Double relays

I see double relays as essential and therefore find the time to teach it and get reps, especially early in the season before games start. The toughest part in teaching it to high school kids is getting the trailer to position himself correctly in terms of distance from the lead guy. Usually they are either too close or too far away. Once they get the distance down pat, a maintenance drill every other week or so usually is fine. At least in my opinion.

BaseballByTheYard

... here is a post I wrote on it.

http://baseballbytheyard.blogs...7/double-relays.html

In my experience the trailer is usually too close, much like a pitcher who tries to back up a base at a close distance, thereby not giving himself enough reaction time.
I enjoy your site Meach, very well done.

I agree it's an important aspect of the game. Can make a difference in whether an inning "blows up" on you or not.

The first time we coach it we actually have the OF start from a fixed point at the wall and have cones set up for mid IFs to run to and set up by so they can get a feel for the distance.

Double relays are pretty much the norm in AZ. It is taught to the kids in Freshman ball that don't use it in travel or rec and by the time they are on Varsity it is a habit that has been ingrained. It really doesn't take much time out from practices. Some early season work and they have it down. I don't remember the last time it wasn't done at the JV or V level in the last 3 years. It usually doesn't get you anymore outs, but it keeps kids from getting an extra base and that can make all the difference in a close game.

quote:

Originally posted by ironhorse:
I agree it's an important aspect of the game. Can make a difference in whether an inning "blows up" on you or not.

The first time we coach it we actually have the OF start from a fixed point at the wall and have cones set up for mid IFs to run to and set up by so they can get a feel for the distance.

Love it.

quote:

Originally posted by meachrm:
... here is a post I wrote on it.

http://baseballbytheyard.blogs...7/double-relays.html

Excellent work! Thanks for taking the time.

http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=3134880

Ball or base! Get involved! Who wants ITTTTTT???!!!!!

(And I hate the Yankees!)

One of my first practices as head coach I decided to put these in (we called them double cuts though). I'm standing behind the mound and I toss the ball up and yell "DOUBLE CUT" and hit a laser into the RF corner. Nobody moved and just stared at me. They had no idea what I was talking about. I spent the next 15 minutes explaining how and why we do these. For the next eight years we had no problem with them at all and the most time we spent in practice was maybe at most 15 minutes.

Yes at the start of each season we had to work on proper distance and the things you guys have talked about but once you get it in - it's in.

We use them and must. Including our park their all but 1 in our league are to big to get away with a single cut. We spend a lot of time in the fall working on the double relay.

So, what do you guys do with ball hit down right field line with a lead runner at first?

3B, SS, 2B, RF in a line towards third like normal. This is where we want the ball going right away. The 1B is near the mound area getting aligned between the SS and 2B in case the ball has to come to the plate to act as the relay.

Only communicating (besides lining up) is done by the catcher who has the play in front of him. Ball is automatically going to third so if it has to change he makes the call.

Yeah, agreed coach. The reason I ask is because one of Meach's variations has 1b as the trailer down RF line. For me, this just adds another level of cut and trail responsibilities to 1b that can cause unecessary confusion.

To me that's something with advanced players - strong arms / accurate arms because I doubt the average high school team can pull this off. This is something that depends on many situations / variables like runner on first, score, point in the game, skill level. I've never had a team where I thought I could teach this and execute it properly.

Isn't this basically the Jeter play.....without Jeter?

Sorry if I didn't make this clear in the post. The variation I mentioned was on a play going to home plate. Any throw to 3B would involve the normal double relay with the 2B and SS. Here is the dilemma for the SS. Ball is hit down the RF line. Does the SS line up 3B or home? That's a big difference as to where he goes. That's why I've always had the 1B "roam" since he is already over there and doesn't have much to do. He (1B) really has to watch the throw from the OF though. If the throw is a good one, he stays back farther towards his normal 1B cut position. If the throw is bad, he moves towards the 2B to help. I actually think that's easier since it involves less running around.
I like the cone drill mentioned earlier!

BaseballByTheYard

quote:

Originally posted by meachrm:
Sorry if I didn't make this clear in the post. The variation I mentioned was on a play going to home plate. Any throw to 3B would involve the normal double relay with the 2B and SS. Here is the dilemma for the SS. Ball is hit down the RF line. Does the SS line up 3B or home? That's a big difference as to where he goes. That's why I've always had the 1B "roam" since he is already over there and doesn't have much to do. He (1B) really has to watch the throw from the OF though. If the throw is a good one, he stays back farther towards his normal 1B cut position. If the throw is bad, he moves towards the 2B to help. I actually think that's easier since it involves less running around.
I like the cone drill mentioned earlier!

BaseballByTheYard

If 1B is trailer, who is the cutoff man to HP?? As far as where does SS line up, we always line up to 3B and adjust to home.

quote:

Originally posted by trojan-skipper:
In my experience the trailer is usually too close, much like a pitcher who tries to back up a base at a close distance, thereby not giving himself enough reaction time.
I enjoy your site Meach, very well done.

T/S,

I think they should be close. What I teach is that the lead guy should field perfect throws only. Anything that shorthops him, should be a nice long hop to the trail guy. Anything over lead guys head, should hit trail guy in the chest.

In terms of wanting them to be close - in feet how close do you have the MIF to each other? I teach the same thing you just said - short hop and over the head goes to the floater. I tell them they need to be around 6 - 8 feet apart and adjust to the throw in flight. Also, another teaching point is they have to run when the OF is running. When he stops then they stop. This helps with setting up and being in line with the 3B. On weaker arms they have to get on their horse and get out there but a stronger arm they can now play farther back but it's all proportional to how much the OF runs.

Hope that makes sense.

quote:

Originally posted by coach2709:
In terms of wanting them to be close - in feet how close do you have the MIF to each other? I teach the same thing you just said - short hop and over the head goes to the floater. I tell them they need to be around 6 - 8 feet apart and adjust to the throw in flight. Also, another teaching point is they have to run when the OF is running. When he stops then they stop. This helps with setting up and being in line with the 3B. On weaker arms they have to get on their horse and get out there but a stronger arm they can now play farther back but it's all proportional to how much the OF runs.

Hope that makes sense.

You're right on the money with how I teach it. When you said the biggest problem is with kids being too close, I assumed you had your "floater" back a lot farther since I have to keep forcing my guys to get to that 6 - 10' range!

We have our trail guy deeper than that...It seems if you have an over throw that 6-8 feet will not be back far enough, and short hops will bounce more than 6-8 feet. Our trail guy is closer to 15ft. Plus it gives the trailer more reaction time if the ball get by the cutoff man.

Help me please.

Double cut down the right field line, the Second Baseman goes out, the First Baseman trails him, with the Shortstop covering 2B. Down the left field line the Shortstop goes out, the Second Baseman trails, and the First Baseman gets 2B. Am I being simple simon or what?

ok Nicholas25, what about with a runner on 1B - the double relay to the plate . . .

quote:

Originally posted by Nicholas25:
Help me please.

Double cut down the right field line, the Second Baseman goes out, the First Baseman trails him, with the Shortstop covering 2B. Down the left field line the Shortstop goes out, the Second Baseman trails, and the First Baseman gets 2B. Am I being simple simon or what?

Use of the double cut assumes a potential triple by the hitter or the runner on 1st Base potentially scoring. Double cut is still the same (SS & 2B), your 1B would not be part of the double cut. No need for the SS to cover 2nd Base since we are assuming a triple, you always want to throw ahead of the runner, now if you want you can have the 1B trail the runner to 2nd base. This is how I teach it.

Me too stand ball. If there is a runner on 1st your 1b needs to stay in cutoff position to make a throw home if necessary. Nobody on then he trails the runner to first to defend a big turn.

.

I agree - all double cuts / double relays / tandems (whatever you call it) need to have the MIF in the middle of the line. Nobody on then the 1B trails runner to hold him or nail if it's a huge turn.

Balls hit down the lines with runner on first you can use the CF to hold the runner / nail the runner rounding second. He's not doing anything so might as well make him productive. Obviously he can't sneak in but as long as he's there it will keep them close.

I don't see a problem with nicholas 25's theory on the first baseman handling the trail end of a dbl cut to the plate from the righ field corner, if it's the righ field corner only, not the cf/rf gap. Seems like a matter of effeciency. SS can stay in the middle infield if the throw is re-routed to third he can pick up the trail cut. On all other plays 1b can trail the runner to 2b

It's better for the trailer to be too close than too far. If he is too close, he can always back up towards the infield when the throw from the OF is made. It also allows him to generate some momentum on his throw. If he is too far from the lead guy and the throw goes over the head of the lead guy, he (the trailer) may have to move forward (towards the lead guy) to catch it before it hits the ground. Of course, if he does this his momentum is heading towards the OF when he has to throw back to the INF. Not a good combo.

BaseballByTheYard

Will last night I saw confirmation of why double relays work. . . outfielder overthrew cutoff and the second cut was there to play the ball on a short hop and then the first baseman was trailing to cover second base. Our luck the hitter over ran second base heading towards third and BAM got him as he tried to get back to second.

Meach, i still want him back and not in that guys hip pocket. My logic is backwards of yours. It's easier to come up and get the ball... the ball is the key, keep it off the ground. If we overthrow them both and the ball is on the ground their 3rd base coach is a windmill.
I value that over the momentum gained by moving back toward the infield when catching the ball (or chasing it like a puppy) ha... I'm probably wrong but it ain't the first time

there are not many hs arms that can throw a runner out at home or third---thus the double relay

quote:

Originally posted by kdog:
Will last night I saw confirmation of why double relays work. . . outfielder overthrew cutoff and the second cut was there to play the ball on a short hop and then the first baseman was trailing to cover second base. Our luck the hitter over ran second base heading towards third and BAM got him as he tried to get back to second.

I'm amazed that anyone wouldn't use tandem relays in the standard situations that call for them.

MIFs with a basic level of baseball IQ learn them real fast at age 13. In later years, it's just a question of reinforcing and reminding them.

Another reason for the importance of tandem-relays:
OF's need to get rid of the ball quickly. In the absence of a backup guy in tandem situations, many OFs would take a lot more time to make sure of their throw, which is bad.

I agree with TS that I'd rather err on having my relay guys too far apart than too close together. For two reasons: 1. less likely that the ball gets loose; 2. more likely to reassure the OF that he can get rid of the ball quicker because of less worry about ball getting loose

I played OF. I didn't trust the accuracy of my arm. That makes me a better coach than I otherwise would be. Many HS OFs don't trust their arms...for many of them, that's why they converted to the OF after youth baseball.

Part of coaching is to have a sixth sense for players who don't trust their arms. Often these players are good at covering it up. One tell-tale sign for OFs is an elaborate crow-hop. Perhaps they believe it improves their accuracy. Perhaps they're trying to delay the inevitable (throwing the ball).

As a dad: 3 sons trusted their arms. The 4th had a cannon. But his crow hop was baroque.

Sorry, off topic.

Hey Trojan-Skipper, we are definitely on the same page! At times, it's tough to put things into words that completely erase any vagueness. I think we agree on what "too close" and "too far" mean...even though I may not always explain it well!

BaseballByTheYard