Earned Run?

I don't think so but I'm not a scoring expert, there are others here that are. The thing I always hear is reconstruct the inning without the error and that tells you the earned/unearned runs. Using that thought, I would think the second was unearned.

MS Taylor and I see it the same way but like him I'm no scoring expert either.

With error free play Batter #1 would be the first out.

Batter #2 grounds out with what would be out #2. (we call it a sac bunt because it purposely advanced batter #1 but it is still a ground-out).

Batter #3 srikes out for what would be out #3.

NO earned runs can score in that inning. With error free play it would have been three up --- three down.
Fungo

If I re-work the inning without the error then there is no sac bunt and can I really say that batter #2 would have been an out? If the error is not made there is a different approach to the game by the batter. He may or may not have gotten on base via an errorless means.

No error means there is 1 out when batter 2 comes to the plate. I can't really assume a hit, walk, HBP, out (whatever). I know that batter #3 is an out but without the error is he the 2nd or 3rd out?

I'm thinking that because re-working the inning does not answer the question of batter # 2 being out or safely on base then I need to assume no out for batter #2 and then the 2nd run is indeed earned.

Bring on any thoughts - I've been doing this for quite a while but just haven't run into this situation.
Thanks!

quote:

If the error is not made there is a different approach to the game by the batter. He may or may not have gotten on base via an errorless means.

The odds of the batter getting a hit are less than the odds of him sacrificing the runner to second base. That's why he was asked to sac bunt. Scorekeepers cannot assume a hit. We have to credit the batter for exactly what he did. In this case the ball was hit weakly back to the infield and he was thrown out at first. Because of the error by the defense on the preceding play batter #2 was rewarded for advancing the runner and his AB was erased. While we discuss the merits of an earned vs. unearned runs the coach executed as he should have with the sac bunt and eked out 2 runs. He knows the score reflects TOTAL RUNS not whether they were earned or unearned.
Sorry I got off on a tangent but the correct answer is: NO earned runs. You can break my big yellow pencil if I'm wrong.
Fungo

OK. I see your point and am going with both runs being unearned. Thanks very much for the feedback!

jfsbndr,
Trust me I have been wrong before. Lots of times!
Fungo

PS: I buy lots of yellow pencils too.

Very interesting!!

It all really boils down to one thing. What, as a scorekeeper, do you do with Runner #2 when the inning is re-constructed?

I don't believe that assuming he would have gotten a hit could ever be an option. Absent that, I say go with what actually happened -- he grounded out.

No earned runs.

But again -- VERY INTERESTING! And that's what I love about baseball. You can watch it for 20 years -- and then still see something you've never seen before.

RPD - when I first started to review this my thought was that when the inning gets reconstructed you can't assume an out or an ability to reach base via a walk, interference, etc. Therein was the problem. However with the help of the Fungo and MS Taylor I started thinking that reconstruction with possibilities would cause all sorts of problems scoring in general..

For example, if (in this case) batter 2 does get a hit, would it change the at bat outcomes af all else that followed? This was too much to ponder.

In the end I think you guys all made the right call. A Sacrafice is an out and should be reconstructed as such in a case like this.

Thanks for your feedback. This turned out to be a fun topic.

Jeff

jfsbndr,
Maybe a comparison of a sac fly would help in the understanding of why a sac bunt is an out when reconstructing an inning. A sac fly is an out like the sac bunt it just requires a runner at third base with less than two outs (it makes no difference how that runner got there). If you try to look at a sac bunt as anything other than an out (while reconstructing an "errorless" inning) you would have to consider a sac fly also if the same scenario included a sac fly. The possibilities are too numerous to consider so a scorekeeper has to look at actual results instead of "possible" results. Scorekeeping is a strange animal. In many instances the scorekeeper's opinion factors in heavily in the way a game is scored. In other instances the rules spell out exactly how the game is scored and the scorekeeper's opinion is forbidden. In this case the scorekeeper used his/her OPINION in recording an error when the first batter reached base. (Some scorekeepers might have called it a base hit). The scorekeeper also used his/her OPINION on recording a sac bunt (some scorekeeper might have called it a ground out with no sac bunt being awarded to the hitter). The third batter struck out (no opinion allowed there). In reconstructing the inning (without errors) to determine earned runs the scorekeeper is allowed to have and opinion as to where a runner (not batter) would have advanced but the rules also state that his/her opinion must give any benefit of doubt to the pitcher.
Fungo

quote:

Originally posted by jfsbndr:
Batter #1 ROE. Eventually scores. That run I know is unearned.

In the same inning, next batter, Batter #1 was advanced to 2b by a sac bunt. Sac bunt was out #1.

Next batter k's for out #2.

Next 3 batters all hit singles. As a result, two runs score - Batter #1 (which I know is unearned) and batter#4.

Question - is the 2nd run of the inning earned or not?

You guys are doin’ a pretty good job, but I honestly think you’re getting much more involved in the rules than is necessary. Remember what the object here is. You’re trying to determine which runs a P should be held accountable for, nothing more.

The rule doesn’t say to be concerned with how or why an out was made, but rather that there was an out, so whether or not it was a sac or the greatest play ever made makes absolutely no difference.

If you weren’t at the game and could only see the scoresheet, all you’d see is the 1st batter ROE’d. As was noted, any run he’d score before being put out would be a UER.

Next you’d see the 2nd batter out 1-3, 5-3, 3-4, 3-1, or whatever. Whether or not it was an AB or not is only pertinent to the batter’s number of official at bats, not to whether or not a run was earned or not. That’s out #1 in reality, but our #2 as far as ER’s go.

As soon as the next batter makes the out, as far as ER’s go for that pitcher, there can be none.

However, if after the K, another pitcher is brought in and gives up the 2 runs, they would be charged as earned to the 2nd pitcher, and all unearned to the team.

quote:

However, if after the K, another pitcher is brought in and gives up the 2 runs, they would be charged as earned to the 2nd pitcher, and all unearned to the team.

I know we're guilty of making this overly complicated but would you quote the rule that states the runners which were left on base would be charged as earned runs to the relief pitcher? I can't find it.
Thanks,
Fungo

I think the relevant rule is 10.16(i). Recapping the scenario that I think we are now discussing: Pitcher 1 has one batter reach on an error, and then gets two outs. Pitcher 2 enters the game and gives up 3 singles. B1 and B4 end up scoring. My reading of the rule (actually the examples--the rule is very poorly phrased) says that P1 is charged with one unearned run, and P2 is charged with one earned run. The relief pitcher doesn't get "credit" for the error commited while he wasn't pitching. The team is charged with two unearned runs.

Rule 10.16(i) When pitchers are changed during an inning, the relief pitcher shall not have the benefit of previous chances for outs not accepted in determining earned runs. Comment: It is the intent of Rule 10.16(i) to charge a relief pitcher with earned runs for which such relief pitcher is solely responsible. In some instances, runs charged as earned against the relief pitcher can be charged as unearned against the team. For example: ......"

The examples are too long to post here.

quote:

Originally posted by Fungo:

quote:

However, if after the K, another pitcher is brought in and gives up the 2 runs, they would be charged as earned to the 2nd pitcher, and all unearned to the team.

I know we're guilty of making this overly complicated but would you quote the rule that states the runners which were left on base would be charged as earned runs to the relief pitcher? I can't find it.
Thanks,
Fungo

Before I do that, I have to admit to something. I normally score for HS games now, and tend more often than not to use OBR rather than NFHS rules. It wrong and I know it, and for sure I don’t encourage anyone else to do it, but the truth is, I hate the NFHS book because its so different than OBR, and those folks take way to long to update the book.

OK, now that that’s off my chest, compare the following which comes from OBR, with what you find in the NFHS rules, Rule 9-6-3. To me the two things aren’t even close, and prolly why you couldn't find it.

What you’re looking for is 10.16(i). I’ll color it for you.

10.16 Earned Runs And Runs Allowed
An earned run is a run for which a pitcher is held accountable. In determining earned runs, the official scorer shall reconstruct the inning without the errors (which exclude catcher's interference) and passed balls, giving the benefit of the doubt always to the pitcher in determining which bases would have been reached by runners had there been errorless play. For the purpose of determining earned runs, an intentional base on balls, regardless of the circumstances, shall be construed in exactly the same manner as any other base on balls.
(a) The official scorer shall charge an earned run against a pitcher every time a runner reaches home base by the aid of safe hits, sacrifice bunts, a sacrifice fly, stolen bases, putouts, fielder's choices, bases on balls, hit batters, balks or wild pitches (including a wild pitch on third strike that permits a batter to reach first base) before fielding chances have been offered to put out the offensive team. For the purpose of this rule, a defensive interference penalty shall be construed as a fielding chance. A wild pitch is solely the pitcher's fault and shall contribute to an earned run just as a base on balls or a balk.
Rule 10.16(a) Comment: The following are examples of earned runs charged to a pitcher:
(1) Peter pitches and retires Abel and Baker, the first two batters of an inning. Charlie reaches first base on an error charged to a fielder. Daniel hits a home run. Edward hits a home run. Peter retires Frank to end the inning. Three runs have scored, but no earned runs are charged to Peter, because Charlie should have been the third out of the inning, as reconstructed without the error.
(2) Peter pitches and retires Abel. Baker hits a triple. While pitching to Charlie, Peter throws a wild pitch, allowing Baker to score. Peter retires Daniel and Edward. One run has scored, charged as an earned run to Peter, because the wild pitch contributes to an earned run.
In an inning in which a batter-runner reaches first base on a catcher’s interference, such batter-runner shall not count as an earned run should he subsequently score. The official scorer shall not assume, however, that such batter would have made an out absent the catcher’s interference (unlike, for example, situations in which a batter-runner reaches first base safely because of a fielder’s misplay of a ball for an error). Because such batter never had a chance to complete his time at bat, it is unknown how such batter would have fared absent the catcher’s interference. Compare the following examples:
(3) With two out, Abel reaches first on an error by the shortstop in misplaying a ground ball. Baker hits a home run. Charlie strikes out. Two runs have scored, but none is earned, because Abel’s at-bat should have been the third out of the inning, as reconstructed without the error.
(4) With two out, Abel reaches first on a catcher’s interference. Baker hits a home run. Charlie strikes out. Two runs have scored, but one (Baker’s) is earned, because the official scorer cannot assume that Abel would have made an out to end the inning, absent the catcher’s interference.
(b) No run shall be earned when scored by a runner who reaches first base
(1) on a hit or otherwise after his time at bat is prolonged by a muffed foul fly;
(2) because of interference or obstruction; or
(3) because of any fielding error.
(c) No run shall be earned when scored by a runner whose presence on the bases is prolonged by an error, if such runner would have been put out by errorless play.
(d) No run shall be earned when the scoring runner's advance has been aided by an error, a passed ball or defensive interference or obstruction, if in the official scorer’s judgment the run would not have scored without the aid of such misplay.
(e) An error by a pitcher is treated exactly the same as an error by any other fielder in computing earned runs.
(f) Whenever a fielding error occurs, the pitcher shall be given the benefit of the doubt in determining to which bases any runners would have advanced had the fielding of the defensive team been errorless.
(g) When pitchers are changed during an inning, the official scorer shall not charge the relief pitcher with any run (earned or unearned) scored by a runner who was on base at the time such relief pitcher entered the game, nor for runs scored by any runner who reaches base on a fielder's choice that puts out a runner left on base by any preceding pitcher.
Rule 10.16(g) Comment: It is the intent of Rule 10.16(g) to charge each pitcher with the number of runners he put on base, rather than with the individual runners. When a pitcher puts runners on base and is relieved, such pitcher shall be charged with all runs subsequently scored up to and including the number of runners such pitcher left on base when such pitcher left the game, unless such runners are put out without action by the batter (i.e., caught stealing, picked off base or called out for interference when a batter-runner does not reach first base on the play). For example:
(1) Peter is pitching. Abel reaches first base on a base on balls. Roger relieves Peter. Baker grounds out, advancing Abel to second base. Charlie flies out. Daniel singles, scoring Abel. Abel’s run is charged to Peter
(2) Peter is pitching. Abel reaches first base on a base on balls. Roger relieves Peter. Baker forces Abel at second bases. Charlie grounds out, advancing Baker to second base. Daniel singles, scoring Baker. Baker’s run is charged to Peter.
(3) Peter is pitching. Abel reaches first base on a base on balls. Roger relieves Peter. Baker singles, advancing Abel to third base. Charlie grounds to short, with Abel out at home plate and Baker advancing to second base. Daniel flies out. Edward singles, scoring Baker. Baker’s run is charged to Peter.
(4) Peter is pitching. Abel reaches first base on a base on balls. Roger relieves Peter. Baker reaches on a base on balls. Charlie flies out. Abel is picked off second base. Daniel doubles, scoring Baker from first base. Baker’s run is charged to Roger.
(5) Peter is pitching. Abel reaches first base on a base on balls. Roger relieves Peter. Baker reaches first base on a base on balls. Sierra relieves Roger. Charlie forces Abel at third base. Daniel forces Baker at third base. Edward hits a home run, scoring three runs. The official scorer shall charge one run to Peter, one run to Roger and one run to Sierra.
(6) Peter is pitching. Abel reaches first base on a base on balls. Roger relieves Peter. Baker reaches first base on a base on balls. Charlie singles, filling the bases. Daniel forces Abel at home plate. Edward singles, scoring Baker and Charlie. The official scorer shall charge one run to Peter and one run to Roger.
(7) Peter is pitching. Abel reaches first base on a base on balls. Roger relieves Peter. Baker singles, but Abel is out trying to reach third base and Baker advances to second base on the throw. Charlie singles, scoring Baker. Baker’s run is charged to Roger.
(h) A relief pitcher shall not be held accountable when the first batter to whom he pitches reaches first base on four called balls if such batter has a decided advantage in the ball and strike count when pitchers are changed.
(1) If, when pitchers are changed, the count is
2 balls, no strike,
2 balls, 1 strike,
3 balls, no strike,
3 balls, 1 strike,
3 balls, 2 strikes,
and the batter gets a base on balls, the official scorer shall charge that batter and the base on balls to the preceding pitcher, not to the relief pitcher.
(2) Any other action by such batter, such as reaching base on a hit, an error, a fielder's choice, a force-out, or being touched by a pitched ball, shall cause such a batter to be charged to the relief pitcher.
Rule 10.16(h) Comment: The provisions of Rule 10.16(h)(2) shall not be construed as affecting or conflicting with the provisions of Rule 10.16(g).
(3) If, when pitchers are changed, the count is
2 balls, 2 strikes,
1 ball, 2 strikes,
1 ball, 1 strike,
1 ball, no strike,
no ball, 2 strikes,
no ball, 1 strike,
the official scorer shall charge that batter and the actions of that batter to the relief pitcher.
(i) When pitchers are changed during an inning, the relief pitcher shall not have the benefit of previous chances for outs not accepted in determining earned runs.
Rule 10.16(i) Comment: It is the intent of Rule 10.16(i) to charge a relief pitcher with earned runs for which such relief pitcher is solely responsible. In some instances, runs charged as earned against the relief pitcher can be charged as unearned against the team. For example:
(1) With two out and Peter pitching, Abel reaches first base on a base on balls. Baker reaches first base on an error. Roger relieves Peter. Charlie hits a home run, scoring three runs. The official scorer shall charge two unearned runs to Peter, one earned run to Roger and three unearned runs to the team (because the inning should have ended with the third out when Baker batted and an error was committed).
(2) With two out, and Peter pitching, Abel and Baker each reach first base on a base on balls. Roger relieves Peter. Charlie reaches first base on an error. Daniel hits a home run, scoring four runs. The official scorer shall charge two unearned runs to Peter and two unearned runs to Roger (because the inning should have ended with the third out when Charlie batted and an error was committed).
(3) With none out and Peter pitching, Abel reaches first base on a base on balls. Baker reaches first base on an error. Roger relieves Peter. Charlie hits a home run, scoring three runs. Daniel and Edward strike out. Frank reaches first base on an error. George hits a home run, scoring two runs. The official scorer shall charge two runs, one of them earned, to Peter, three runs, one of them earned, to Roger and five runs, two of them earned, to the team (because only Abel and Charlie would have scored in an inning reconstructed without the errors).

Actually I know the rule and so does 3 finger glove. Here is the problem I have with your scenario. When you bring in your relief pitcher (after the "K") you have a man on 2nd base put there by the previous pitcher via the error and advanced to 2nd base by the sac bunt. Rule 10.16 (g) OBR states When pitchers are changed during an inning, the official scorer shall not charge the relief pitcher with any run (earned or unearned) scored by a runner who was on base at the time such relief pitcher entered the game

So If you did bring in a relief pitcher and he gave up two runs, the first run (man on 2nd base) would be unearned and charged to pitcher #1. The second run would be UNearned to the team but charged as an earned run to the relief pitcher. That's why it gets over complicated (because it is).
Fungo

quote:

Originally posted by Fungo:
Actually I know the rule and so does 3 finger glove. Here is the problem I have with your scenario. When you bring in your relief pitcher (after the "K") you have a man on 2nd base put there by the previous pitcher via the error and advanced to 2nd base by the sac bunt. Rule 10.16 (g) OBR states When pitchers are changed during an inning, the official scorer shall not charge the relief pitcher with any run (earned or unearned) scored by a runner who was on base at the time such relief pitcher entered the game

So If you did bring in a relief pitcher and he gave up two runs, the first run (man on 2nd base) would be unearned and charged to pitcher #1. The second run would be UNearned to the team but charged as an earned run to the relief pitcher. That's why it gets over complicated (because it is).
Fungo

That’s just my bad for not thinking the scenario through. I saw the 3 singles and quickly assumed they’d produced 2 runs all by themselves. That’s why posting the rule is always best. It stands on its own, no matter what someone says.

But if you knew the rule, why did you even ask? Was that some kind of test for me? If you think I’m wrong or full of BS, please don’t hesitate to just come out and say so, rather than wasting my and everyone else’s time. I do my best at this stuff and am not here to try to show anyone to be some kind of fool, or to make myself out to be some kind of expert.

quote:

If you think I’m wrong or full of BS, please don’t hesitate to just come out and say so, rather than wasting my and everyone else’s time.

This is not about who's right or wrong it's about hammering out answers to questions. I just think we had a breakdown in communications. You missed my question and focused on making your point and I felt as if the message you were sending was somewhat condescending. You cut and pasted 4 full pages from OBR and still didn't address my question. (I deleted one of the four pages that I determined was a duplicate) and I assume you have since deleted the others.

I first asked you this basic question:

quote:

would you quote the rule that states the runners which were left on base would be charged as earned runs to the relief pitcher? I can't find it.

I assumed (my bad) that when you read my question you would say to yourself: Hmmmm "runners left on base are NOT charged to the relief pitcher". I then assumed your next post would contain basically the same words as you put in your last post where you said:

quote:

That’s just my bad for not thinking the scenario through. I saw the 3 singles and quickly assumed they’d produced 2 runs all by themselves.

Instead you came back with 4 posts of OBR "cut and paste" directed to me so I responded with a "I already knew the answer" comment.

Seriously, I appreciate your time and dedication to the rules of baseball and I think this thread can be an example how complicated and frustrating scorekeeping can be. Keep up the good work.
Fungo

quote:

Originally posted by Fungo:
This is not about who's right or wrong it's about …

The reason for the duplicates was there’s no way to preview that I’ve found here yet, so I have to post something, then edit it. Unfortunately, I didn’t notice that I’d hit the reply rather than the edit. Believe it or not, each of those posts was different.

It was completely and totally my fault that the extra pages showed up, but I certainly wasn’t trying to be condescending. But, there was definitely a reason I posted the ENTIRE OBR Rule about earned runs. If anyone looked at the NFHS rule, and I hoped they did, they would have seen that the 60 odd word paragraph in the rule book, plus not even one work about it in the casebook, does cause a lot of folks problems, compared to if they’d simply use OBR.

quote:

Originally posted by Fungo:…I assumed (my bad) that when you read my question you would … Seriously, I appreciate your time and dedication to the rules of baseball and I think this thread can be an example how complicated and frustrating scorekeeping can be. Keep up the good work.
Fungo

No problem! There are gonna always be communication issues using this medium. Like I said, I take full blame for fumble-fingering this one.

In fact, another reason I hate NFHS rules is, they don’t make the darn things available in electronic format, so if you want to quote something, you have to type it out.

I surely wish more people would understand just how hard it is to do a good job with the book. In fact, I often get a big kick out the answers people get who ask umpires scoring questions. I know a lot of Blues who keep score, but there are a lot of them who never look at rule 10 because it has nothing to do with the actual playing of the game.

No harm no foul. We eventually got it right! LOL!