Dropping my elbow...solutions?

Well for one practice throwing at a more overhand slot. And when you throw, ay attention to where your elbow is. You need to nix this habit because injuries will occur ( I am currently on the "DL" because of something similar to this). Keep working on it and it will hopefully fix itself.

quote:

Originally posted by yesisbest:
Hi, does anyone know any way to stop someone from dropping his elbow when he throws? My throw is fine, but right before I'm about to release it, my elbow forms a 90 degree angle (or close to it) from my shoulder to my hand.

This puts tons of stress on the elbow, and can cause major injury.

Does anyone know how to prevent the dropping of the elbow?

Who said this will cause injury?

What is a more appropriate angle?

Just three very important things to check in your throwing motion.

Consider checking:
1. Front foot alignment of the front point of the foot to the target.
2. Front foot plant correctness using the outside half of foot, versus the effects of the heel plant which causes the arm to flatten out and elbow to drop, in relationship to the target.
3. Maintaining the proper (closed) hip-shoulder relationship prior to the throw to the target.

This website will help you to understand the mechanics.


Correct Throwing Motion

AKBaseball20 - I try to focus on keeping my elbow up, but that just cuts down the time before my elbow ultimately lowers. At release, it is at 90 degrees.

redbird5 - "Dropping the elbow" besides commonly being known as a dangerous pitching fault, is not something you'd see Jose Guillen, Roger Clemens, or any great thrower doing. They all release their forearm over their elbow, not drop their elbow.

Ramrod - I'll try those things out. Thanks.

I have noticed that the faster I turn my shoulders, the more I tend to drop my elbow. If that's any indication...

I think the problem is that I release my forearm too late. When I say release, I mean after my forearm becomes parallel to the ground as I'm about to let go of the ball, the forearm should just throw the ball without any elbow movement. You can do it sitting down, to see what I mean.

The point I am messing up on can be seen at the third and fourth illustration: http://www.throwmax.com/www-throwmax-com/images/throwing_steps.jpg. Instead of my forearm just going up, my elbow drops and THEN my forearm releases.

yesisbest
<<< The point I am messing up on can be seen at the third and fourth illustration: http://www.throwmax.com/www-throwmax-com/images/throwing_steps.jpg. Instead of my forearm just going up, my elbow drops and THEN my forearm releases >>>

***********************************************

What you are describing is what we call a "fly-open" problem.

The main reason for this is overthrowing, which usually causes your front elbow to go into rotating in a horizontal plane instead of maintaining a strict vertical plane with the front elbow and glove-hand.

To eliminate this, use what we call the "push-pull technique" with the front arm and hand. Push out with the glove to the tee and pull hard in a downward manner with the glove-hand to your front-side hip. This will eliminate the fly open problem if you maintain the proper step mechanics which I have already discussed.

AS YOU PULL, DO NOT ALLOW THE GLOVE TO GO PAST THE HIP!

The body rotates in the horizontal plane, but the elbows, arms and hands rotate in the vertical plane.

Another drill you can do to eliminate this problem is called the exchange. When your hands are out to the tee keep your glove hand out in front of you and throw the ball right through the glove...you will see that your glove hand will move out of the way automatically.

I really appreciate your help. Two questions...

1) What do you mean "Push out with the glove to the tee"?
2) Could my problem be because of improper arm movement as my shoulders begin to rotate? Like, elbow position and the like...?

quote:

Originally posted by yesisbest:
I really appreciate your help. Two questions...

1) What do you mean "Push out with the glove to the tee"?
2) Could my problem be because of improper arm movement as my shoulders begin to rotate? Like, elbow position and the like...?

************************************************

This is not an uncommon problem.

Push means don't allow the hands to drift open passively, they will not make it to the proper position to throw if the arms, elbows and hands are allowed to drift open. The proper position is critical to maintaining balance, just like a man on a tight-rope. As soon as the body loses its dynamic balance point the throwing form will suffer.

The arms elbows and hands must maintain an inverted plane. In the tee the elbows and hands are completely inverted. It's only at the point that the ball begins the throw that the hands and the arms are not inverted. This is critical to maintaining proper timing of the stages of the hands throughout the movement.

The pull guarantees that the elbow does not open and rotate in the horizontal plane. That is a no-no. And it assures the proper finishing of the upper body throughout the follow-through.

An inverted plane would mean that the lead arm and hand are identical to the back arm and hand, but reversed...right?

Sorry, my pitching terminology isn't that great.

quote:

Originally posted by yesisbest:
...redbird5 - "Dropping the elbow" besides commonly being known as a dangerous pitching fault, is not something you'd see Jose Guillen, Roger Clemens, or any great thrower doing. They all release their forearm over their elbow, not drop their elbow.

You still haven't described dropping your elbow. An arm forming a 90 degrees angle with the shoulder is not dropping the elbow to me.

Look at some clips of actual pitchers. Here is Clemens as posted at pitching-mechanics.org:



Looks like 90 degrees to me.

This is Clemens's release point:

Now imagine Clemens's elbow in front of his shoulder at the same height. If you measured the distance from his shoulder to the ground, and his elbow to the ground, they would be the same. In that photo, the length would be more from his elbow, since it is up high. My elbow forms a 90 degree angle, whereas in his release point, the elbow forms a 180 degree angle (straight line).

I'm sure you just misunderstood, however.

No, I didn't misunderstand. If you look at Clemens' elbow, it only an inch or so above his shoulder. His elbow is ahead of his shoulder (relative to the plate).

You previously mentioned that dropping the elbow is a dangerous pitching fault. I disagree.

The elbow height at release is directly related to the arm slot. For example, it someone was throwing as a submariner, his elbow would be lower.

Redbird

I didn't misunderstand...yesisbest is saying that his 90 degree angle, which is correct prior to the throw, is collapsing so that his elbow is below the shoulder. This usually causes the ball to have a slight horizontal rotation to it...more like a slider. I posted that earlier.

Clemens pitching form is smooth and powerful until the glove hand is allowed to drift past his hip and dangle away from his body. The definition of the glove going past the hip is usually referred to as "flying open".

But if you watch the glove it is tucked in as he throws which is correct, but it is after the throw that he releases it and it drifts. If I was working with a young pitcher and I saw that I would try to work with to get him to keep his glove tucked into the hip through the follow-through. I think it is better for balance and it looks better, more in control at the finish rather than the arm and glove flying in the wind.

Something I find very interesting about The video of Clemens delivery is the pointing forward of his front foot as in the opening of the hips early or in not landing closed!

Anybody else pick up on this?

quote:

Originally posted by redbird5:
No, I didn't misunderstand. If you look at Clemens' elbow, it only an inch or so above his shoulder. His elbow is ahead of his shoulder (relative to the plate).

You previously mentioned that dropping the elbow is a dangerous pitching fault. I disagree.

The elbow height at release is directly related to the arm slot. For example, it someone was throwing as a submariner, his elbow would be lower.

Maybe the height of the elbow was a bad way to put it. The point I'm trying to make is that my elbow is bent at release. Clemens's elbow appears to be totally straight. Imagine standing straight, arms at your sides. Now imagine you wish to slowly punch the ceiling. If you're like me, your elbow will be bent by the time it reaches shoulder height. This is more or less my release point.

yesisbest,

What about the video clip? Clemens' arm looks bent at a 9 0degree angle to me.

quote:

Originally posted by Top_Prospect:
Something I find very interesting about The video of Clemens delivery is the pointing forward of his front foot as in the opening of the hips early or in not landing closed!

Anybody else pick up on this?

***********************************************

This is a difficult one to answer since i'm not absolutely sure what you're gettin at, but since we have no way of visualizing the centerpoint line in relation to his plant foot or his hips at best you are making an assumption that is not obvious.

What I see is that he maintains his dynamic load point (stays behind the ball) throughout his delivery and you can't get much better than that.

Ramrod,

You can see his front side is opening like a gate. He is NOT landing but opening up his hip as he goes out pointing his foot to landing.

So why are we taught to land closed? $#%$#QW!

quote:

Originally posted by Top_Prospect:
Ramrod,

You can see his front side is opening like a gate. He is NOT landing but opening up his hip as he goes out pointing his foot to landing.

So why are we taught to land closed? $#%$#QW!

************************************************

You're seeing something I'm not. He brings his leg and foot down as his hands are preparing to go to the tee...his foot goes to the kick out and he is still closed...then he begins the power stage of the stride and he begins to open his hips...preparing to throw...he starts the power throw and the hips have opened all the way so that his belly button is facing his target...the arm, shoulder and his hand comes through...and he rotates over a closed foot to the target. I don't see him opening his hips early, or him flying open with his front shoulder. Check the load point in relation to the hips and you will see he is not in front of it.

quote:

Originally posted by redbird5:
yesisbest,

What about the video clip? Clemens' arm looks bent at a 9 0degree angle to me.

It is practically impossible to see Clemens's arm from that clip. I took a look at the release point frame (Print Screen), and it's all blurred.

Why, do you think his arm is somehow different in the video than in the pic? All of his release points from images have his arm completely straight. Check these out:





All their arms are straight. Now check out mine:

http://img312.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img08771mn.jpg

And this is from the side, at release point:

http://img113.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img08859sv.jpg

I understand they may be hard to see, but that's the best I can do, and certainly they tell a lot more than words.

Yesisbest:
I have two things that may help you. First is a mindset. Try not to throw with your arm but rather your pitching hand. Sounds simple but the thought process helps alot of players. Try to take the ball and throw it through the mitt with your hand and do not think about the arm. A drill that may also benefit you would be to take a throw down plate and place it at 55' and from the mound go through your motion with good mechanics and try to bounce the ball off of the first plate and over home plate. It sounds simple but if you are dropping your elbow and leading with it then it is very difficult to bounce the ball in. Also, make sure that you are pointing your front shoulder to your target as long as possible, as I believe was pointed out earlier by someone.

Ramrod,

Do we agree that his front foot is pointing straight forward before his foot lands?

Then how can his hips stay closed?

To me it looks like he is opening up as he goes out to landing.

quote:

Originally posted by Top_Prospect:
Ramrod,

Do we agree that his front foot is pointing straight forward before his foot lands?

Then how can his hips stay closed?

To me it looks like he is opening up as he goes out to landing.

Look at video of any top level pitcher and you will see the same thing.

quote:

Originally posted by Top_Prospect:
Ramrod,

Do we agree that his front foot is pointing straight forward before his foot lands?

Then how can his hips stay closed?

To me it looks like he is opening up as he goes out to landing.

************************************************

The importance of the plant foot is not how closed it is to the target, though you do not want the instep to be open at all to the target, but what's very critical is that the foot lands with the weight more on the outside half of the foot, flat, not heel first.

If you watch Clemens he does it perfect, that's the reason he can unload with such power because he maintains such great balance, starting wih the foot plant.

Incidentally let me just say that the proper foot plant can really determine two things about a pitcher...balance which effects how hard, fast he throws, and secondly, how he is able to maintain consistency in his release point.

Yesisbest......

Please make sure you talk to a pitching coach about this issue. Though pretty much everyone who contributes to these threads is very well intentioned, most people are not pitching coaches. Even the pitching coaches are not actually watching you throw, and you need a coach to watch you so that he can give guidance.

The discussion is good, but just be careful about taking the advice from any forum and risking further arm troubles.

quote:

Originally posted by Ramrod:
The importance of the plant foot is not how closed it is to the target, though you do not want the instep to be open at all to the target, but what's very critical is that the foot lands with the weight more on the outside half of the foot, flat, not heel first.

If you watch Clemens he does it perfect, that's the reason he can unload with such power because he maintains such great balance, starting wih the foot plant.

Incidentally let me just say that the proper foot plant can really determine two things about a pitcher...balance which effects how hard, fast he throws, and secondly, how he is able to maintain consistency in his release point.

RR,

What is a proper foot plant? Does the foot plant occur in the same place every pitch or does it vary based on location?

Redbird said:
What is a proper foot plant? Does the foot plant occur in the same place every pitch or does it vary based on location?

***********************************************

The method I taught to my son and others was based upon James Madison University's, Joe Spanky McFarland

http://www.jmusports.com/Team/Coaches/3_2_Bio.asp?TeamID=3

He covers your question in his book "Coaching Pitchers".

Basically his approach is to eliminate any unnecessary movement or inconsistencies in the pitching form. The plant step should be as consistently in the same location with each pitch. He covers this with graphics to make it easy to see what he means.

He recommends that the pitcher set up be with the feet on the outside edges of the rubber. This helps to insure that the hips open fully with each pitch and similarly prevents overstepping beyond the centerline.

The foot plant is similarly covered and he recommends that the foot be slightly closed, and that the foot come down in a controlled manner based upon a smooth step-down (drop) and go, and that it land flat, with the weight slightly to the outside half of the foot.

When my son first started pitching I had him draw a box on the mound with his foot or a stick, which served to be there if he needed to clean his cleats while pitching, and look down after he finished each pitch to check two things. One, the impression left after the pitch to see if he hit with his heel, and secondly to check to see if his cleat impression was closed.

What usually happens if the pitcher doesn't slightly bend his knee on the go stride just before his foot hits, his heel will hit first. Look at Clemens for confirmation of that.

A stiff knee that causes the heel to hit first usually causes the pitcher to roll over his foot and off to the side rather than end up in balance with his body open to the target ready to field his position.

RR,

I know Spanky well. I have spoken with him a few times about pitching.

As for foot plant...I believe Leo Mazzone preaches to adjust the location of the foot plant based on the location of the pitch. Small adjustments but easier and more productive to do it with the feet than with the arm.

Redbird

I was taught the same thing by my pitching coaches as I progressed. Rule of thumb, more closed foot plant with an off speed pitch to assure that speed differential is consistent, more open when throwing hard FB, screwgy or 2 seam-cut.

I taught my son the same thing. He uses finger pressure, seating of the ball deeper in the hand, and finger elevation based upon which side of the plate he's working on.

I also taught him three different thumb locations, but I don't really know if he uses it while he's pitching, since I'm not out there.

We have been working on a slider with a late break.