Drop/Drive/Leap

Did you expect a better response?

I'm not advocating the leap. Yeah, in the video he does it, (though I believe he might be trying to be more explosive linear than "leaping" up), but it'd be nice to drive explosively towards the plate instead of going up then out. The "leap" up and exploding isn't as efficent as just exploding out. Staying in the air after the leg drive is completed is dissapating some energy that would be velocity.

From Dr. Rushall: "There is a reason why track runners do not jump out of the blocks as they accelerate. They start the first-step leg drive as soon as the block-drive is completed. That continues the acceleration. If they jumped, they would decelerate and fall back to earth while in the air (when no additive forces are being developed). That is what jumping does in pitching."

quote:

I'm not advocating the leap. Yeah, in the video he does it,

XFactor-
When you get a video of the preferred move, please post it.

I played against a pitcher at San Diego State that would drop, leap out 4-5 feet, and threw 88-91 mph....He was 5-6/5-8 with a very stocky build.

A day later our entire staff was trying to replicate what we saw a day earlier...we could not.

If you can repeat this delivery, more power to you, but I would not teach this delivery unless the student already had an element of this in thier style. Im not against this delivery, but I wont cookie cutter it either. There is an element that I like, and that being its not a look hitters see very often...I wouldnt mind having a style like that coming out of my bullpen.

Xfactor maybe you guy should try cricket.

You logic escapes me. Comparing pitching in hardball to track is rediculous. I was a sprinter all through HS. I agree you stay low and grive from the blocks with short stride until you get to full stride. It is nothing to do with your logic of exploding foreward.
Pushing off the rubber is bush and any professional instructor will tell you that.
That leap is how you pitch in softball and is ridichlous in BB. In softball it helps because you are throwing underhand and a much shorter distance. The upper body doesen't rotate like in BB.

Some things can be learned from cricket. It doesnt translate to pitching perfectly, but to poo poo it without taking it in doesnt make much sense either.

Here is an interesting video...

100.2 mph

Having been subjected to cricket for 3 year while studying in London I am aware of the similarities. There are a lot more BB pitchers that have broke that bearier that criket bowlers. Pitchers don't get a running start. Note how the bowler jumps in the air to get downward thrust, arm is straight over the top and he doesn't throw off speed pitches.
He is trying to knock down the stiks behind the plate and doesn't have to hit corners and all the other stuff a BB guy does.

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
Pitchers don't get a running start.

Not actually running, but make no mistake.... the better pitchers absolutly get a running start.

Deemax I think we see the same thing differently. Never seen a pitcher with a running start.

Here's a pretty decent vid for ya

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZF8VUvumXw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4WuWu1scBY

First one is 89, second is 92.

It appears to me that the Speedtrac unit you're using isn't in the best position for a reading OR it needs to be calibrated.

That did not look like 92 to me.

XF I don't see any pushing off the rubber there. Infact the the post leg and foot have no pressure on them at all.

The #'s on that gun are obviously switched.
Coach W

A couple of questions. How does this method of throwing contribute to pitching? Speed is but one part of the equation. To max out and throw is not pitching. The video seems to show the student missing the target considerably low and to the left. Is this typical or just a time he happened to miss? It seems to be a delivery that would be hard to repeat over the course of a game and from wind-up to stretch. Do you have any film of the same pitcher throwing off-speed pitches for strikes? I do not intend for this to sound negative, I am just curious if this is geared toward kids throwing all out as opposed to pitching.

Here is one that has to be an illegal pitch. Notice his back foot touches the ground a 2nd time in his stride before release.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PaTQ7hoUTcc

MTS i absoluteley love that guys delivery, he looks like he would be a fantastic closer.

quote:

Originally posted by XFactor:
Here's a pretty decent vid for ya

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZF8VUvumXw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4WuWu1scBY

First one is 89, second is 92.

Velocity is indeed a tool......but I believe it would be very difficult to command anything with that delivery.....let me rephrase....the kid in the video will have trouble commanding all of his pitches.......I am not talking about control.....and what does he do from the set??....sorry if it is posted....have not seen him throw from the set.....

quote:

Originally posted by deemax:
Some things can be learned from cricket. It doesnt translate to pitching perfectly, but to poo poo it without taking it in doesnt make much sense either.

Here is an interesting video...

100.2 mph

Maybe Lincecum's father modeled his motion after cricket bowlers?

quote:

Originally posted by deemax:

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
Pitchers don't get a running start.

Not actually running, but make no mistake.... the better pitchers absolutly get a running start.

Deemax,

You have mentioned this is the past, please explain your idea of this "running start" or point me to where you have already explained it.

Thanks

The running start that I am refering to is the hip leading the way ahead of the legs, and against reverse rotated shoulders. No stop at the top and balance, but not racing forward like a wind sprint either.


I also support a running start with arm action, this being done with a hand pump up, or hands over the head in the wind up. Once the pump up/wind up starts the pitching arm doesnt stop moving. This carries momentum into arm action... not a nessecity, just my personal preference. IMO it helps with timing and repeatability.

I understand what you are saying but I don't call that a running start.
The supplied video of a cricket bowler is a running start.

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
I understand what you are saying but I don't call that a running start.
The supplied video of a cricket bowler is a running start.

You can call it what you like.... What do you call it?

Its no different than the running start a hitter gets, and they are not actually running either. Pitchers get the advantage of getting as much time as they want (out of the wind up) to load and unload. Hitters have to be a little quicker and shorter for obvious reasons.

I call it leading with you back pocket.
I do agree that it allows you to keep your shoulders closed a little longer as your body starts forward and hpefully get more rotational strenght from your upper body. I also think it allows you to sit slightly and get your legs into the effort as well. How much extra velo it produces I am not sure.

The bowler is using a type of crow hop like fielders use to generat velo.

I would also like to poit out to pain if he is reading that Lincecum clearly shows the dreaded downward L that he talks about.

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
I would also like to poit out to pain if he is reading that Lincecum clearly shows the dreaded downward L that he talks about.

I agree and pointed this out in my breakdown of Lincecum's mechanics.

- Pitching Mechanics Analysis - Tim Lincecum

However, Lincecum's timing seems to be sound (e.g. better than Chris Carpenter's) and his PAS elbow seems to drop before his shoulders start to rotate, which is good.

Now is he prone to injury ? Has he been injured ?

I watched Carpenter for a few years. He rehabed here in St Catharines and I have seen him workout in person. His mechanics were solid. Some guys are prone to injury and some arne't. Good mechanics won't save them necessarily.

Deemax,

Thanx for the reply, still don't see the cricket influence in leading with the hip (running start) and I hope you can see where that term confused as the bowler does get what many would consider a true "running start"

I do agree the pitching arm should stay in motion once put in motion but...do you really want to add extra variables early in the motion by encouraging them to go overhead ?

BTW thank you for the info posted on Carleton's slider pure filth !

quote:

I do agree the pitching arm should stay in motion once put in motion but...do you really want to add extra variables early in the motion by encouraging them to go overhead ?

If they are comfortable with it, then yes. I will show it to kids who dont do it...some can repeat it, while others cant. Its case by case and not an absolute. IMO way to many instructors are taking measures to remove excess movement from the delivery. Its a mistake.

It CANT be one size fits all when teaching pitchers IMO. I hate cookie cutter deliveries, and as an instructor I make an effort to work with a kids style as much as possible.

The hesitation my son has is before the arm starts forward after balance.
I actually found he threw better witha slight hesitation while loading..

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
Now is he prone to injury ? Has he been injured?

I think that Licecum is probably less prone to injury than some, but he's no Maddux. At a minimum, Lincecum is a hard-throwing, max effort pitcher, which raises the risk some.

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
I watched Carpenter for a few years. He rehabed here in St Catharines and I have seen him workout in person. His mechanics were solid. Some guys are prone to injury and some arne't. Good mechanics won't save them necessarily.

Carpenter has a major timing problem (e.g. habitual rushing) that puts extra strain on his shoulder and elbow and that is only visible if you go through his mechanics frame by frame.

It's pretty much impossible to notice a timing problem with the naked eye.

Pain I am sure that the coaches know what they are looking at.

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
Pain I am sure that the coaches know what they are looking at.

The problem is that coaches tend to compare Chris Carpenter to Chris Carpenter, assuming that the problem is that his mechanics have changed. I know this is the problem with Mark Prior. See...

- Why Mark Prior's Problems Persist

IMO, the problem is that their mechanics have always been flawed, and those flaws are just now revealing themselves as they throw more and more pitches.

You can only see this by comparing an injury-prone guy like Carpenter to an injury-free guy like Maddux.

It's like the longeron fatigue problem that is currently affecting some of the F-15 fleet. Just because they flew for 30 years doesn't mean that they don't have a problem that will cause the cockpit to break off in mid-flight.

Your F 15 analogy is the same as a pitcher who throws for 30 years may break down. Everything has a limit even airplanes. If it flew for 30 years it is a great success.

Lincecum's style I would guess was chosen because that angle is intimidating and thus, the style is effective.

I for one do not like his mechanics from a long-term health perspective, but it has nothing to do with the "downward L".

First of all, as was discussed in a previous thread, TPG tends to confuse the downward L achieved on reachback with a similar arm position that can occur when the pitcher's reachback is nearly straight down, followed by his forming the "L" shape by pulling his hand up inside his elbow. The first habit is healthy and to be encouraged. The second habit is a recipe for injury, e.g., Mark Prior. Looking at photos in freeze frame tells you nothing because to evaluate the motion you'd have to see at what point in sequence the "L" shape was formed.

While Lincecum is by no means as smooth as the vintage Maddux clip, and the particular angle of this clip is not the best one to evaluate him from, as best I can tell he is in the proper downward L reachback position, and not the problematic downward L lift-up position.

That being said, Lincecum's arching of his back and pronounced head tilt give me concern. It is not unusual to see stress problems develop to the neck and front side of the shoulder in pitchers who use this style. And while Lincecum is obviously very effective, his motion is one that shows physical strain, not fluid effortlessness. To me this puts him at risk of eventual breakdown.

But, this is the style that got him to MLB, so for many pitchers it would be a price they would be willing to risk having to pay.

quote:

Originally posted by Midlo Dad:
First of all, as was discussed in a previous thread, TPG tends to confuse the downward L achieved on reachback with a similar arm position that can occur when the pitcher's reachback is nearly straight down, followed by his forming the "L" shape by pulling his hand up inside his elbow. The first habit is healthy and to be encouraged. The second habit is a recipe for injury, e.g., Mark Prior. Looking at photos in freeze frame tells you nothing because to evaluate the motion you'd have to see at what point in sequence the "L" shape was formed.

While Lincecum is by no means as smooth as the vintage Maddux clip, and the particular angle of this clip is not the best one to evaluate him from, as best I can tell he is in the proper downward L reachback position, and not the problematic downward L lift-up position.

Please tell me in what frame of this clip that Maddux reaches the downward L position.

#97 and then in #103 his elbow is above the axis of the shoulders... any more questions ???

TPG-

Why do you use this clip of Maddux?

quote:

Originally posted by Yankeelvr:
#97...

Not by a long shot. One of the defining characteristics is how low Maddux's PAS elbow stays.

quote:

Originally posted by Yankeelvr:
...and then in #103 his elbow is above the axis of the shoulders

In Frame 103, Maddux's PAS elbow is AT the level of his shoulders, not above the level of his shoulders. This happens to EVERY pitcher due to centrifugal force.

It just looks like it is above the level of his shoulders because his shoulders are tilted.



It's easier to see in this photo.

Here's a CF view of Maddux's arm action from when he was at Atlanta.

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quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
Your F 15 analogy is the same as a pitcher who throws for 30 years may break down. Everything has a limit even airplanes. If it flew for 30 years it is a great success.

It's throwing the air force's plans into disarray. The same thing happens when pitchers go down unexpectedly.

You should also talk to a B-52 guy.