Earned run question

Depends upon what happened in the rest of the inning.

Texan, that is one possibility but not the most likely one.

In a case where the runner responds to the pickoff throw by simply taking off for third, if he is safe at third, I think the rule is you cannot presume a caught stealing and thus, you could not presume the out, score it a clean SB, and his eventual run would be earned.

In a rundown situation, though, the runner should be put out with reasonable effort. A bad throw is an error for letting him remain alive, and not only if an extra base is obtained. That is, the rundown is different from what happens if, e.g., a runner steals second and is safe on a catcher's overthrow. (In that situation it's a stolen base and no E unless the runner advances beyond second.)

I would probably rule this run unearned because the runner would have been out and off the bases but for the error. Also any runs that scored after two were out would be unearned, because there should have been three outs by then.

Either you score an E and you reconstruct the inning as if he had been put out, or you don't score an E and there's no hypothesizing for you to do.

The only way that subsequent events in the inning would affect this would be if you believe that absent the error, the runner would have been safe in an attempt to return to second. In reconstructing that inning, you would say the runner would have advanced to third on the ground out (not home), and then you would have to look at what happened after to determine whether or not he would have scored absent the E.

willj1967,
In my opinion your scorekeeper is right. That run will always be an unearned run because he was caught stealing and an error prolonged his life on the basepaths. Yes you can assume a "caught stealing" and this runner meets all the criteria by your description.

1. A runner shall be charged as “Caught Stealing” if he is put out, or would have been put out by errorless play when he (1) Tries to steal OR (2) Is picked off a base and tries to advance (any move toward the next base shall be considered an attempt to advance).


No run shall be earned when scored by a runner whose life is prolonged by an error, if such runner would have been put out by errorless play.
Fungo

But do we know that - for sure - the runner would have been put out had the throw not been bad? The poster has not told us this.

If the runner merely advanced because of a bad throw but would not have been put out by a good throw, then a determination cannot be made without knowing what else happened in the inning.

If the situation met what was described by Fungo, then I would agree - unearned. But the poster didn't give enough information to reach that conclusion.

So, yes, it may have been uneared. Or it may make a difference what else happened in that inning. Need more info.

I am not sure about most umpires, but I don't keep up with the books. I usually don't know the score, unless there is a run rule...lol. I have too much to worry about without getting to the scorebook as well.

I should clarify a couple things. First, the runner was leading off second and starting the first steps of his secondary lead when he realized the throw was coming to second. He took two steps back toward second but quickly realized he would be out. He broke for third and was caught in a rundown that, unfortunately, required about 5 throws. He really should have been out easily and would have been tagged out when he finally tried get back to the 2B bag and the overthrow allowed him to advance to 3B. (Had the overthrow been accurate he would have been out.)

After reaching third, he scored on a ground out by B2, who was recorded as the first out of the inning.

After reading all the replies here, I think our scoring was accurate....unearned run.

Thanks.
Jon

I would agree, then.

Had the situation been different - i.e., the runner had the throw beat and the throw went past 2B and into RF thus allowing the runner to advance - then the rest of the inning would determine if the run was earned.

My son had a run charged against him when he tried to pick a guy off at 1st. The ball hit the ground and leaped over the 1st baseman and went down the line. Scored on a single. He was charged with an error and an UER. It flip back to ER a week later and flipped back to UER and finally ER.
Another time a runner on 2nd and 1st. A shot to 2nd baseman was ****led and it was an easy force at 3rd. All safe,error to 2nd baseman. Runner on 3rd scored on a sac fly. Home scorekeep called it UeR and away score keeper ER. It appeared as UER on stats then changed to ER a few days later.
I had already printed out the play by play and the cummalative stats before they did the flip flop.

B-Doll:

In the first situation, the fact that it was the pitcher's E would not change whether or not the run was ruled earned or unearned. The issue is, what happened after the E? You say there was a single after the E. Without the E, there would then have been runners at, say, 1st and 2nd. If the next guy hit a double, the run is earned. If the pitcher got K's until the inning was ended, unearned. You have to reconstruct the inning hypothetically as if the E did not occur.

In the other situation, the question may be a scorekeeper's judgment on whether the 2B would have, if he had fielded it cleanly, played it to third. That's kind of an unusual play. Usually a hot smash would be played to the SS covering second, in hopes of turning a DP. So, in reconstructing the inning, you would score the E-4, and pretend that an out was made at 2nd. If that would have been the first out, then the following sac fly would still have scored the guy from third, therefore the run would be earned. If it would've been the second out, then the fly would've been the third out, run couldn't have scored, therefore unearned.

The rules state that if there is doubt as to whether the run would have scored without the E, the pitcher gets the benefit of the doubt, i.e., when in doubt it's unearned.

I always remember that rule when it's MY son on the mound!