dropped third strike

I'm not sure of any official ruling (the actual umpires on this board will chime in I'm sure), but unless these are pretty young kids first experiencing dropped third strike plays, they should all know that the batter is out if first is occupied and less than two outs. Maybe the umpire erred as well, I don't know, but in this case that sounds like an excuse when, in fact, all the players should have known what was up.

Actually, a third strike and an infield fly are treated in a similar manner. The general rule is that the batter becomes a batter-runner if he hits a fair ball. Perhaps it isn't obvious, but the general rule is that he also becomes a B/R on any 3rd strike not caught. Go back into the history of baseball far enough, and the rule was that he became a B/R on any 3rd strike. In fact, in the the NFHS formulation of the rules, even today the batter becomes a B/R on every 3rd strike, but is out immediately if the pitch is legally caught (or 1st is occupied with less than two out, of course).

Both situations offer the possibility of a double play if the fielder or catcher deliberately misplays, either by letting a batted ball drop untouched, or by not catching the 3rd strike. The rules today cover both situations by making an exception to the general rule: The batter is out if a double play is a likely outcome.

For an infield fly, it is necessary for the umpire to make a declaration, since some judgement is involved in determining if the batted ball is in fact an infield fly, and the correct action by the runners depends on that declaration.

For a dropped third strike, where a double play is possible, no judgement is required. The batter is out on strike 3 whether the ball is caught or not. So the umpire does not need to declare the out on the batter, and both the offense and defense should know that the batter is out. The situation was evident before the pitch, the out is automatic, and the runner's actions should be the same whether the pitch is caught or not.

Yes, I agree at this age(14) they all should know, but sometimes reactions to dropped third strikes is to automatically run.

I think second base thought it was a walk because he didn't try to get back, umpire was tough to hear and never yelled ball- just held up count with his left hand.

I guess its a good lesson learned without costing us the game.
Thanks for the input.

While both the defense and offense should know the situation, players do brainlock. I generally announce the batter is out if he can't go to first, I don't make it a big call but the guys at the plate will certainly know it. If it isn't announced then they are responsible to know on their own.
When I coached or when I watch my son play, I always tell the catcher before the pitch whether he is going to first on a DTS, tagging the plate or eating it.

quote:

Originally posted by 3FingeredGlove:
...The rules today cover both situations by making an exception to the general rule: The batter is out if a double play is a likely outcome.

How can there be an obvious double play on a TSNC? Only thing I a can think of right now is a steal of Home by R3 or a missed suicide squeeze with 2 strikes on the batter

quote:

Originally posted by NavyUmp:

quote:

Originally posted by 3FingeredGlove:
...The rules today cover both situations by making an exception to the general rule: The batter is out if a double play is a likely outcome.

How can there be an obvious double play on a TSNC? Only thing I a can think of right now is a steal of Home by R3 or a missed suicide squeeze with 2 strikes on the batter

I believe 3FG was referring to the OP in which the bases were loaded.

Step on the plate and throw to first. Double play.

quote:

Originally posted by Jimmy03:

quote:

Originally posted by NavyUmp:

quote:

Originally posted by 3FingeredGlove:
...The rules today cover both situations by making an exception to the general rule: The batter is out if a double play is a likely outcome.

How can there be an obvious double play on a TSNC? Only thing I a can think of right now is a steal of Home by R3 or a missed suicide squeeze with 2 strikes on the batter

I believe 3FG was referring to the OP in which the bases were loaded.

Step on the plate and throw to first. Double play.

Why would you need a DP in that sitch; there are two out!

NavyUmp,
I was trying to explain why the rule makes the batter out on a TSNC if 1st is occupied with less than two out. If the batter weren't out in this situation, then R1 would be forced to second. So a catcher could intentionally drop the ball at his feet, throw to second for the force on R1. There would be still plenty of time to get the B/R, with the throw to second taking about 2 seconds, and the relay to first about 1.3 seconds. So if the rule didn't declare the batter out on TSNC with R1, less than 2 outs, a double play would be likely.

This isn't some theory; the original rule was that the batter was "bound to run" if the pitch wasn't caught on the fly or first bounce (no gloves back in the mid 1800's). But catchers would intentionally drop the ball and collect double plays. The rule was changed to stop that.

Same thing for the IFF. Before 1890, popups often led to double plays. The first incarnation of the IFR declared the batter out with only R1 rather than R1 and R2, but that was an over-correction. The batter's only responsibility is to run to 1st, and on most popups he can get there before a relay throw. R1 and R2 of course would both be in a quandry whether to try to advance or retouch. So a double play would be likely with the IFR.

quote:

Originally posted by NavyUmp:

quote:

Originally posted by Jimmy03:

quote:

Originally posted by NavyUmp:

quote:

Originally posted by 3FingeredGlove:
...The rules today cover both situations by making an exception to the general rule: The batter is out if a double play is a likely outcome.

How can there be an obvious double play on a TSNC? Only thing I a can think of right now is a steal of Home by R3 or a missed suicide squeeze with 2 strikes on the batter

I believe 3FG was referring to the OP in which the bases were loaded.

Step on the plate and throw to first. Double play.

Why would you need a DP in that sitch; there are two out!

(sigh)

I cited, for example only, how it can contribute to a DP when, as in the OP, bases were loaded. I will try to more verbose next time and explain further.

And, in the OP, there were no out.