fresh arm when it count's?
EH

All good points...I have no problem not pitching a Freshman at Varsity level, in the longterm it will have zero negative affect on him for college,,,and no matter how good he is (or thinks he is) most Freshman pitchers IMO are going to get roughed up a bit.

If he has the talent he will get the opportunity.

Also if I'm the coach and the current talent level is minimal I might want to start my Freshman off slowly and build for the future.

quote:

Originally posted by justbaseball:
Seems to me we have here:
a. Some immature JV coaches wanting to incorrectly thump their chests as a show of control.
b. A varsity assistant coach who would cut off his nose to spite his face.
c. A figurehead varsity head coach.
d. A program going nowhere.

I agree.

Novice Dad - I will not argue with your points...we actually agree in large part.

However, do you see any point in beating down a kid (a very talented one) without provocation? Is that a good way to build the confidence of a 14/15-year old kid who will possibly carry your program in a couple of years? Is this attitude of demeaning new players a proper way to build your program for the future?

Not IMO.

There are ways to say the same thing while preserving the young man's confidence and dignity all the while ensuring he feels welcome. This did not happen as best as I can tell.

JBB,
My first thoughts are a lot of meaningless talk at this point. As you put it ---- A lot of chest thumping by those with little or no reputation. I would expect (and hope) the talent of the player will come out and control the outcome of this situation. If the coach has ANY baseball smarts your friend’s son will get a chance to prove himself and since you say he has the talent, that talent will make the difference. If it doesn’t work out that way ----- then it becomes another sad story of an incompetent coach messing with a good player. Thank goodness for summer teams!
Fungo

My first thought was "Save his Arm for the Future". Easy to say but hard to do.

justbb,
I believe a number of schools in our area require coaches to attend programs done by the Positive Coaching Alliance. While there are aspects of that effort with which I don't fully agree, it does teach coaches the importance of respect. Sounds like this is an AD and group of coaches who could truly benefit from understanding the impact respect can have, especially when it is earned and mutual between players and coaches at the high school level.

I don't see that kid's situation as much different than any other frosh that needs to work his way up the ranks. I think his dad needs to take a step back and give these coaches a chance.. he despises them before they've even coached a game! Just a thought.

JBB--first of all, I know nothing compared to you guys. But as a parent, not a baseball person necessarily: I agree with Bum, actually. Also--are you sure that what the dad said, is really true? If he wasn't there (as I believe he shouldn't be), it is hearsay and unreliable (lawyer, can't resist ). If he was there, he is being over-involved.

I think there is a lot of value in keeping the freshman and sophomores together so that they learn to play together and "live" together. I know that in my son's case, the varsity coach had pretty much the same policy about freshmen and sophomores staying on JV. As a result, that group became so cohesive, and the families grew so close, that they all had a fantastic 4 years together and knew how to play together so well on the field by senior year.

The difference, and the harder part, is that the coaches are new and maybe not "baseball" people. We were lucky because our JV coach had been coaching for many years and was and is just a great guy and a very good coach, with good assistants. I have no idea what the freshmen were told, but I actually wouldn't be surprised if they too were told that they would have to earn their spot. I don't remember which freshmen played as starters their freshman year, but I know they were given fair shots but didn't necessarily immediately take over from the sophomores.

Novice Dad said:

quote:

most Freshman pitchers IMO are going to get roughed up a bit.

I agree. Example: local pitcher was just drafted out of a major university in the first round. High 90s speed.

He played varsity all four years in HS. Freshman ERA was about 6.50 and about 4.50 as a sophomore. Not many sophs, even future first rounders, can easily handle varsity pitching chores.

---
Still think this kid deserves a crack at varsity and will probably get it later in the season. HS probably won't have a choice.

I understand were JBB's coming from, there shutting them down before there even getting started.
What incentive do the sophmore's have to work hard if the position's already handed to them!
I'm not so sure that the rec coaches don't already have there favorites that they coached in rec ball?
I can understand not making varsity as a freshman or sophmore.
But the roster position's should be wide open on JV But with that said, Your friend and his son will just have grin and bare it.
JBB, you know in the big picture. It means nothing Just keep his head up and no complaints!
EH

I don't think that coaches should put predetermined restrictions on who can play at what level.

Tryouts should occur and the best players should be able to play up to what ever level that would benefit the team in winning.

HR4, I know what your saying about play your best talent.
But its Cali, Many coaches out here just will not put 9th and 10th graders on Varsity.
Sometimes when the need arises. Not to often.
I didn't like it at all when Son was going through it!
I thought he had the talent to make varsity as a freshman.
But now after he's gone thru it and we all survived!
I think it was the best thing that could of happened.
No peer pressure, plenty of playing time in the field and on the mound.
Plus your playing with the players in your age group.
EH

For those that have not seen the thread, there was an excellent discussion last week in the Coaches Forum that was similar in nature to this one and entitled:
Playing Up???

I am starting to learn that there are many view points on this topic and sort of see things the way Bum described above. I understand and respect the other points of view however.

Some stream of concious thoughts and by no means do I think my ideas are more correct than others just my thoughts:

I guess there is always going to be a "potential" conflict between the travel team coaches/parents and the high school coaches - especially in 9th grade. I don't see the paraphrased coach comments above as beating the kid down, for example. The conflict is you have a fresh set of eyes and philsophies that operate as a filter on playing time and level of play. This filter may be different than previously applied by parents and/or travel ball coaches. That is maybe the biggest challenge of playing high school ball - learning to adapt to someone elses filter that you have no influence over - it ain't easy.

It seems difficult for people to accept that a travel/elite team superstar might not be shown the proper "respect" when he shows up in high school. So what? You get what you get in high school. Why not go out and earn the respect from the new coaches? Why waste time and emotions over something you cannot control? Why not turn a negative into a positive - use it to your advantage as EH says his son did?

I am pretty confident this kid is probably overall the most talented kid in the entire program based on JBB's description of him. Rather than lamenting how badly he is being treated which is out of his control, why not turn that negative energy into a positive by tuning all that out, becoming the hardest worker on the team, letting the chips fall where they may, and most of all - having FUN no matter what those coaches SAY or DO. It is indeed possible to have fun, it's all in your perspective. Are you a problem solver or a victim?

The other side of the coin-- perhaps, just perhaps, the young boy in question has been bragging around town and in school about his talent---thus the "buzz"---coaches might be hearing things they dont like

quote:

However, do you see any point in beating down a kid (a very talented one) without provocation? Is that a good way to build the confidence of a 14/15-year old kid who will possibly carry your program in a couple of years? Is this attitude of demeaning new players a proper way to build your program for the future?

If he is beat down he is in the wrong sport. Parents get beat down players have mental toughness.

TRHit--kind of what I was thinking too. Although it is all speculation.

Baseball is still a team sport and a prima donna mentality on a public school baseball team can really wreck team chemistry and breed a lot of resentment. OTOH, if the kid is really talented and a team player, I too bet he'll land on varsity by the end of the season (if they're playing into the post-season).

With public schools, in a way honestly sometimes you get what you pay for. I actually don't mean that in a negative way. I chose for my kids to attend the public high school in part because I think they get less spoiled and more used to handling situations on their own than in private schools, although I know that is a broad generalization. I think part of this whole thing is playing with the hand you are dealt because that is what life is all about, instead of complaining about it (not saying the dad in question is complaining) and trying to change coaches, etc.

Also--freshmen on varsity are often resented and hassled by the older players, making for a less than ideal experience all the way around. Again, team chemistry is such a big part of the equation.

A bit of humility and patience might pay huge dividends here. In the big scheme of things, it is about 3 months out of 14 years and nothing is going to be determined for the long haul in that space of time (unless they overuse him and hurt his arm!!). I think that family should just see how things play out, get to know the other families, be friendly and supportive at games, etc. When the other parents see that kind of attitude, they are probably going to become the boy's loudest supporters and be urging that he be allowed to play up and help the team win!

As stupid as it sounds, lots of HS teams do this. They roster according to grade and not ability. It's crazy. Hopefully they will see this is not the way to go and will roster kids where they belong.

We live on the border between two HS that have open enrollment and are both excellent academically. Oldest son attended HS A. My middle son hit .489 as an 8th grade starting SS on JV for HS A. He was far and away their best player. The coaches told him he had to play another year of JV because they were promoting the 9th grade MODIFIED (usually 7-8 graders) over my son to varsity. Anyway, HS B coach called and said if my son was interested in attending that school, he would be given the opportunity to try out for varsity. Long story short, the brothers split up and middle son played 4 yrs of varsity at HS B, led them to states twice, and received post-season awards every year. He was eventually named All-State.

All because HS A wouldn't even let himn try out. Just stupid.

How about this idea. You let the kids tryout and then you decide what team they play on , where they play and how much they play based on their ability. Players need to know that hard work will be rewarded and nothing will be given to them it must be earned. But they also need to know that if they earn it they will be rewarded. If my best pitcher is a freshman he will be on the hill, period. I dont care how many senior pitchers I have. Whoever can get the job done the best will be on the field regardless of what grade they are in. If your a senior and you can not beat out a freshman maybe you should have worked harder over the last four years. Your job as a coach is to put the guys on the field that give you and your players the best chance to win. You owe that to your players. What are you saying to the young guys that have worked so hard to come into HS baseball and contribute by not giving them an opportunity? What are you saying to the upperclassman when you award playing time based on longevity? Our players want whoever can help them win on the field. The jersey does not say Freshman Soph Jr Sr. A double by a freshman is 2 bags just like a senior. As far as players hazing an underclassman , they will embrace their team mate and they will mentor their team mate or they will be watching us practice and play from the parking lot. As far as parents being upset about it I could give a rats A**! They are not the coach and they are not responsible for putting the best team on the field. I want freshman and sophs with swagger. I do not want kids that are willing to concede anything to anyone based on anything. I want everyone to want to be varsity and want a starting posistion. Im not saying that I will tolerate anyone that will not respect their team mates. But what kind of player comes into a program and just concedes that others are better than him? Let the players decide that. Not the coach before the battle has even started. Sorry for this long post. I seem to be getting very long winded lately I apologize.

That was a good post, CM.

TR - With respect to this particular kid, you couldn't be farther off base. No need to try and read too much into this...there isn't much more to it than some very inexperienced coaches.

The "buzz" is all around because the kid has played with some of the already varsity players and excelled...big time. Thats where the buzz is coming from...they were expecting him to get a shot and excited about it. He is a very quiet kid.

quote:

If he is beat down he is in the wrong sport. Parents get beat down players have mental toughness.

It sometimes befuddles me how one can try and read too much into a simple situation.

To my knowledge, he is not beat down...but I'm sure the coach was trying to accomplish this. He's a quiet and confident kid. Its one of the things that makes him so good...he is one of the calmest kids I've ever seen in game situations...at the plate, on the bump. His makeup is off the charts.

Lets stop trying to read "bad kid" into this. Nothing could be further from reality here. This kid is a stud who is dealing (fairly well I might add...its ME who doesn't like what I hear) with this situation better than most. And nope, not my son either. Just a son of a friend.

quote:

Originally posted by justbaseball:
Lets stop trying to read "bad kid" into this. Nothing could be further from reality here. This kid is a stud who is dealing (fairly well I might add...its ME who doesn't like what I hear) with this situation better than most. And nope, not my son either. Just a son of a friend.

I think JBB has been around the block a few times and oughta know the difference between bad kid and bad situation.

JBB - My advice to the dad would be "Step back, relax and see how things unfold. You can't change it so see how it works out". Yes, they do sound inexperienced and immature. But I'm guessing their egos will get the best of 'em and they'll want to win. Come May (if not sooner) if the kid's got game, they'll be playing him.

I don't think anyone is saying "Bad Kid". I think CD said it well. The coach is the coach and maybe "Bad Coach". I wouln't say that either. we are not being judemental because we don't have all the facts. If the coach is saying the way it is then that is the way it is. We have all been there at some point in our son's careeres and you just deal with it. We have all felt our son's were being short changed but it is up to the young man to show what he is made of and create his shots. I didn't think any of the posts were negative towards this player. As in the Playing Up thread there is some great advice about dealing with the realities of BB.

JBB, I believed and understood you the first time you posted this thread.
I want everybody to remember that all this coaches want to win.
No matter if there the Varsity coach, are the JV coach, are the Freshman coach.
In the back room these coaches are trying to put together competitive team's.
The Varsity guy get's first Dib's.
Then the JV and Freshman Coach duke it out for the other great players that are left.
And if there is a talented Freshman they both want him??
Sometimes it's a coin flip that determine's who get's him??
Are there's a trade off. Just something to think about.
EH

quote:

I want everybody to remember that all this coaches want to win.

IMHO - this is the most over used quote.

Sometimes, not all, coaches want to prove they are right.

I have seen times where a coach keeps a player on the bench when another kid is struggling or is not as good. Finally gives the kid on the bench a chance and he makes an error or strikes out...the kid got one shot, and in the coaches mind proved he was right. One inning, one at bat does not show a players abilities.

There is politics/bad decisions in baseball, lets not sugar coat it.

quote:

Originally posted by theEH:
JBB, I believed and understood you the first time you posted this thread.
I want everybody to remember that all this coaches want to win.
No matter if there the Varsity coach, are the JV coach, are the Freshman coach.
In the back room these coaches are trying to put together competitive team's.
The Varsity guy get's first Dib's.
Then the JV and Freshman Coach duke it out for the other great players that are left.
And if there is a talented Freshman they both want him??
Sometimes it's a coin flip that determine's who get's him??
Are there's a trade off. Just something to think about.
EH

I am really against players transferring to schools due to sports, but situations like the coaches putting false restrictions on players could open my thoughts to the matter.

If the coaches are trying to keep the younger players on their teams, it should not matter that the freshman or JV teams win "league", who really cares, because if the school puts their best players up on varsity because they are the best players, that is really what matters.

From the development point of reference, I have always believe in playing at the highest level possible for the point of long term development, it does no player any good to totally dominate the opponent, I think it breeds mediocrity. Not that stats mean anything, but I laugh when a player says they hit at a certain average, but when you look at what really happened, they hit .500 against very weak pitchers and .000 against half decent pitchers.

Coach May,

I wish you coached 900 miles north. Great post.

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
I don't think anyone is saying "Bad Kid". I think CD said it well. The coach is the coach and maybe "Bad Coach". I wouln't say that either. we are not being judemental because we don't have all the facts.

Nobody said he was a bad kid, it was implied there may be other issues. My response was that I would think that, even though JBB is friends with the dad, he would be honest with the guy and tell him he's barking up the wrong tree if he felt that was the case.

Also, I'm not willing to call the coach a "bad coach". Do I agree with his tactics? No way. But there have been a few coaches I played for that I didn't like or didn't like the way they went about their business. That doesn't mean they're a bad coach though.

Catcher - Good point in stating "Sometimes, not all, coaches want to prove they are right." Let's hope that's not the case.

HR04

quote:

If the coaches are trying to keep the younger players on their teams, it should not matter that the freshman or JV teams win "league", who really cares, because if the school puts their best players up on varsity because they are the best players, that is really what matters.

I don't disagree, I'm saying that it happen's that way sometime's.
It doesn't matter if they win League EXCEPT to the Player's the Coaches the Parent's of the player's on that team.
No matter what team your on, they want to win.
If the coach has picked his Varsity roster.
The JV and Freshman Coaches Sometime's have a tug of war for the Talented freshman Player.

Long term development is not going to be affected one bit, If a Freshman does not make Varsity.
The Talented Freshman is also an example to the rest of the freshman player's. They learn from a talented player, Hard work, Good Attitude, Team Player.
You develop in the summer and the off season.
At Small School a Talented Freshman has a better chance of making Varsity.
But in Cali and i'm sure in other area's a Freshman is hard pressed to make a Varsity roster.
And it has nothing to do with Talent.
A very good pitcher 6'3" 210# Freshman, Sophmore, from Sacramento
With all the talent to play Varsity.
Played JV till his Junior Year. That's just the way it is.
He was not adversly affected.
And nether will other freshman be adversly affected.
JMO
EH

both of my sons have gotten the (nobodys on the team )speach. even in college, that's said to incite some hard work from the players. i also believe freshman in any school need to earn what they get. thats the pecking order. that's why varsity gets the best of things and it trickles down from there.
new coaches always have to put their own stamp on a team, right or wrong their fate is in their own hands. i would bet when this shakes out,the best players will be on the varsity. even a blind squirrel finds a nut now and then.

quote:

Coach May posted: How about this idea. You let the kids tryout and then you decide what team they play on, where they play and how much they play based on their ability.

Hmmm... put the 4 or 5 best pitchers at the school on varsity? What a novel idea!

It amazes me that coaches would try something different. I see way too many coaches try to re-invent the wheel, apparently out of a lack of experience. At the time we just called it government baseball. Apopogies to any government employees.

BTW, to add another piece to this puzzle...this same coach last year told a freshman (HS player) he was "redshirting" him.

What the he!! does that mean (in HS)?!?!

And lastly (for now), the kid's father is handling this WAY better than me (his friend). His dad doesn't "despise" anyone nor is he angry...just told me what is going on. Its ME! I'm just kind of tired of foolish people who are put in charge.

Are we to think that if this kid ends up on the freshman team and dominates that he won't get a call up, or the same at the JV level. Even if that is the case, it the coach who loses.

High school ball is just one piece of his baseball future (maybe the smallist piece). Play it at what ever level he is assigned, enjoy it, work on his game and continue to improve. I don't care what team he is playing on there's always room for improvement, as I told my son when he was put on the freshman team and his friends were on the JV. Pitching is pitching, no matter how good the guy at the plate is.

quote:

Originally posted by obrady:
Pitching is pitching, no matter how good the guy at the plate is.

Can't go along with that. When Texan Son was playing on his HS team as a soph, the opposing teams were so weak that he couldn't throw his changeup - that was the only pitch they could catch up to. And he didn't have incredible speed.

You don't get develop much throwing against weak hitters. You develop as a pitcher by throwing against tough hitters.

Originally posted by justbaseball:
BTW, to add another piece to this puzzle...this same coach last year told a freshman (HS player) he was "redshirting" him.

What the he!! does that mean (in HS)?!?!


How funny! Will he have him for five years as well?

It is situations that this is where you say why put up with high school baseball vs just focusing on his travel team where he may challenged and develop more pitching against better competition.

I am sure that this coach will take credit for this player when he goes to the next level, but have not contributing him to getting there.