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Eckstein's affect on College Recruiting

B Baller2610+ posts
Having watched the World Series last and the play of David Eckstein, I can't stop thinking of how he relates to college recruiting. Here is man that is only 5'7 that is a major factor in the game's premier event. His size doesn't seem to affect his play at all.

However in today's college recruiting, size and the "projectable frame" seem to be key factors in who colleges pursue. Look at a D1 roster and it is hard to find many players that are below 6'0. Sure you might find a catcher or a 2nd baseman but the vast majority are over 6'0. Then look at a D III program and look at the sizes. What I'm saying is size doesn't define talent and heart and we can see numerous examples of this in the pros. There is Eckstein, Billy Wagner, Roy Oswalt, Pedro etc etc. In fact, if you look at the rosters of the Tigers and the Cards you tend to find more small players than you find on most D1 colleges. Personally I think this game needs to be based on talent and not size and it is nice to see David Eckstein prove himself. And then we have Bud Selig wondering why steroids are in baseball. Maybe its because many scouts have tunnel vision. Do you think you have to be tall to play the game?
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Dad04Dad045,000+ posts
Eckstein was a division 1 player at U. of Florida. Believe it or not but there are lots of examples in the past few years of very successful players under six feet in height, including several pitchers. My son plays with a pitcher from South Florida, 5-10 150#, and clocked at 94 this fall.

There are some little guys around that can throw 90 or hit the ball 400 feet, in his case he can do both. That type of frame will not thrill a pro scout looking at high schoolers, but they usually get an opportunity out of college, like Eckstein did, if they can play.

If they keep proving they can play the move up, they just have a smaller window of opportunity.

To answer your q, if you can play, then college coaches will not really care how tall you are. There are plenty of players, who look great getting off the bus, that can't carry Eck's jock strap. I'll bet every player he beat out in college looked down on him.
BeezerBeezer1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Dad04:
He did walk on in Gainesville. Exactly my point. If you can play, you will play. The world will not usually beat a path to your door if your are 5-7 though.


But I think that's contradictory. If he can play, then why did he have to walkon?? Granted, the recruiters aren't going to find everybody who can play. But they're certainly weren't looking for 5 foot-somethings when they were out knocking on doors either.
ClevelandDadClevelandDadHSBBWeb Administrator
The term walk-on can be misleading sometimes. Yes, some kids just show up at their college's walk-on tryout day and probably are 1 million to 1 shots to make the team.

I am guessing that Eckstein just didn't show up and try out at Florida. He was a member of a State Championship team in Florida and there were probably many recruiters aware of him. He probably was a recruited walk-on there where he wasnt' given any athletic money to begin with but had a decent chance to make the team because the coaches were aware of him. His bio says he later earned a scholarship there and rightfully so based on his production.
B BeenthereILHSBBWeb Old Timer
It is my understanding that Eck went to Flagler College and got cut by the coach.

Then, he walked on at UF and made the team.

I'm not a big fan of his, because he can't throw a lick and he plays MLB at shortstop. He just gets the job done.

Love listening to people talk about his 4 "hits" yesterday. Two outfield errors and a swing bunt to 3rd.

Good for him and his fans, though.

Look for the Cardinals to close it out tonight and for Spiezio to have a big game.

Tigers (I picked them in 4)are the biggest choke job in WS MLB history.

Of course, when they led for nearly the entire season and got nipped by the Twins for the Central division title while going 20-30 in the last 50 games should have "told" me something.

Congrats to the Cards. Please close it out tonight so we can start concentrating on the Bears.
TRhitTRhit10,000+ posts
If any of you are in Jupiter catch a College Select game and see our 5 ft 6 inch centerfielder---he bats lead off for us and runs a 6.5 60 yd dash--he is the catalyst in the batting order

As for being recruited he has a load of schools talking to him --D-I thru D-III --he is also an honor student


The kid is a player
VD Virginia Dad10+ posts
David Eckstein has done more to change attitudes in professional scouting than any person in the last 20 years. You cannot deny that he lacks tools, nor can you deny that he is a winner.

I think there is a lot to be said that the big time colleges have fallen behind the pro game in evaluating smaller players in recent years.

One of the more humerous things you can witness is a group of pro scouts being asked how they would have rated Eckstein. Fortunately, they are adjusting while I see less of this from the big time D 1 schools.
FungoFungoHighly Regarded and Beloved Old Timer
I’m sorry but I don’t see the success that David Eckstein had this year making an impact on college recruiting at all. I think his hustle and hard work would impress any coach ---- just as his arm would not! Hey let’s face it --- the baseball Gods (as well as the statisticians) were looking out for Eck and I loved watching him play his heart out. It just goes to show you that baseball is indeed a game of inches (not height) and there is very little difference between a hero and a zero.
Now I'm confused after the MVP award --- Is it pronounced "Ecksteen" or "Eckstine" Big Grin
O Orlando1,000+ posts
Some of you gentlemen might want to help me out here, as I obviously don't understand baseball.

Let's see:

Good pitching stops good hitting unless it's your team/league/prediction that's not hitting. Then they "choked". (Apparently things like Wainwright's 12-6 bender is an optical illusion. And Carp is a flash in the pan.)

"The biggest (blank) in WS history" is a phrase used for whatever the current situation is, regardless of actual history. Hyperbole is important to the game.

Capitalizing on the other guy's mistakes is not the sign of good play; that's pure luck. Not capitalizing on the other team's mistakes is another sign of this "choking" of which you speak.

Errors are yet another sign of the "choke" phenomenon. Hustle and putting pressure on have no impact on the plays made against you.

Playing your game (i.e. NL small ball) rather than the "real" game of AL Arm and Hammer is not an option.

Eckstein "can't throw", although he was 4th in the ML in FP, .004 off the leader. I guess that trick with using the second baseman as cutoff on the way to first worked out OK for him.

The Cardinals, alas, also had a losing record down the stretch. But that sad fact is silent, not "telling" anything.

Always express an opinion whether you have any idea what you're talking about or not.


Roll Eyes
Last edited by Orlando
FungoFungoHighly Regarded and Beloved Old Timer
quote:
Always express an opinion whether you have any idea what you're talking about or not.

Orlando, We need that --- isn’t that’s what feeds the topics on the HSBBW? Besides, without someone else being wrong how could you be right? Big Grin

Orlando you know your opinion is well respected and appreciated. Smile However, “choke” is a real thing. I see it as a self-induced failure that happens because of the player’s inability to handle the pressure from the situation and cannot be directly attributed to the outstanding play from the other team. I've seen pitchers choke just throwing a bullpen for a scout. I see “choke” as nothing more than the athletic term for self-destruct. “SELF” indicates the “pressure” is from within and didn’t happen because of the other team. I saw it all through the World Series on both sides. Even though I was pulling for the Cardinals I would have to say Detroit “choked” big time. But choking happened on both sides from Inge with his bad fielding decisions and base running to Duncan’s inability to catch a routine fly ball. I think Duncan “choked” so bad they had to perform the Heimlich maneuver on him. Big Grin
Fungo
ClevelandDadClevelandDadHSBBWeb Administrator
quote:
But choking happened on both sides from Inge with his bad fielding decisions and base running to Duncan’s inability to catch a routine fly ball.


Duncan looked like he had never played baseball before. He is a narly looking dude btw - chewing tobacco - yuck. In his defense, I thought Jim Edmonds didn't help things by running at him like he was not going to back off - he deserves some of the blame on the first mis-que. The second one looked like a choke.

Verlander's throw was a choke as were many of the pitching errors - an all-time WS record. Some errors seemed stupid like throwing over to first when Pujols or Molina were standing one foot off the bag. I still think the better team won this series.
Dad04Dad045,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Beezer:
quote:
Originally posted by Dad04:
He did walk on in Gainesville. Exactly my point. If you can play, you will play. The world will not usually beat a path to your door if your are 5-7 though.


But I think that's contradictory. If he can play, then why did he have to walkon?? Granted, the recruiters aren't going to find everybody who can play. But they're certainly weren't looking for 5 foot-somethings when they were out knocking on doors either.


He walked on because he looked(s) 13 years old. I didn't say you wouldn't be told you couldn't play along the way. You will, but if you believe in yourself, don't give up, the cream will rise. He was cut by the Red Sox in the minors. He could have quit then. If he didn't quit after getting the boot at NAIA Flager, the Red Sox or Gators wouldn't keep him down long. He was a real walk on at UF, not recruited.
Last edited by Dad04
Dad04Dad045,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by ClevelandDad:
quote:
He was a real walk on at UF, not recruited.


Fair enough. I still would guess the Florida coaches at least knew who he was (based on his HS State Championship) as opposed to the other "real" walk-ons.


I would agree. They know who nearly everyone is within 100 miles or more. He is still not really taken seriously. While his salary is above the league average, it must be way below the average for shortstops and is way below the guy who replaced him on the Angels, Cabrerra.
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
I didn't want to get into this but...
No, Eckstein will not change things in college recruiting. Players who can make an immediate impact will still be recruited, regardless of size.

Eckstein lacked the tools needed for larger D1 programs and the draft after HS. The best thing he did was go to college and help to develop some of those skills, which most likely he may never aquire. He does not have natural ability. He did,however, STEP up, and has the ability to do so in situations. That's about it. He's one of those "odd" players that get as far as he has.

That is not my opinion, but one from a college recruiter, scout and agent. Take it for what it's worth.
Last edited by TPM
Still LearningStill Learning100+ posts
JT,

quote:
Even in college--at all levels--I bet there was one common topic mentioned in all our boys' post-fall evaluation talk with their coaches:
I want you in the weight room getting bigger and stronger.

It's no wonder they go to supplements and "other" measures.


Not just in college, we have had to deal with this in High School as well. Both this fall and last fall our son comes home from working out with the team wanting to use additional supplements of some type to "get bigger and stronger". I know this pressure comes from the HS coach, I've heard his comments often enough myself. We only allow our son to use a 100%whey protein supplement in milk shakes and suggest foods to eat. Our HS coach used to coach at the college level and I think he forgets that these HS kids just need time to fill out their frames as well as to continue the working out and diet regiments they are following. We had one kid on the team last year suffer from liver failure from just using too much OTC stuff from GNC. He's 6' tall but just felt he couldn't gain weight fast enough to meet expectations.
Last edited by Still Learning
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
EH,
That's not my take, but someone else's.

Natural ability is the IT factor mentioned. Not all players have it, in fact many do not.

An example is a player who needs very little instruction to develop the basic fundmental skills for his position or any position. A pitcher who throws effortlessly and knows what to throw, without being told. A young player who throws a pitch without anyone teaching him. A hitter who has the uncanny ability to know just where to place the ball, recognize any pitch, without learning how to do do. A player with uncanny speed at the bases. These players may need tweeking, but very rarely need to be taught. There are not too many out there. Or the player whose body just responds without second thought, Pujols accurate throw on his back. Those things aren't taught, they are acquired in the "genes".
B BobbleheadDoll5,000+ posts
I don't care what some tom dick or hary scout says. He has "It". Anyone who worries about what these guys say or think are fools. Anyone who can play at thye ML level in a WS and play outstanding ball has "It".
I personnally thought the WS games had a lot of poor play starting with coaching decisions. How many times have I heard that "saving the ACE for the next game ? How many times have I seen that next game evaporate into thin air ?
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
quote:
Originally posted by Tiger Paw Mom:
I didn't want to get into this but...
No, Eckstein will not change things in college recruiting. Players who can make an immediate impact will still be recruited, regardless of size.

Eckstein lacked the tools needed for larger D1 programs and the draft after HS. The best thing he did was go to college and help to develop some of those skills, which most likely he may never aquire. He does not have natural ability. He did,however, STEP up, and has the ability to do so in situations. That's about it. He's one of those "odd" players that get as far as he has.

That is not my opinion, but one from a college recruiter, scout and agent. Take it for what it's worth.


Read the post, never said he didn't have "IT", just a longer time to acquire some if "IT".
H HowUbe100+ posts
Pujols Scout working at Wal-Mart

I hope this isn’t too off topic, but I thought this article shows just how hard it is for scouts to predict how a player will turn out. This article is about the scout who signed Albert Pujols.

I thought this statement was very telling.

"I will say one thing," he says. "If there's anybody that can stand there and tell me truthfully this is what they thought he'd do, I would call them a liar to their face and never flinch."
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
You are always referring to those that made it to the minors.
I am sure that you understand what the minor league system is all about. Every player drafted is NOT major league material or will they ever be. Most players are there to fill positions for ML prospects AND to fill stadiums.
As posted in another thread somewhere. Every once in a while, someone finds a diamond in the rough and beleives in him. That's the bottom line to the story.
Lot of talented players leave earlier than they should, lots of not so talented players stay longer than they should, etc.
Eckstein's story is a great one, I love stories like that, but don't go believing that this is the way it is, because for most, it's not. He also has had great advice along the way, which makes a HUGE difference in your future. In fact, his agent who is local to our state spoke to us about him early spring, calling to make some inquiries. He was the guy who beleived in him, stood by him, and that's very important. It takes a village sometimes for some, others can write their own ticket, most likely the ones who have all the things that scouts look for to fit the mold. Some are very lucky (Andrew Miller for example), they just show up, some have to work day in and day out for the opportunity.

Sometimes when you get close to a situation, you stand up and take a look around and notice, you suddenly realize why some make it and most don't.

Good story, but actually, scout HAS to believe that his top choices will make it.

I don't think that this scout was fired for what he said, in 2003 HUGE shakeup in the Cardinals scouting organization from the director, Marty Maier on down.

Sometimes shakeups are a good thing.
Last edited by TPM
B BobbleheadDoll5,000+ posts
How that is exactly my point. That is why I tell players to keep working at their game regardless of what scouts etc say.
I live in a hockey town and have seen guys in hockey and baseball go on way past what people predicted.
HS guys get drafted because of how they are now and some feel they can predict (projectability) how they will be in the future. I'll bet there are more average players that succeed than young stars.
I know several scouts personnally and some are lucky if the make a few grand a year. They like the prestige, run camps and all that but it is a tough living for most.
B BeenthereILHSBBWeb Old Timer
quote:
Some of you gentlemen might want to help me out here, as I obviously don't understand
baseball.

BTIL says: Start out with cynicism and sarcasm and you'll get an AOL chat room response.


Let's see:

Good pitching stops good hitting unless it's your team/league/prediction that's not hitting. Then they "choked". (Apparently things like Wainwright's 12-6 bender is an optical illusion. And Carp is a flash in the pan.)

BTIL...Two players who did very well during the year and during the season.

"The biggest (blank) in WS history" is a phrase used for whatever the current situation is, regardless of actual history. Hyperbole is important to the game.

BTIL...Choke is the correct choice of words. That is exactly what the Tigers did. While he didn't exactly say that about the Tigers, he kept on saying about how surprised he was that he was standing in the room as the World Series Champion...Tony LaRussa.

Capitalizing on the other guy's mistakes is not the sign of good play; that's pure luck. Not capitalizing on the other team's mistakes is another sign of this "choking" of which you speak.

BTIL....The Cards won, they sure did. But they only won 83 regular season games and they really didn't "dazzle" anyone in the Series. The only player, as a hitter, that you have to worry about on the Cards was Pujols. He was held in check. Who was afraid to pitch to Wilson, Saguchi, Spezio, Encarnacion, Yadi and Duncan? (he's lucky he didn't get killed with a ball to his face in the outfield...Don't think he caught a fly ball since T-Ball). Can you say one skill pro player?

Errors are yet another sign of the "choke" phenomenon. Hustle and putting pressure on have no impact on the plays made against you.

BTIL...For millions of dollars, Major League players are supposed to make routine plays and should also know the difference between 3rd base and 2nd base. World Series record for errors by a pitcher/pitching staff says it all. Velocity, velocity, velocity...who cares if you have a 100+ mph fastball if you have a pea sized brain in your head! Sorry that I watched the entire series and didn't notice where anyone's hustle, on the Cards side, made any difference in the outcome. When Edmonds hit that week groundball that went for a double and died about 200 feet from home plate, that exposed the fact that the Tigers first baseman had no range. Gees, he has absolutely no foot speed either, when he converted a sure triple into a double.

Playing your game (i.e. NL small ball) rather than the "real" game of AL Arm and Hammer is not an option.

Eckstein "can't throw", although he was 4th in the ML in FP, .004 off the leader. I guess that trick with using the second baseman as cutoff on the way to first worked out OK for him.

BTIL...Simple as that: HE CAN'T THROW and he has ZERO POWER. I remember when Ernie Banks, years ago, set the ML record for fielding percentage while Luis Aparicio played for the White Sox. Ernie was a hitter and could hold Luis' jock in the field. If the ball went into the hole, he would just head to second base to receive the ball from the left fielder. Let's not talk about his "hits"...on his 4-5 day: a swinging bunt that went 60 feet; an outfielder falling down on the wet grass; a leftfielder who misplayed the ball. 4-5 should have been 1-5 except for the homers doing the scoring.

The Cardinals, alas, also had a losing record down the stretch. But that sad fact is silent, not "telling" anything.

Always express an opinion whether you have any idea what you're talking about or not.


BTIL...O....Everyone who is a baseball fan, is an expert in everything. If you're 8 or 81, you're an expert. Know about everything we talk about re the game of baseball. Not that difficult.

That is my opinion and I'm sticking to it!
Last edited by BeenthereIL
Dad04Dad045,000+ posts
quote:
Though the slugger is wildly talented, he's also as sensitive as a junior high cheerleader and is still peeved because he believes Karaff said he wouldn't make it to the big leagues. In reality, Karaff felt like he was a talent but not a sure-thing first-rounder.

Interesting comment in the Pujols scout article.

Many may not be aware of Ecksteins family medical history. His family have congenital kidney problems. He has a sibling that has had a transplant and his dad needs a transplant (as of last year). David could be a donor but the family decided that he not donate to his dad, as it would A) end his career and B) preclude him from donating to one of his children, if neccessary.
O Orlando1,000+ posts
Fungo, I certainly agree that choking exists. What I don't agree with was that the Cards didn't win; the Tigers choked. Last year, was it an Astros' choke, not a White Sox win?

The Tigers were good enough, confident enough, and talented enough to get by the A's and the Yankees -- but the pressure of the Cards was too much? (hmmmmm....maybe I should be flattered for my Cards Wink

Dunc is a one-dimentional player. That he couldn't catch a fly ball surprised no one in STL. On the first, Edmonds, aware that Dunc can't catch, was calling him off. Duncan's mistake was thinking he had suddenly grown a glove. The second was, as they say, Dunc being Dunc. Can't call it a choke when we've seen it too many times this season. Can call it "lack of fielding ability" and insert the usual second-guessing of managerial decisions.

Didn't see enough Tigers' games this season to know how many times the pitchers were called upon to field. (I do know the Cards' pitchers' abilities in that area.) Was that choking or lack of experience moderating their arms to field rather than pitch?

Interesting perspective on the Series from Jayson Stark:

Improbable Champions
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