EARLY COMMITMENTS RAISE CONCERNS - Baseball America Cahill

CaCO3Girl posted:

MidAtlanticDad posted:

joemktg posted:

Devil's advocate: why bother?...

• Let market forces dictate direction
• Caveat emptor
• Who polices? The NCAA? That's an out of control bureaucracy. 
• It's going to make life more difficult for RCs: their recruiting boards will be similar to draft boards where uncertainty rules.
• It's going to shift the advantage to the player, as they will be able to work offers against one another far more easier given the simultaneous start data.
• Recruitment pre-start date goes under the table, and when things go under the table, stupid stuff occurs.

 

Under the current "system," the sooner parents realize that they can relax and evaluate schools on their terms, the better it will be for all.

I think you're saying less regulation, not more, which I agree with. Here's my three point simplification proposal (I'm open to amendments):

1. No age/grade limit on signing NLI.
2. NLI can be dissolved if both parties agree, but scholarship will still be counted against school's 11.7.
3. Every recruit owns their own Contact List. List is customizable by contact method (e.g. phone, text, email, etc). No school can contact recruit unless recruit has added the school to their list. Recruit can remove schools from list at any time.

Have to say...not okay with those.  I think all you need is number one.  If they sign the NLI they are on the hook, and if the 8th grader is no longer playing baseball by his senior year oh well he gets a year of college for free :-)

I've heard too many stories about a kid going to a college that wasn't on the list to think #3 is a good idea. 

Thanks for the feedback, I am amending #3. I was focusing on top level young kids getting unwanted calls. I included #2 in an attempt to penalize the schools that run guys off late in the process. I want to give the recruit the ability to play at another NCAA program in those cases where things didn't work out. The NLI prevents that.

1. No age/grade limit on signing NLI.
2. NLI can be dissolved if both parties agree, but scholarship will still be counted against school's 11.7.
3. Prior to September 1st of junior year, every recruit owns their own Contact List. List is customizable by contact method (e.g. phone, text, email, etc). No school can contact recruit unless recruit has added the school to their list. Recruit can remove schools from list at any time.

The largest glacier in the world will move 1 meter before there is NCAA recruitment reform.

MIDATLANTICDAD,

Good point... I guess Dream School is something I've never understood unless you happen to be a big fan.  Seems like it should be Dream Schools for athletes.

Just me, but I would not want my son to go to a college with hopes that he might play by his junior year.  Not that there is anything wrong with that. Just something I wouldn't want. Not what the college was hoping for either when the young kid committed.  Only understand Dream School if it pertains to academics and most of those colleges are not involved with these early commitments.

Then again, these things are just my opinions.  I've been known to change opinions

PGStaff posted:

MIDATLANTICDAD,

Good point... I guess Dream School is something I've never understood unless you happen to be a big fan.  Seems like it should be Dream Schools for athletes.

Just me, but I would not want my son to go to a college with hopes that he might play by his junior year.  Not that there is anything wrong with that. Just something I wouldn't want. Not what the college was hoping for either when the young kid committed.  Only understand Dream School if it pertains to academics and most of those colleges are not involved with these early commitments.

Then again, these things are just my opinions.  I've been known to change opinions

I wish I had all the answers, but at least this kid and those like him are choosing between multiple excellent options. Dream school for him includes extended family close by, great academics, great weather, and long time successful HC.

Funny, once this tough decision is behind him, I'm betting he faces another one involving the draft. Sounds crazy to some people to say that about a freshman, but I'm sure you've seen it many times.

fenwaysouth posted:

The largest glacier in the world will move 1 meter before there is NCAA recruitment reform.

https://youtu.be/KX5jNnDMfxA

PGStaff posted:

We need to understand that this is simply a product of competition.  We  could see this coming several years ago.

It really doesn't pertain to divisions below DI and happens most often at the higher levels of DI.  In most every case it favors the college rather than the player.

Blaze Jordan is a very unusual player.  I doubt he will end up at Mississippi State or any other college.  He is actually talented enough to play DI baseball right now.  Kind if falls in the category of Bryce Harper and Justin Upton at that age.  He doesn't even have his man strength yet and he is one of the top power hitters in HS baseball.  BTW, he also throws 90 mph from the mound.  I think he is not a good example of committing early, because any college coach in the country would want him.

There are other things to consider, some that actually help even the DI playing field.  For the most part it is the top programs in the country that are recruiting these young kids.  Late to the party are many northern schools that are now getting commitments from talented young kids in the north before they are seen by the power schools.  Hopefully they will be able to keep most of those players. 

I see the beginning stages of a trend where northern schools are closing the gap and becoming more competitive with the warm climate power programs.

Odd thing is, we started doing events for younger (underclass) kids years ago.  Back then there might be Army or Navy, but no SEC, ACC or other power conference coaches in attendance.  The only MLB scout you would see would be if a scout happened to have his kid in the event.  What we did see was about 100 agent/advisers looking for young talent to talk to.  Times have changed and now at those same events we see a hundred or more college coaches looking for the next Blaze Jordan.  I don't blame them, in fact I applaud them for working so hard and being so competitive.

So who is to blame, if anyone?  IMO it is the parents more than anyone else.  If a power house program wants a kid to commit in 8th or 9th grade, what does that tell you?  It should tell you they believe that kid will be someone everyone will want when he is a junior or senior in HS.  If they are wrong about that kid, they will adjust accordingly. If they are right which happens a lot, they got what they wanted.  So if you are the parent of a very talented young player and the top colleges want him.  If he progresses as most do, do you think that same college and others will no longer want him... just because he wasn't ready to commit as a freshman?  Doesn't it make sense that the top colleges want the top players?  If needed they seem to always find a way to make room for a top guy. In a perfect world that player they offer as a freshman is the player they want when he is a senior.  They want him!

By not committing early will you be losing a great opportunity?  In most cases it is the junior that counts in the end.  A great freshman who turns out to be an average junior is not what they want.  When they tell you that they expected you to progress much more, that you will never play at their school and you should look elsewhere, think about that early decision you made.  What about that opportunity you were afraid of losing? They (recruiter) made a mistake projecting your son.  Too bad for you, now start over.  However it should be noted that many of these early commitments end up being very successful for both the college and the player. And yes there are also some kids that end up being devastated, as well.

One problem for the player is that no one knows exactly what the program will look like in 4 years.  The draft, eligibility, transfers, coaching changes, and more.  There is just a lot of uncertainty.  And I guess it should be mentioned that players can also decommit if they want. 

Bottom Line... Good or Bad, It is what it is, I don't think it will change very soon.  They can shorten the recruiting time lines, but that just gives the power schools a bigger advantage.  They simply have more people, a bigger network, helping them find players.  Also a big advantage for programs that are in states loaded with talent.

FWIW, here is my suggestion.  If you have a son that is being recruited heavily at a very young age, in other words he is extremely talented... simply tell every recruiter you are very flattered, but you will not be making any decision or commitment before your junior year.  If you are truly what they want, you will be followed closely before making that decision in a couple years.  They don't forget about the players they want the most.  If things change and they are no longer interested everything ends up the way it should.  Player ends up where he belongs and he will be happier.

Even more important... Do what you want, because that is all that really counts.

 

If I'm correct (and this info comes from my son), player above hit HR's in the 14U, 15U, 16U and 17U WWBA's BEFORE HE STEPPED ON A HIGH SCHOOL CAMPUS.  Also hit a couple HR's in Jupiter, as well as a 504 ft HR in a HR derby.

My favorite line in this "so who is to blame, if anyone. IMO it is tha parents"

yes those damn parents who are the only ones that truly give a damn about the kid....and in most cases are the ones with little money, and are the ones who have never done this before....those rotten sob's are the biggest problems and force colleges to recruit middle school kids....those bastards!! 

It couldn't be the coaches making the money, the schools employing them, the agents waiting to prey on them....or the recruiting services making a living on them....nope the parents because they have a child so talented grown men will sell their own kids to get a piece of.

My son commited over the summer after a rather short but intense process, visiting 7 schools and receiving a few offers over the course before deciding. Given what has happened since In some ways I wish he had commited a year earlier. He’s always been one of the guys willing to outwork the others, but now he’s “that guy that commited to Arkansas” and has stepped up his training and commitment even further. Ours is not a HS league full of D1 kids so he knows there will be attention. Every article written about him will now include that tag line. He’s taken it in the best possible way and understands he’s part of something bigger now and has to represent himself and his future school properly. And he now understands exactly what he needs to do academically to start college on the right foot and has gone from a C+ student to straight As so far this semester. He has benefitted from the focus that his commitment has provided. 

KilroyJ posted:

My son commited over the summer after a rather short but intense process, visiting 7 schools and receiving a few offers over the course before deciding. Given what has happened since In some ways I wish he had commited a year earlier. He’s always been one of the guys willing to outwork the others, but now he’s “that guy that commited to Arkansas” and has stepped up his training and commitment even further. Ours is not a HS league full of D1 kids so he knows there will be attention. Every article written about him will now include that tag line. He’s taken it in the best possible way and understands he’s part of something bigger now and has to represent himself and his future school properly. And he now understands exactly what he needs to do academically to start college on the right foot and has gone from a C+ student to straight As so far this semester. He has benefitted from the focus that his commitment has provided. 

Good story.  While my 2020 son hasn't committed, the attention and process has had a similar effect on grades and drive (workouts, training, etc.).  

KilroyJ posted:

My son commited over the summer after a rather short but intense process, visiting 7 schools and receiving a few offers over the course before deciding. Given what has happened since In some ways I wish he had commited a year earlier. He’s always been one of the guys willing to outwork the others, but now he’s “that guy that commited to Arkansas” and has stepped up his training and commitment even further. Ours is not a HS league full of D1 kids so he knows there will be attention. Every article written about him will now include that tag line. He’s taken it in the best possible way and understands he’s part of something bigger now and has to represent himself and his future school properly. And he now understands exactly what he needs to do academically to start college on the right foot and has gone from a C+ student to straight As so far this semester. He has benefitted from the focus that his commitment has provided. 

As my kid goes to a small school, it's the same. NLI signing is also a big deal. Strangely, he becomes the first D1 baseball player from our school in a while and, as far as I can tell, only about the fourth ever. That's extremely weird considering the school has put that many kids into the majors (none of which went to college). We've had a lot of professional players during that time, as well. It just seems any good player from our school simply goes the draft route.

TPM posted:

Goin_yard posted:

I loved these two quotes:    

"If we have enough time to evaluate freshmen and eighth graders, we have too much time to recruit," Checketts said.

"College baseball coaches could do a lot better job of dictating their schedule, and we could also focus on coaching our own team and developing players at a better rate than we do now if we weren't so concerned with running off every weekend in the fall," Schlossnagle said. "I think we're starting to create a breed of assistant coach that is all about recruiting and not about coaching and developing young people."

Read more at http://www.baseballamerica.com...#73ryolrBhQFBeYqj.99

As a new D1 assistant coach, son has not been home one weekend since he signed his contract. Because he is not as familiar with 20 and 21s, he is usually the one out on the road.  He actually likes watching young talented players and lucky that he lives within a state where there are lots of showcases and tournaments  and there is lots of talent.  

The difficulty is that the NCAA only allows 3 paid coaches to recruit, so planning who is going to do what or headed where is essential for productivity.  It's easy to understand why assistants work hard to become head coaches.

I agree with the quote by Checketts.  I also believe that it is not the coaches that have created the problem. But when you have tournaments and showcases every weekend summer and fall, if you don't go you can lose out. However, in most cases, it's the top programs who have to be the early birds, even though lots of recruits don't often show up, but the thought is, if we don't get him, someone else will.

No harm no foul on the young player committing early to MSU. He is from Mississippi. More than likely he grew up attending games,  his family has alumni.

 

This is a good article and I agree with the author that adopting the Lacrosse model would likely end up developing a bidding war for talent on that Sept 1 date, which could be overwhelming for the student and parents as well. I can see where a longer recruiting window is beneficial to the athlete, but there needs to be a paradigm shift away from labeling a student who decomits from an early commitment as being something less than loyal. 

I am curious, TPM, in who you feel is responsible for such early recruiting. You seem to be giving the coaches a pass here, and I can understand why because once the horse is out of the barn it is tough to get it back in. But you also seem to be saying it is the fault of Showcase and tournament organizers (like Perfect Game) for hosting events pretty much year round.

PGStaff posted:

We need to understand that this is simply a product of competition.  We  could see this coming several years ago.

It really doesn't pertain to divisions below DI and happens most often at the higher levels of DI.  In most every case it favors the college rather than the player.

Blaze Jordan is a very unusual player.  I doubt he will end up at Mississippi State or any other college.  He is actually talented enough to play DI baseball right now.  Kind if falls in the category of Bryce Harper and Justin Upton at that age.  He doesn't even have his man strength yet and he is one of the top power hitters in HS baseball.  BTW, he also throws 90 mph from the mound.  I think he is not a good example of committing early, because any college coach in the country would want him.

There are other things to consider, some that actually help even the DI playing field.  For the most part it is the top programs in the country that are recruiting these young kids.  Late to the party are many northern schools that are now getting commitments from talented young kids in the north before they are seen by the power schools.  Hopefully they will be able to keep most of those players. 

I see the beginning stages of a trend where northern schools are closing the gap and becoming more competitive with the warm climate power programs.

Odd thing is, we started doing events for younger (underclass) kids years ago.  Back then there might be Army or Navy, but no SEC, ACC or other power conference coaches in attendance.  The only MLB scout you would see would be if a scout happened to have his kid in the event.  What we did see was about 100 agent/advisers looking for young talent to talk to.  Times have changed and now at those same events we see a hundred or more college coaches looking for the next Blaze Jordan.  I don't blame them, in fact I applaud them for working so hard and being so competitive.

So who is to blame, if anyone?  IMO it is the parents more than anyone else.  If a power house program wants a kid to commit in 8th or 9th grade, what does that tell you?  It should tell you they believe that kid will be someone everyone will want when he is a junior or senior in HS.  If they are wrong about that kid, they will adjust accordingly. If they are right which happens a lot, they got what they wanted.  So if you are the parent of a very talented young player and the top colleges want him.  If he progresses as most do, do you think that same college and others will no longer want him... just because he wasn't ready to commit as a freshman?  Doesn't it make sense that the top colleges want the top players?  If needed they seem to always find a way to make room for a top guy. In a perfect world that player they offer as a freshman is the player they want when he is a senior.  They want him!

By not committing early will you be losing a great opportunity?  In most cases it is the junior that counts in the end.  A great freshman who turns out to be an average junior is not what they want.  When they tell you that they expected you to progress much more, that you will never play at their school and you should look elsewhere, think about that early decision you made.  What about that opportunity you were afraid of losing? They (recruiter) made a mistake projecting your son.  Too bad for you, now start over.  However it should be noted that many of these early commitments end up being very successful for both the college and the player. And yes there are also some kids that end up being devastated, as well.

One problem for the player is that no one knows exactly what the program will look like in 4 years.  The draft, eligibility, transfers, coaching changes, and more.  There is just a lot of uncertainty.  And I guess it should be mentioned that players can also decommit if they want. 

Bottom Line... Good or Bad, It is what it is, I don't think it will change very soon.  They can shorten the recruiting time lines, but that just gives the power schools a bigger advantage.  They simply have more people, a bigger network, helping them find players.  Also a big advantage for programs that are in states loaded with talent.

FWIW, here is my suggestion.  If you have a son that is being recruited heavily at a very young age, in other words he is extremely talented... simply tell every recruiter you are very flattered, but you will not be making any decision or commitment before your junior year.  If you are truly what they want, you will be followed closely before making that decision in a couple years.  They don't forget about the players they want the most.  If things change and they are no longer interested everything ends up the way it should.  Player ends up where he belongs and he will be happier.

Even more important... Do what you want, because that is all that really counts.

 

If we don’t have year-round baseball, Showcase and tournaments that feeds the (real or perceived) pressure to get to these events to be seen in order to get the commitment, that would alleviate a lot of the problem. In my view, the problem is more about the programs and companies making $$$ off of players and families who seem to be stoking the competitive fire between these schools. Stop year round play and a lot of this goes away, as do a lot of the arm injuries.

Keep in mind, while some schools might gripe about how silly it is. I have yet to see a prospect camp limited to juniors and seniors. Assistant coaches make their money at these camps. Always have always will. I put this more on the parents to be smart where they spend the money and understand that unless their son is a freak the typical timeline of junior or even late senior year is fine. If it's meant to happen it will. Don't change the process, educate the parents.

Chicago643 posted:

PGStaff posted:

We need to understand that this is simply a product of competition.  We  could see this coming several years ago.

It really doesn't pertain to divisions below DI and happens most often at the higher levels of DI.  In most every case it favors the college rather than the player.

Blaze Jordan is a very unusual player.  I doubt he will end up at Mississippi State or any other college.  He is actually talented enough to play DI baseball right now.  Kind if falls in the category of Bryce Harper and Justin Upton at that age.  He doesn't even have his man strength yet and he is one of the top power hitters in HS baseball.  BTW, he also throws 90 mph from the mound.  I think he is not a good example of committing early, because any college coach in the country would want him.

There are other things to consider, some that actually help even the DI playing field.  For the most part it is the top programs in the country that are recruiting these young kids.  Late to the party are many northern schools that are now getting commitments from talented young kids in the north before they are seen by the power schools.  Hopefully they will be able to keep most of those players. 

I see the beginning stages of a trend where northern schools are closing the gap and becoming more competitive with the warm climate power programs.

Odd thing is, we started doing events for younger (underclass) kids years ago.  Back then there might be Army or Navy, but no SEC, ACC or other power conference coaches in attendance.  The only MLB scout you would see would be if a scout happened to have his kid in the event.  What we did see was about 100 agent/advisers looking for young talent to talk to.  Times have changed and now at those same events we see a hundred or more college coaches looking for the next Blaze Jordan.  I don't blame them, in fact I applaud them for working so hard and being so competitive.

So who is to blame, if anyone?  IMO it is the parents more than anyone else.  If a power house program wants a kid to commit in 8th or 9th grade, what does that tell you?  It should tell you they believe that kid will be someone everyone will want when he is a junior or senior in HS.  If they are wrong about that kid, they will adjust accordingly. If they are right which happens a lot, they got what they wanted.  So if you are the parent of a very talented young player and the top colleges want him.  If he progresses as most do, do you think that same college and others will no longer want him... just because he wasn't ready to commit as a freshman?  Doesn't it make sense that the top colleges want the top players?  If needed they seem to always find a way to make room for a top guy. In a perfect world that player they offer as a freshman is the player they want when he is a senior.  They want him!

By not committing early will you be losing a great opportunity?  In most cases it is the junior that counts in the end.  A great freshman who turns out to be an average junior is not what they want.  When they tell you that they expected you to progress much more, that you will never play at their school and you should look elsewhere, think about that early decision you made.  What about that opportunity you were afraid of losing? They (recruiter) made a mistake projecting your son.  Too bad for you, now start over.  However it should be noted that many of these early commitments end up being very successful for both the college and the player. And yes there are also some kids that end up being devastated, as well.

One problem for the player is that no one knows exactly what the program will look like in 4 years.  The draft, eligibility, transfers, coaching changes, and more.  There is just a lot of uncertainty.  And I guess it should be mentioned that players can also decommit if they want. 

Bottom Line... Good or Bad, It is what it is, I don't think it will change very soon.  They can shorten the recruiting time lines, but that just gives the power schools a bigger advantage.  They simply have more people, a bigger network, helping them find players.  Also a big advantage for programs that are in states loaded with talent.

FWIW, here is my suggestion.  If you have a son that is being recruited heavily at a very young age, in other words he is extremely talented... simply tell every recruiter you are very flattered, but you will not be making any decision or commitment before your junior year.  If you are truly what they want, you will be followed closely before making that decision in a couple years.  They don't forget about the players they want the most.  If things change and they are no longer interested everything ends up the way it should.  Player ends up where he belongs and he will be happier.

Even more important... Do what you want, because that is all that really counts.

 

If we don’t have year-round baseball, Showcase and tournaments that feeds the (real or perceived) pressure to get to these events to be seen in order to get the commitment, that would alleviate a lot of the problem. In my view, the problem is more about the programs and companies making $$$ off of players and families who seem to be stoking the competitive fire between these schools. Stop year round play and a lot of this goes away, as do a lot of the arm injuries.

I don't think we have year-round showcases and the like. I wish we did, so a kid could manage when to take off. For example, the last showcases for D1 were Nov. 4th & 5th, and now there are no more until . . . May? June?

My son took four months off from pitching (mid-July to this Saturday, Nov. 11th, when he'll throw an inning and start building up from there), as did the rest of his high school staff, because their goal is to be ready to go when the season starts in February. It would be nice if there were showcases in January . . . the current structure puts kids in warm-weather states (where the HS season starts in February) in a difficult spot (e.g., by shutting down in Aug-Sept-Oct they miss a lot of recruiting events; and they can't shut down Nov-Dec-Jan because if they do they won't be ready when the season starts). It would be much more flexible if there were events through January at least. That way, the kids in cold weather states could shut down in Nov-Dec-Jan, and the kids in warm weather states could shut down Aug-Sept-Oct.

2019Dad posted:

Chicago643 posted:

PGStaff posted:

We need to understand that this is simply a product of competition.  We  could see this coming several years ago.

It really doesn't pertain to divisions below DI and happens most often at the higher levels of DI.  In most every case it favors the college rather than the player.

Blaze Jordan is a very unusual player.  I doubt he will end up at Mississippi State or any other college.  He is actually talented enough to play DI baseball right now.  Kind if falls in the category of Bryce Harper and Justin Upton at that age.  He doesn't even have his man strength yet and he is one of the top power hitters in HS baseball.  BTW, he also throws 90 mph from the mound.  I think he is not a good example of committing early, because any college coach in the country would want him.

There are other things to consider, some that actually help even the DI playing field.  For the most part it is the top programs in the country that are recruiting these young kids.  Late to the party are many northern schools that are now getting commitments from talented young kids in the north before they are seen by the power schools.  Hopefully they will be able to keep most of those players. 

I see the beginning stages of a trend where northern schools are closing the gap and becoming more competitive with the warm climate power programs.

Odd thing is, we started doing events for younger (underclass) kids years ago.  Back then there might be Army or Navy, but no SEC, ACC or other power conference coaches in attendance.  The only MLB scout you would see would be if a scout happened to have his kid in the event.  What we did see was about 100 agent/advisers looking for young talent to talk to.  Times have changed and now at those same events we see a hundred or more college coaches looking for the next Blaze Jordan.  I don't blame them, in fact I applaud them for working so hard and being so competitive.

So who is to blame, if anyone?  IMO it is the parents more than anyone else.  If a power house program wants a kid to commit in 8th or 9th grade, what does that tell you?  It should tell you they believe that kid will be someone everyone will want when he is a junior or senior in HS.  If they are wrong about that kid, they will adjust accordingly. If they are right which happens a lot, they got what they wanted.  So if you are the parent of a very talented young player and the top colleges want him.  If he progresses as most do, do you think that same college and others will no longer want him... just because he wasn't ready to commit as a freshman?  Doesn't it make sense that the top colleges want the top players?  If needed they seem to always find a way to make room for a top guy. In a perfect world that player they offer as a freshman is the player they want when he is a senior.  They want him!

By not committing early will you be losing a great opportunity?  In most cases it is the junior that counts in the end.  A great freshman who turns out to be an average junior is not what they want.  When they tell you that they expected you to progress much more, that you will never play at their school and you should look elsewhere, think about that early decision you made.  What about that opportunity you were afraid of losing? They (recruiter) made a mistake projecting your son.  Too bad for you, now start over.  However it should be noted that many of these early commitments end up being very successful for both the college and the player. And yes there are also some kids that end up being devastated, as well.

One problem for the player is that no one knows exactly what the program will look like in 4 years.  The draft, eligibility, transfers, coaching changes, and more.  There is just a lot of uncertainty.  And I guess it should be mentioned that players can also decommit if they want. 

Bottom Line... Good or Bad, It is what it is, I don't think it will change very soon.  They can shorten the recruiting time lines, but that just gives the power schools a bigger advantage.  They simply have more people, a bigger network, helping them find players.  Also a big advantage for programs that are in states loaded with talent.

FWIW, here is my suggestion.  If you have a son that is being recruited heavily at a very young age, in other words he is extremely talented... simply tell every recruiter you are very flattered, but you will not be making any decision or commitment before your junior year.  If you are truly what they want, you will be followed closely before making that decision in a couple years.  They don't forget about the players they want the most.  If things change and they are no longer interested everything ends up the way it should.  Player ends up where he belongs and he will be happier.

Even more important... Do what you want, because that is all that really counts.

 

If we don’t have year-round baseball, Showcase and tournaments that feeds the (real or perceived) pressure to get to these events to be seen in order to get the commitment, that would alleviate a lot of the problem. In my view, the problem is more about the programs and companies making $$$ off of players and families who seem to be stoking the competitive fire between these schools. Stop year round play and a lot of this goes away, as do a lot of the arm injuries.

I don't think we have year-round showcases and the like. I wish we did, so a kid could manage when to take off. For example, the last showcases for D1 were Nov. 4th & 5th, and now there are no more until . . . May? June?

My son took four months off from pitching (mid-July to this Saturday, Nov. 11th, when he'll throw an inning and start building up from there), as did the rest of his high school staff, because their goal is to be ready to go when the season starts in February. It would be nice if there were showcases in January . . . the current structure puts kids in warm-weather states (where the HS season starts in February) in a difficult spot (e.g., by shutting down in Aug-Sept-Oct they miss a lot of recruiting events; and they can't shut down Nov-Dec-Jan because if they do they won't be ready when the season starts). It would be much more flexible if there were events through January at least. That way, the kids in cold weather states could shut down in Nov-Dec-Jan, and the kids in warm weather states could shut down Aug-Sept-Oct.

Don't agree at all. In my experience the fear of year 'round pitching is unfounded. Yes, the schedule makes it possible, but I don't see a lot of it actually happening. For position players, it's a different story. If there are pitchers doing so, it's on them and their parents. Just because tournaments are available 12 months/year doesn't mean they are forced or even encouraged to attend them.

Now, what year around scheduling does provide is the ability for a pitcher to schedule around his own life. For example, for the kid serious about moving on to the next level, it also allows him to choose when he will shut down and allows him the ability to play other sports without losing valuable exposure. The best time period to shut down isn't always the best for every player.

roothog66 posted:

2019Dad posted:

Chicago643 posted:

PGStaff posted:

We need to understand that this is simply a product of competition.  We  could see this coming several years ago.

It really doesn't pertain to divisions below DI and happens most often at the higher levels of DI.  In most every case it favors the college rather than the player.

Blaze Jordan is a very unusual player.  I doubt he will end up at Mississippi State or any other college.  He is actually talented enough to play DI baseball right now.  Kind if falls in the category of Bryce Harper and Justin Upton at that age.  He doesn't even have his man strength yet and he is one of the top power hitters in HS baseball.  BTW, he also throws 90 mph from the mound.  I think he is not a good example of committing early, because any college coach in the country would want him.

There are other things to consider, some that actually help even the DI playing field.  For the most part it is the top programs in the country that are recruiting these young kids.  Late to the party are many northern schools that are now getting commitments from talented young kids in the north before they are seen by the power schools.  Hopefully they will be able to keep most of those players. 

I see the beginning stages of a trend where northern schools are closing the gap and becoming more competitive with the warm climate power programs.

Odd thing is, we started doing events for younger (underclass) kids years ago.  Back then there might be Army or Navy, but no SEC, ACC or other power conference coaches in attendance.  The only MLB scout you would see would be if a scout happened to have his kid in the event.  What we did see was about 100 agent/advisers looking for young talent to talk to.  Times have changed and now at those same events we see a hundred or more college coaches looking for the next Blaze Jordan.  I don't blame them, in fact I applaud them for working so hard and being so competitive.

So who is to blame, if anyone?  IMO it is the parents more than anyone else.  If a power house program wants a kid to commit in 8th or 9th grade, what does that tell you?  It should tell you they believe that kid will be someone everyone will want when he is a junior or senior in HS.  If they are wrong about that kid, they will adjust accordingly. If they are right which happens a lot, they got what they wanted.  So if you are the parent of a very talented young player and the top colleges want him.  If he progresses as most do, do you think that same college and others will no longer want him... just because he wasn't ready to commit as a freshman?  Doesn't it make sense that the top colleges want the top players?  If needed they seem to always find a way to make room for a top guy. In a perfect world that player they offer as a freshman is the player they want when he is a senior.  They want him!

By not committing early will you be losing a great opportunity?  In most cases it is the junior that counts in the end.  A great freshman who turns out to be an average junior is not what they want.  When they tell you that they expected you to progress much more, that you will never play at their school and you should look elsewhere, think about that early decision you made.  What about that opportunity you were afraid of losing? They (recruiter) made a mistake projecting your son.  Too bad for you, now start over.  However it should be noted that many of these early commitments end up being very successful for both the college and the player. And yes there are also some kids that end up being devastated, as well.

One problem for the player is that no one knows exactly what the program will look like in 4 years.  The draft, eligibility, transfers, coaching changes, and more.  There is just a lot of uncertainty.  And I guess it should be mentioned that players can also decommit if they want. 

Bottom Line... Good or Bad, It is what it is, I don't think it will change very soon.  They can shorten the recruiting time lines, but that just gives the power schools a bigger advantage.  They simply have more people, a bigger network, helping them find players.  Also a big advantage for programs that are in states loaded with talent.

FWIW, here is my suggestion.  If you have a son that is being recruited heavily at a very young age, in other words he is extremely talented... simply tell every recruiter you are very flattered, but you will not be making any decision or commitment before your junior year.  If you are truly what they want, you will be followed closely before making that decision in a couple years.  They don't forget about the players they want the most.  If things change and they are no longer interested everything ends up the way it should.  Player ends up where he belongs and he will be happier.

Even more important... Do what you want, because that is all that really counts.

 

If we don’t have year-round baseball, Showcase and tournaments that feeds the (real or perceived) pressure to get to these events to be seen in order to get the commitment, that would alleviate a lot of the problem. In my view, the problem is more about the programs and companies making $$$ off of players and families who seem to be stoking the competitive fire between these schools. Stop year round play and a lot of this goes away, as do a lot of the arm injuries.

I don't think we have year-round showcases and the like. I wish we did, so a kid could manage when to take off. For example, the last showcases for D1 were Nov. 4th & 5th, and now there are no more until . . . May? June?

My son took four months off from pitching (mid-July to this Saturday, Nov. 11th, when he'll throw an inning and start building up from there), as did the rest of his high school staff, because their goal is to be ready to go when the season starts in February. It would be nice if there were showcases in January . . . the current structure puts kids in warm-weather states (where the HS season starts in February) in a difficult spot (e.g., by shutting down in Aug-Sept-Oct they miss a lot of recruiting events; and they can't shut down Nov-Dec-Jan because if they do they won't be ready when the season starts). It would be much more flexible if there were events through January at least. That way, the kids in cold weather states could shut down in Nov-Dec-Jan, and the kids in warm weather states could shut down Aug-Sept-Oct.

Don't agree at all. In my experience the fear of year 'round pitching is unfounded. Yes, the schedule makes it possible, but I don't see a lot of it actually happening. For position players, it's a different story. If there are pitchers doing so, it's on them and their parents. Just because tournaments are available 12 months/year doesn't mean they are forced or even encouraged to attend them.

Now, what year around scheduling does provide is the ability for a pitcher to schedule around his own life. For example, for the kid serious about moving on to the next level, it also allows him to choose when he will shut down and allows him the ability to play other sports without losing valuable exposure. The best time period to shut down isn't always the best for every player.

Don't agree that year-round is the problem? Or don't agree with my suggestion that it would be better if there were more showcases -- or, rather, showcases over a longer time period (through January) -- so that kids could better choose when to shut down?

2019Dad posted:

I don't think we have year-round showcases and the like. I wish we did, so a kid could manage when to take off. For example, the last showcases for D1 were Nov. 4th & 5th, and now there are no more until . . . May? June?

My son took four months off from pitching (mid-July to this Saturday, Nov. 11th, when he'll throw an inning and start building up from there), as did the rest of his high school staff, because their goal is to be ready to go when the season starts in February. It would be nice if there were showcases in January . . . the current structure puts kids in warm-weather states (where the HS season starts in February) in a difficult spot (e.g., by shutting down in Aug-Sept-Oct they miss a lot of recruiting events; and they can't shut down Nov-Dec-Jan because if they do they won't be ready when the season starts). It would be much more flexible if there were events through January at least. That way, the kids in cold weather states could shut down in Nov-Dec-Jan, and the kids in warm weather states could shut down Aug-Sept-Oct.

I'm in GA, my kid shuts down October-Mid December, then he starts easing back in.  Due to growth and off season training he's increased his velo at least 5mph after every shut down.  HS tryouts are 1/15-1/19, he should be ready in plenty of time. 

Shutting down Mid July to early November would not have been good for him, there are a lot of "important" fall events.  Since Fall is when the college coaches can be out and about looking at kids this seems like a poor time choice for that to be your shut down period.

CaCO3Girl posted:

2019Dad posted:

I don't think we have year-round showcases and the like. I wish we did, so a kid could manage when to take off. For example, the last showcases for D1 were Nov. 4th & 5th, and now there are no more until . . . May? June?

My son took four months off from pitching (mid-July to this Saturday, Nov. 11th, when he'll throw an inning and start building up from there), as did the rest of his high school staff, because their goal is to be ready to go when the season starts in February. It would be nice if there were showcases in January . . . the current structure puts kids in warm-weather states (where the HS season starts in February) in a difficult spot (e.g., by shutting down in Aug-Sept-Oct they miss a lot of recruiting events; and they can't shut down Nov-Dec-Jan because if they do they won't be ready when the season starts). It would be much more flexible if there were events through January at least. That way, the kids in cold weather states could shut down in Nov-Dec-Jan, and the kids in warm weather states could shut down Aug-Sept-Oct.

I'm in GA, my kid shuts down October-Mid December, then he starts easing back in.  Due to growth and off season training he's increased his velo at least 5mph after every shut down.  HS tryouts are 1/15-1/19, he should be ready in plenty of time. 

Shutting down Mid July to early November would not have been good for him, there are a lot of "important" fall events.  Since Fall is when the college coaches can be out and about looking at kids this seems like a poor time choice for that to be your shut down period.

Ahh, except for the fact that he doesn't have HS tryouts in mi-January. His HS program is an 11-month program, with practices 3X/week and lifting 3X/week in Sept - Dec., going to practices 5X/week in January. If he tried to take October - mid December off he would be cut from his HS team. That also might be a poor choice.

And to clarify, he was shut down from throwing for about 6 weeks. Then he did a 6 week throwing program (no pitching) with his HS team. For the last couple weeks he's been throwing bullpens. He'll start pitching this weekend, starting with an inning and he'll build up from there. And he was still able to do some important fall events as a position player . . .

My point is I think the same as Root's: "The best time period to shut down isn't always the best for every player."

2019Dad posted:

CaCO3Girl posted:

2019Dad posted:

I don't think we have year-round showcases and the like. I wish we did, so a kid could manage when to take off. For example, the last showcases for D1 were Nov. 4th & 5th, and now there are no more until . . . May? June?

My son took four months off from pitching (mid-July to this Saturday, Nov. 11th, when he'll throw an inning and start building up from there), as did the rest of his high school staff, because their goal is to be ready to go when the season starts in February. It would be nice if there were showcases in January . . . the current structure puts kids in warm-weather states (where the HS season starts in February) in a difficult spot (e.g., by shutting down in Aug-Sept-Oct they miss a lot of recruiting events; and they can't shut down Nov-Dec-Jan because if they do they won't be ready when the season starts). It would be much more flexible if there were events through January at least. That way, the kids in cold weather states could shut down in Nov-Dec-Jan, and the kids in warm weather states could shut down Aug-Sept-Oct.

I'm in GA, my kid shuts down October-Mid December, then he starts easing back in.  Due to growth and off season training he's increased his velo at least 5mph after every shut down.  HS tryouts are 1/15-1/19, he should be ready in plenty of time. 

Shutting down Mid July to early November would not have been good for him, there are a lot of "important" fall events.  Since Fall is when the college coaches can be out and about looking at kids this seems like a poor time choice for that to be your shut down period.

Ahh, except for the fact that he doesn't have HS tryouts in mi-January. His HS program is an 11-month program, with practices 3X/week and lifting 3X/week in Sept - Dec., going to practices 5X/week in January. If he tried to take October - mid December off he would be cut from his HS team. That also might be a poor choice.

And to clarify, he was shut down from throwing for about 6 weeks. Then he did a 6 week throwing program (no pitching) with his HS team. For the last couple weeks he's been throwing bullpens. He'll start pitching this weekend, starting with an inning and he'll build up from there. And he was still able to do some important fall events as a position player . . .

My point is I think the same as Root's: "The best time period to shut down isn't always the best for every player."

OH MY!  That really is year round baseball! 

We do:

Mid January - May = High School

May-August = Travel Ball

New team forms in August

September to Oct 1 = Fall Travel Ball.

Shutdown

We have some position players that go to Florida for a PG showcase over Christmas Break, so I know there is one then.

OLD_SCHOOL,

I get your point.  There is plenty of blame to go around.  When I said the biggest problem is the parents, I should have said that lack of information is the biggest problem.  When it comes to a 14 year old making a decision it always includes the parents.  They can say yes or no.  However if they don't understand how things work, they depend on those they get information from.  Whether that is a recruiter, an instructor, an agent, or some other service, they don't always get all the facts.  Every parent wants to do the right thing and nobody cares about their children more than parents.  Problem is, they are in control or should be and many are making that decision without enough information.

That said, committing early for good reason can be a good thing.  And it's not the end of the world if a mistake was made.  However, it's most devastating when the early commit finds out late, like just before LOI signing day, that he is no longer wanted.  We have seen that happen a lot.