Double checking

The award is two bases from last legally held base at time of throw in your first scenario, and, in the second, two bases from last legally held base at the time of pitch.

Sounds like the umps were 1 for 2. (Not bad for a batter, not good for an umpire.)

That was my original understanding of the rule but I thought I remembered M. Taylor recently stated that the act of an IF catching a ball was not tehcnically the first 'play' and therfore it was only 1 base top.

Just to expand a bit, because it is frequently confused, yet remarkably simple:
Any throw by a fielder (including a pitcher if he isn't in contact with the rubber) which goes out of play results in a 2 base award. Always!

The only way a ball thrown out of play can be a one base award is if a in-contact pitcher throws or pitches the ball out of play.

The rules to determine if the award is from TOP or TOT are a little more complicated....

Edited to add:
No way Michael Taylor said that. But be careful:
On a slow roller to short, F6 fields the ball and throws it out of play after the runner has already reached first. The B/R is awarded second, because it is 2 bases from TOP. But it is possible to wrongly believe the award of 2nd is one base from TOT.

quote:

Originally posted by 3FingeredGlove:

On a slow roller to short, F6 fields the ball and throws it out of play after the runner has already reached first. The B/R is awarded second, because it is 2 bases from TOP. But it is possible to wrongly believe the award of 2nd is one base from TOT.

If the B/R and all other runners (if any) have reached their advance base at the time of the throw, the award is 2 bases from the TOT. So in your example, the B/R should get 3rd.

quote:

Originally posted by Tangents23:
That was my original understanding of the rule but I thought I remembered M. Taylor recently stated that the act of an IF catching a ball was not tehcnically the first 'play' and therfore it was only 1 base top.

I doubt Mr. Taylor ever said that.

I just looked back and realized that I was half right, but missed the crucial last part.

Posted March 17, 2010 08:45 AM Hide Post
You're sneaky, Mike.

For the purpose of this rule (base awards) the act of fielding the batted ball is not considered a play. Therefore, the SS throw into dead ball area is the first play. Award two bases, TOP.

dash,
I meant the ball went out of play after B/R reached first. Darn few F6s will release the ball after B/R crosses first.

People reach the conclusion that this is one base from TOT in part because they only notice the position of runners after the ball is out of play.