I score using gamechanger and it scored this as an earned run but i do not think it is right. Situation is 2 outs. Pitcher hits batter. Next batter hits a single. lead runner continues to 3rd and throw is clearly ahead of runner but 3rd baseman goes to apply tag before he has the ball. Runner then continues on to home again throw is in time but 3rd baseman throws over the catchers head. Next batter strikes out. Is this earned or not?
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Nope, sounds like 2 errors on the play to me.
Nope, sounds like 2 errors on the play to me.
It's at least one error for sure, had to be there to score two (the second one I would have to see).
Doesn't really matter in the OP as either way the runner is out or stranded at third and run is unearned.
I've found these scoring programs require you help them in cases like this by changing earned to unearned. I'm too old for game changer but some of the apple apps I've used allow you to over ride this by editing the result.
This may get off subject just a bit.
What I found when I converted my stat program to a scoring program, was that no matter how “automatic” a scoring program can be made, the user still has to know the scoring rules. 
I’ve run into problems where a runner on 3rd doesn’t score on a hit, or a runner on 2nd doesn’t go to 3rd on a hit. I also do unnecessary pitches, and they’re even more difficult to figger out than ER/UERs. Same with winning and losing pitcher, and really a whole raft of other things.
Stats, I can imagine that 95% of implementing a scoring program is pretty straight forward and that last 5% is a real pain in the butt.
The Apple App had a bug where it wouldn't count pitches in an at bat that didn't finish (R1, 3-1 count on batter, R1 caught stealing for third out, five pitches disappear from the pitch count).
Yeah, most if it is flat out simple. But, there are those PITAs, and it seems like every 10 games or so, another one shows up! In fact, I’ve got one right now. I suppose a lot depends on definitions, but I’ll explain.
Runner on base with an open base in front of him. Runner takes off on strike 3 but gets thrown out. Is that a double play where the pitcher gets credit for a DP, the catcher and the fielder making the PO are credited with a DP, and the runner popped for a CS, or is it just a play where the runner gets popped for the CS, the catcher gets an assist and the player making the tage gets the put out, and the batter for a K?
I’ve always heard it called a “strikem out, throwem out double play”, but can’t find an example in the “book”.
Yeah, most if it is flat out simple. But, there are those PITAs, and it seems like every 10 games or so, another one shows up! In fact, I’ve got one right now. I suppose a lot depends on definitions, but I’ll explain.
Runner on base with an open base in front of him. Runner takes off on strike 3 but gets thrown out. Is that a double play where the pitcher gets credit for a DP, the catcher and the fielder making the PO are credited with a DP, and the runner popped for a CS, or is it just a play where the runner gets popped for the CS, the catcher gets an assist and the player making the tage gets the put out, and the batter for a K?
I’ve always heard it called a “strikem out, throwem out double play”, but can’t find an example in the “book”.
Stats: My son is playing D1 baseball at a pretty good school. Their home score keeper has me ABSOLUTELY BEFUDLED. I'm going on 20 games into the season and there are things going on I just didn't get.
One last Sunday saved me son an earned run (so no capital letters), but as I went back and retraced, I finally came to the conlusion they're using a computer program and when an error occurs, the program assumes an out on an error.
As we all know, not every error, should've resulted in an out.
For example (this didn't really happen, I'm making it up
), slow roller to third base, thrown away, scorer calls it hit & E for runner going to second. R2 comes around to score without any issues and would've easily scored if he was stuck on first after the hit, they score unearned. No way that run is unearned in my book.
Other things I find amazing is the standard for error on either team is sub little league. I scored errors in T-Ball that are being counted as hits in D-I.
I went to a HS game this week and one of my fellow scorekeepers was lementing a H/E call on an absolute missle to the left of the second basemand that ran up his arm on an outstretch. He put "E" on the board and I made him change it, and this was his kid hitting...
Ya know, it almost always befuzzles me that people believe that anything referred to as “D1”, automatically means everything about it is perfect or close to it. I’m sure there are a lot of D1 teams that have excellent SKs, but anyone who believes they’re all great is living in a dream world.
A couple years back I kept the official book in a home and home for the 2 local D1s. The team scorers were both in the booth as well, and I couldn’t believe the challenges I was getting or some of the questions I was asked. As always, I had a copy of both OBR and the rules I was scoring under, in that case the NCAA. In about the 6th inning of the 1st game I got tired of the inane prattle and put both books on the table.
Turns out that neither scorer, one a parent and the other a team manager, had ever looked at either book’s scoring rules! The manager had played all through HS and 2 years in college until he got hurt, and the parent had played as high as AA. Like most other people, they just ASSUMED they knew everything there was about scoring a ball game. After all how could anyone play at that high a level and not know the rules?
What I ended up doing about ERs/UERs in my program is, assume every run is earned. I can manually change them during the game, but to tell the truth, I seldom do. After the game is over, I have a little button I press. It gives me a “form” that has 3 more buttons on it.
The 1st prints every inning that has any kind of an error in it. I use that to determine how many pitches were “unnecessary”.
The 2nd prints every inning where a run scored. Then it goes through those innings and prints only those that have an error, a passed ball, or catcher’s interference. That way I only have to bother with only those runs that are possible to be UE.
The last one let’s me choose who to give the W, L, and/or Sv. For that I use the whole scoresheet because I didn’t want to try to write all the code it would take to let the computer do it.
You’re seeing the same things I see when it comes to the standard used for judging H/E. Most of the time its due to a lack of understanding of the “ORDINARY EFFORT” definition. The problem is, the only rule set I find it in, is OBR. Its definitely not in NFHS or NCAA rules, so if the scorer doesn’t look at OBR as the basis for all rules, s/he would be left to determine what it was on their own.
That’s where most folks allow “bias” to slip in, because they don’t understand that every action has an equal and opposite reaction. FI, scoring a hit where it isn’t true gives the pitcher ERs that might not be earned, and makes the fielders look a lot better than they are, and scoring an error when it should be a hit does the exact opposite.
I quit trying to correct the scoreboard operator a long time ago. If they ask me I’ll tell them what I have, but other than that, I don’t care what they put on the board. The only things that count are what’s in the book.
Ya know, it almost always befuzzles me that people believe that anything referred to as “D1”, automatically means everything about it is perfect or close to it. I’m sure there are a lot of D1 teams that have excellent SKs, but anyone who believes they’re all great is living in a dream world.
A couple years back I kept the official book in a home and home for the 2 local D1s. The team scorers were both in the booth as well, and I couldn’t believe the challenges I was getting or some of the questions I was asked. As always, I had a copy of both OBR and the rules I was scoring under, in that case the NCAA. In about the 6th inning of the 1st game I got tired of the inane prattle and put both books on the table.
Turns out that neither scorer, one a parent and the other a team manager, had ever looked at either book’s scoring rules! The manager had played all through HS and 2 years in college until he got hurt, and the parent had played as high as AA. Like most other people, they just ASSUMED they knew everything there was about scoring a ball game. After all how could anyone play at that high a level and not know the rules?
What I ended up doing about ERs/UERs in my program is, assume every run is earned. I can manually change them during the game, but to tell the truth, I seldom do. After the game is over, I have a little button I press. It gives me a “form” that has 3 more buttons on it.
The 1st prints every inning that has any kind of an error in it. I use that to determine how many pitches were “unnecessary”.
The 2nd prints every inning where a run scored. Then it goes through those innings and prints only those that have an error, a passed ball, or catcher’s interference. That way I only have to bother with only those runs that are possible to be UE.
The last one let’s me choose who to give the W, L, and/or Sv. For that I use the whole scoresheet because I didn’t want to try to write all the code it would take to let the computer do it.
You’re seeing the same things I see when it comes to the standard used for judging H/E. Most of the time its due to a lack of understanding of the “ORDINARY EFFORT” definition. The problem is, the only rule set I find it in, is OBR. Its definitely not in NFHS or NCAA rules, so if the scorer doesn’t look at OBR as the basis for all rules, s/he would be left to determine what it was on their own.
That’s where most folks allow “bias” to slip in, because they don’t understand that every action has an equal and opposite reaction. FI, scoring a hit where it isn’t true gives the pitcher ERs that might not be earned, and makes the fielders look a lot better than they are, and scoring an error when it should be a hit does the exact opposite.
I quit trying to correct the scoreboard operator a long time ago. If they ask me I’ll tell them what I have, but other than that, I don’t care what they put on the board. The only things that count are what’s in the book.
Amen brother... There was another one on Wednesday's game. I would've scored E-5 at the 12U club softball level, but at D-I baseball, it was an infield hit. No impact on ERA but just another opportunity to wonder about what these guys are thinking...
Originally Posted by JMoff:
Amen brother... There was another one on Wednesday's game. I would've scored E-5 at the 12U club softball level, but at D-I baseball, it was an infield hit. No impact on ERA but just another opportunity to wonder about what these guys are thinking...
I don’t know what they’re thinking either, but I know this. They’re main purpose isn’t scoring the game, then watching it. They’re watching it 1st, then trying to score it as an afterthought. Anyone who hasn’t tried to do a good job scoring wouldn’t understand the difference, but anyone who has, would.
