Don't want to brag, son just hit 86

Doughnut ... your boy hit 86mph at 15???? You owe it to yourself to brag! Congrats. Your #1 job, IMO, is to safeguard his arm!!!!!

Good luck to him...

WOW! That is GREAT!
I can hear the door squeaking as it begins to open.
Fungo

Doughnutman - You have a PM!

Doughnutman, my son hit 86 this past summer just before he turned 16. During the fall, he only pitched in a few select events. Obviously, he wasn't in "game shape" when he did it. He wound up having some elbow pain at the end of the fall. It is OK now, but it really got me thinking that 86 is pretty fast and I'm sure puts a lot of strain on the arm. I think this is a time, when you get over 85 mph or so, that arm care and being in condition to throw become even more important. What I have been getting a handle on is really making sure his mechanics are sound and he has been doing plenty of throwing before he gets on the mound for any extensive throwing. Like others have said, I think when a kid gets throwing that hard, be careful and protect the arm. Sound mechanics and make sure his arm and body are in shape. Good luck to you and your son!!

bballman brings up some good points.

Having high velocity at a young age, as great as that is, brings on a whole set of new problems.

Make sure he isn't throwing all arm, if so, you need to make adjustments. And watch the time he puts in on the mound, hard throwers tend to get over used, often.

That's great!I agree with Mr. bballman and Mr. TPM. He'll be likely in Varsity but just make sure to take care of that arm especially at his young age. Proper mechanics is key. He probably has not fully developed yet. I hope he won't be just labeled a pitcher as I know he plays other positions. I would recommend looking for a good pitching coach within your area +/- video analysis to give instant feedback.

PROCEED WITH CAUTION.
Good Luck!

RR23

Ryanrod23,
That's Mrs. TPM, but hey you didn't know. Just an assumption that dads got the market cornered on baseball knowledge and what is right and wrong, what works and doesn't work.

86!!!
On the lighter side: What does 86 really mean?
velocity

86 at 15 years old?!? Wow, quite impressive. Must be blowing away everbody!

Now the next task is to make sure he can really pitch!

But regardless that velo is very intriguing for a young arm. Good luck!
---------------------

How big is he?

Don't know about Doughnut man's kid, mine is around 5'9", 170. He can pitch. In fact his control has always been his forte. Also has a good change and a good breaking ball. He will throw either in any count. I agree, velocity is important, but control is what it is all about. I have seen kids at PG events who throw over 90, but to the backstop. They will get looks as well because of their velocity, but I have always stressed control and hitting your spots to my son. He knows no matter how hard you throw, hitters can catch up to it. You better put it where you want and change speeds to be effective at the higher levels.

donut,
You are bragging, but it is OK.

bballman,
Sorry but as important as control/command is, it is not what it is all about. It is about the mixture of velocity, command and movement and of the three command is the one a pitcher is more likely to be able to develop as opposed to come by "naturally". That's why the ones with velocity and movement get the looks. Fortunately, the reality is that pitchers can improve their velocity, especially earlier on if they work at it. Ask Bum. However, the pitcher who focuses on control and off speed pitches to the detriment of developing velocity is most likely headed toward a dead end. A pitcher can work on both. Ask Bum.

CADad, if you look back, you will note that I said velocity is important. However, without control, you will just walk alot of guys. I agree that movement is also very important. There is no question that velocity is king. Velocity will get you looks. Velocity without control will only get you so far unless you learn how to control your pitches.

Velocity, with control along with movement AND off speed pitches that you have control over will get you anywhere you want to go.

I still say, no matter how hard you throw, at a high level of competition, the hitters will catch up. If you are just chucking it down the middle, it will get hit. I really think pitchers should focus on velocity, but you cannot forget about control/command.

quote:

Originally posted by bballman:
Velocity without control will only get you so far unless you learn how to control your pitches.

Here we go again...

The same can be said of control. It will only get you so far until you have to have more velocity.

Rob, I think that's my point. You must have both. Either one is pretty good up to a point. To get past that point - to the highest level, you have to have both.

If I am playing a mid to low level HS schedule, throwing 90 will get me by. If I am going to pitch at Jupiter, against a line up of the best hitters in the country, I better have both if I really want to be effective.

Having watched one of the best HS leagues in the nation play for a few years I'll tell you that although 90 may have an off day, any pitcher who can consistently throw 90 down the middle will be very successful. Even in a good HS lineup there will typically only be 2 or 3 hitters who can actually handle 90. I remember the kids from our school telling me how they could handle Robert Stock when he was a sophmore because he just threw it down the middle. Then I looked at the stats. They didn't handle Robert Stock.

There are also major league pitchers who don't have great control but just plain throw hard/have great stuff. Schlereth would be an example.

Yeah, they remember the hits they got. They tend to forget they went 4-for-25 as a team!

I do realize that we are in agreement that it takes more than just velocity or just control to be effective.

Doughnutman, would your son happen to use Jon Doyle's programs?

To answer a few questions he is 6'2" or so 175 and just started shaving so I think he is finished growing. But he has size 15 shoes so maybe not. He has never had a pitching lesson and never worked out. I guess it is time to get some lessons and a trainer.

think Nuke LaLooish. If we had a mascot he might hit it. Keeps them loose in the box.

He realy should start working out. Even if he is not done growing it would be perfectly fine to do so as lifting PROPERLY will not stunt growth.

If you have never heard of Jon Doyle I would ask that you look at his products and his website, baseballtrainingsecrets.com. He also has posted quite a few times on here.

The product I think you should look at is Unbreakable Abs. That product alone will increase velocity.

Also get him on a good rotator cuff program! Throwers10, Renegade FIX, Jaeger Thrive On Throwing and JBands...one of those.

Just my two cents...Hope it works out

Don't just find him a pitching coach. Find an established pitching coach with a reputation and college connections. A pro scout led my son to an established pitching coach who saw minute flaws no one else has detected. He's helped place several hundred pitchers in college ball and has a lot of college contacts.

Your son has a great arm. That is an understatement. Congrats! I have had some great arms come through my hs program over the years. We have been very fortunate in that respect. Just to give you and idea of how they progressed.

Matt Harrison LHP 6-4 195 as a freshman 78-80
Sr year 6-5 210 89-93 3rd rd pick Atlanta
Starting rotation for Texas Rangers

Chris Luck RHP 6-2 160 as a freshman 86-88
Sr year 6-3 178 88-92 20th rd pick Tampa

Pratt Maynard RHP 5-11 190 as a freshman 83-85
Sr year 6-0 210 88-91
Soph at NC State Catching and infield

Josh Darroach RHP 5-11 185 82-85 as a freshman
Sr year 6-0 200 85-88
Mt Olive Freshman

Antwain Evans RHP 6-1 190 82-84 as a freshman
Sr year 6-3 225 85-87
St Augustines college

Shelton Moore RHP 6-4 230 84-85 as a freshman
Sr year 6-5 255 90-93
NC A@T

Curt Watkins
5-9 140 75-78 as a freshman
Sr year 85-88 as a senior
Lenoir Comm College

There have been more. The common thread in all of the guys that came in with above average arms that left with outstanding arms and the ability to pitch at a high level was their work ethic in the off season. Make sure your son continues to work very hard on his mechanics. Works very hard in the off season to improve on his conditioning , core strength , arm strength etc. Make sure he doesnt get over used because this can happen to a kid with an outstanding arm.

The future looks bright for your son. I look forward to keeping up with him and his progress. Good luck

bballman, The arm moving at a young age can cause some problems with the health of the pitcher. Sometimes mechanics will not be the issue. We had two pitchers as freshman that were touching 90. As Juniors they were now topping out at 97. Both developed problems with the shoulder but it was nothing structural. It was the muscles in the back of the shoulder that were the issue. The arm was moving too fast for those muscles. Basically, the arm was ahead of the shoulder muscles. They took very good care of themselves but both went through the same issue around the same time of the year. The player who graduated in 2007 was taken in the fist round by the Twins as an outfielder. The pitcher who graduates this year is doing fine and very aware of taking care of the arm. Just keep a close eye on pitchers who have a good size jump in velocity in rather short time.

About control. I agree with CADad. If you have velo and movement you will get looks regardless of control. Dylan Covey, the 2nd pitcher I am talking about above. He was rather wild his first two years in HS school. He body was maturing as well his velocity increasing so he was constantly making adjustments. In his Junior his growth slowed down a bit and he velocity was starting to level off. He was sitting around 92-94 while touching 97. When this happened his control came...well under control. He is strike machine now. It just took sometime for him to get feel and rhythm while he was maturing. The pattern I described seemed to fit all of the guys we have had on our program that were high velocity guys. A little wild as frosh and soph and control came as the matured physically. It just takes some time.

I'll agree with that. Decelerator muscles are usually the least focused on and are usually the first to cause problems. When an arm is moving that fast, most people don't think about what it takes to slow it down.

In regards to control, I'm sure what you are saying about your guys is true. One way or the other, at some point, control needs to be worked on. I think, to a certain extent, velocity is a god-given talent. Control is something you can work on and must get a handle on to get to the highest levels. I think probably the lower your velocity, the more important control is in high school.

What others have said is probably true. If you can throw 90+ and just get the ball over the plate in HS, you will probably be fine. If you want to play in the MLB, better know exactly where you are throwing it.

Doughnutman, my oldest was at 89 at 16, but stalled there due to shoulder strain issues. He stopped pitching for a few years (at 19), and is now in the 90's, the point being that the problem sgv brought up may be quite common...

Thanks for the info. I will make sure the decelerators are worked.

To Doughnutman's and bballman's son:

Great job! Keep up the hard work!

quote:

Originally posted by Coach_May:
Your son has a great arm. That is an understatement. Congrats! I have had some great arms come through my hs program over the years. We have been very fortunate in that respect. Just to give you and idea of how they progressed.

Matt Harrison LHP 6-4 195 as a freshman 78-80
Sr year 6-5 210 89-93 3rd rd pick Atlanta
Starting rotation for Texas Rangers

Chris Luck RHP 6-2 160 as a freshman 86-88
Sr year 6-3 178 88-92 20th rd pick Tampa

Pratt Maynard RHP 5-11 190 as a freshman 83-85
Sr year 6-0 210 88-91
Soph at NC State Catching and infield

Josh Darroach RHP 5-11 185 82-85 as a freshman
Sr year 6-0 200 85-88
Mt Olive Freshman

Antwain Evans RHP 6-1 190 82-84 as a freshman
Sr year 6-3 225 85-87
St Augustines college

Shelton Moore RHP 6-4 230 84-85 as a freshman
Sr year 6-5 255 90-93
NC A@T

Curt Watkins
5-9 140 75-78 as a freshman
Sr year 85-88 as a senior
Lenoir Comm College

There have been more. The common thread in all of the guys that came in with above average arms that left with outstanding arms and the ability to pitch at a high level was their work ethic in the off season. Make sure your son continues to work very hard on his mechanics. Works very hard in the off season to improve on his conditioning , core strength , arm strength etc. Make sure he doesnt get over used because this can happen to a kid with an outstanding arm.

The future looks bright for your son. I look forward to keeping up with him and his progress. Good luck

Just an interseting observation: All of these big freshmen except one only grew an inch in HS.