Edwin Diaz and Future of WBC

@atlnon posted:

Would have thought a thread has been started by now about this situation so I'm going ahead and start this.  I'll start with saying that I love watching WBC, seeing the passion of the players and the fans, and actually seeing Marlins park full.  I think WBC is great for the future of the sports.  Can't help but wonder how many new baseball fans were created in Great Britain thanks to Harry Ford (who my son got to play against 2 years ago when he was still in HS).

On the other hand, I can empathize with the Mets (ownership and fans).  They just invested a lot of money in him a few months ago.  They spent a lot of money to build a team to make a run at the WS.   As a Braves fan, I would like to say lolMets but I can't make myself do so as my heart just breaks for Edwin Diaz (and his brother and teammates).

I hope this doesn't kill WBC as I think it's great for baseball.  At the same time, the realistic side of me is afraid that it will.

But imagine a future where you have thriving leagues in Europe and Latin America, in addition to what's already in Japan and Taiwan.  Maybe we'll even have a true world series championship in the future!

I'm going to keep it simple

Timmy Trumpet just loss some money

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8BYSp2pzP0Y

Hey mlb star, you can play but if you get hurt, I'm not paying. Your choice.

IMHO, WBC during the spring when players are suppose to be ramping up for the season making no sense, but given that there is no good time within the mlb season, the only viable solution is to use minor league players.

MLB Team should tell mlb league, there is a share risk, if you want my star to represent, then you will need to share in the risk by setting aside some $$$ just in case my player get hurt.

Would it be better if he injured himself in a spring training game?

The answer is yes, PABASEBALL.  At least you got hurt for me and not with someone else.  It is no different than most HS coaches I know do not allow players to play or practice with any other team during the spring season.  If you are going to get hurt, you will get hurt doing what I pay you to do mentality.  I'm really surprised that college coaches do not restrict what their guys can do.  I don't think either of my sons have been told there are things you cannot do while on scholarship such as: skateboarding, skiing, motorcycles, boxing, and such.  I know there are pros that have these things in their contracts.

I would rather them get injured in a competitive atmosphere where the innings and at bats are more meaningful. Difference of opinions. If I'm a club owner I'm letting my guys play in it, encouraging it.

I understand the you're mine mentality though - just don't agree with it.

This was a freak accident. I don't think it will affect future WBC decisions.

@PABaseball posted:

I would rather them get injured in a competitive atmosphere where the innings and at bats are more meaningful. Difference of opinions. If I'm a club owner I'm letting my guys play in it, encouraging it.

I understand the you're mine mentality though - just don't agree with it.

The problem is you can't have 2 masters, the adrenaline level will be higher for WBC vs spring training.

Also, what is the objective?

As long as MLB is backing the WBC it’s not going anywhere.  

Horrendous, pointless injury, but stuff happens.  The cranky baseball dad in me knew this would happen to somebody someday, though I didn’t imagine it would be one of the best players in the game.  I feel terrible for Diaz, but at least he’s getting paid. I feel worse for the former USC player who tore his ACL at the combine last week.  

@CollegebaseballInsights posted:

Also, what is the objective?

The pride and satisfaction of playing for your country?  The privilege of wearing the red, white and blue?  The opportunity to bring attention to your small country that is often overlooked?

Interesting: the Athletic is reporting that the WBC will pay Diaz’s 2023 salary.

@atlnon posted:

The pride and satisfaction of playing for your country?  The privilege of wearing the red, white and blue?  The opportunity to bring attention to your small country that is often overlooked?

Aren't you are representing your country by playing in the mlb.

Secondly, if you want players at peak form why just use the olympics?

Not representing your country in MLB, it's a business!  

They kicked baseball out of the Olympics years ago, although supposedly they're bringing it back. But the Olympics is usually right in the middle of the MLB season.

I like the WBC timing and format. The risk is real, but he wasn't injured playing, he was injured by the celebration. I assume no-one will do that kind of thing again.

@JCG posted:

Interesting: the Athletic is reporting that the WBC will pay Diaz’s 2023 salary.

The WBC is an international baseball tournament run by the World Baseball Softball Federation in partnership with MLB.

My son played on the inaugural team for Team Israel. Both his paycheck and insurance, expenses, etc, was paid by MLB. These organizations are making millions on the Classic.

The WBC is awesome. It's here to stay.  The injury didn't occur while Diaz was playing.

It's up to every player to weigh the ramifications of being involved. Diaz had a chance to decline.

@anotherparent posted:

Not representing your country in MLB, it's a business!  

They kicked baseball out of the Olympics years ago, although supposedly they're bringing it back. But the Olympics is usually right in the middle of the MLB season.

I like the WBC timing and format. The risk is real, but he wasn't injured playing, he was injured by the celebration. I assume no-one will do that kind of thing again.

The WBC is also a business, just like the IBAF.

And if their Headquarters are in Switzerland, then you should check out the Real Sports episode concerning the money laundering.

Players have the right to play, and as a owner that is paying your salary, I should have the right not to pay for being hurt doing activities that were not for the benefit of my company.

@TPM posted:

The WBC is an international baseball tournament run by the World Baseball Softball Federation in partnership with MLB.

My son played on the inaugural team for Team Israel. Both his paycheck and insurance, expenses, etc, was paid by MLB. These organizations are making millions on the Classic.

The WBC is awesome. It's here to stay.  The injury didn't occur while Diaz was playing.

It's up to every player to weigh the ramifications of being involved. Diaz had a chance to decline.

Just wondering because I’ve seen it a few times.  How did your son play for Israel?   Sons friend played for a country he had no connection to

I am not sure, my son is Jewish. I believe each player from every team has to prove ancestry or some connection. There were a few players on the team whose wives were Jewish. I think each team has their own set of rules under WBC.  The inaugural team was made up of Iraelis who played on Team Israel. The team didn't make it out of the first round out of Jupiter, however it was such an awesome experience. The team 4 years ago was the real deal. They made a movie out of the experience, Heading Home.

Team England is NOT made up of actual English people, for example.  Someone told me they have English parents or something like that

Wait - Centerfielder (lol) Joc Pederson is not Israeli?  

@JCG posted:

Wait - Centerfielder (lol) Joc Pederson is not Israeli?  

Nope.

It is interesting how they do that stuff sometimes.  Son faced Team Canada 18U team and at least 1/3 of them never lived in Canada.

@PitchingFan posted:

It is interesting how they do that stuff sometimes.  Son faced Team Canada 18U team and at least 1/3 of them never lived in Canada.

I think it's good that they try to get more players into the game. I just read that Team Israel is comprised of mostly American Jews who have obtained Israeli citizenship or are eligible for it.

So I suppose every team has a protocol.

18U Team Canada makes the rounds. They play here in FL. A parent told me they need to come to US to practice!

Joc Pederson, a valuable member of Team Israel.

https://www.sportingnews.com/u...5hwvsyykzvii11xh51ho

Jerry Weinstein one of the HS web site contributors and former Sac City College Head Coach and former coach of Team Israel.

Bob

@TPM posted:

Team Israel Inaugural team

My son was on the team and pitched,  a minor leaguer for the Tigers at the time so not mentioned.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wik...an%20Josh%20Satin%20(.

@TPM posted:

I am not sure, my son is Jewish. I believe each player from every team has to prove ancestry or some connection. There were a few players on the team whose wives were Jewish. I think each team has their own set of rules under WBC.  The inaugural team was made up of Iraelis who played on Team Israel. The team didn't make it out of the first round out of Jupiter, however it was such an awesome experience. The team 4 years ago was the real deal. They made a movie out of the experience, Heading Home.

Played little league (11u-12u) with Team Israel manager in NYC. He was on the younger side.

@anotherparent posted:

I like the WBC timing and format. The risk is real, but he wasn't injured playing, he was injured by the celebration. I assume no-one will do that kind of thing again.

It happens all the time during celebrations and will continue to happen.  I tell anyone who will listen, never participate in these things - be it a post-game jump routine like they did in the WBC Diaz situation or a more traditional dog pile.  Cody Bellinger dislocated his shoulder doing a high arm lock with a teammate after a homerun and in my opinion, he has never been the same.  Just last night, I was watching Miami and Virginia Tech.  Yo Yo Morales hit a walk-off double in the bottom of the ninth with two outs.  Frankly, I was concerned for his safety.  His teammates rushed him and started what looked like tearing at his body.  He almost lost his balance and almost fell under a crushing load.  Six or seven guys weigh over 1000 lbs.  They ripped his shirt off and there were no injuries but if I am the coach, I forbid any type of dog pile or wild post-game celebration.  I don't see an end to foolishness.     

CD;

I agree 100%. It also "motivates" the opposing team for the next time the 2 teams play.

It is "ONE" game, not the final game of the World Series. The Coaches are responsible to act professionally.

Bob

Player Eligibility

Each player on a Federation Team’s approved Provisional Roster must be eligible to participate for that Federation Team. A player will be so eligible only if:

• The player previously appeared on a Federation Team’s final roster at the start of either a World Baseball Classic Qualifier or Tournament round; or

•  The player is a citizen of the Federation Team’s country or territory, as evidenced by a valid passport the player holds as of three months prior to the start of the Tournament; or

•  The player is currently a permanent legal resident of the Federation Team’s country or territory, as evidenced by documentation satisfactory to WBCI and the World Baseball Softball Confederation (“WBSC”), or

•  The player was born in the Federation Team’s country or territory, as evidenced by a birth certificate or its equivalent; or

•  The player has at least one parent who is, or if deceased was, a citizen of the Federation Team’s country or territory, as evidenced by a passport or other documentation satisfactory to WBCI and the WBSC; or

•  The player has at least one parent who was born in the Federation Team’s country or territory, as evidenced by a birth certificate or its equivalent; or

•  The player presents documentary evidence satisfactory to WBCI that he would be granted citizenship or a passport in due course under the laws of the Federation Team’s country or territory (excluding any requirement of the Federation Team’s country that the player would need to renounce his current citizenship), if he were to apply for such citizenship or passport.

In the case if Israel eligibility would be by the The Law of Return, an Israeli law, passed on 5 July 1950. It gives people with one or more Jewish grandparent, and their spouses the right to relocate to Israel and acquire Israel citizenship.

Thanks.  I read this and I assume some of the guys who participate for certain countries may have been born there or went through the process early enough to be citizens there.  One friend said some pro athletes do it to avoid certain taxes but that seems really extreme.

@PitchingFan posted:

Thanks.  I read this and I assume some of the guys who participate for certain countries may have been born there or went through the process early enough to be citizens there.  One friend said some pro athletes do it to avoid certain taxes but that seems really extreme.

Arozarnea had a interesting journey

https://www.sportskeeda.com/ba...y-life-moving-mexico

@PitchingFan posted:

Thanks.  I read this and I assume some of the guys who participate for certain countries may have been born there or went through the process early enough to be citizens there.  One friend said some pro athletes do it to avoid certain taxes but that seems really extreme.

Pro athletes have to pay taxes in every state they play.

RJM;

There is NO State income tax in Florida, Nevada, Texas, Alaska, South Dakota, Washington, Tennessee, Wyoming.

Bob

@Consultant posted:

RJM;

There is NO income tax in Florida, Nevada, Texas, Alaska, South Dakota, Washington, Tennessee, Wyoming.

Bob

Bob,

isn't that one of the reasons DeGrom signed with Texas?

A major factor. Opportunity to help the team content.

Bob

Since you opened that can.  Do you think NIL money will be taxed the same way as pro money?

@Consultant posted:

RJM;

There is NO State income tax in Florida, Nevada, Texas, Alaska, South Dakota, Washington, Tennessee, Wyoming.

Bob

Any state there is a tax pro athletes have to pay for the number of games played there.

@CollegebaseballInsights posted:

Bob,

isn't that one of the reasons DeGrom signed with Texas?

Probably. But it doesn’t exclude him from paying taxes on away games.

What an ending!!!

I can't help but see the joy and pride of the players playing for their country, and playing with and against the best players in their country and the world in meaningful games (not like the all star games), and then think of all the other players that didn't participate (either bec they didn't want to take the risk, their teams didn't allow them, or they can't get insurance).  Can't help imagining what it would it be like if all the countries truly have the best players.  Would the players that didn't participate be more interested in participating after seeing this year's WBC?  I don't know if there's anything about this WBC that would move the needle for making the MLB teams be more willing to allow their players to participate.

On the other hand, while the USA team's gap seems to be lack of pitching talent/depth, giving up only 3 runs should have been enough to win it.

It was a great ending to a long tournament.  Japan deserved the "W", and I enjoyed the few games I was able to watch.  What made the tournament great was the competitive spirit and people coming together for baseball.   We need more of this in our lives.   Athletes get a different mindset when they are wearing their countries name on their jersey...you can really see it. 

My only "disappointment" was that the United States pitching staff came to a gun fight with a butter knife.   I'm not going to sugar coat it.  Our country was not represented on the mound the way it could have been.   I don't know what the answer is, but the United States left some of the best pitchers in the world watching last nights game at home.  Japan took it to us, and they outplayed us.  They are the world champions.

As always, JMO.

@fenwaysouth posted:

It was a great ending to a long tournament.  Japan deserved the "W", and I enjoyed the few games I was able to watch.  What made the tournament great was the competitive spirit and people coming together for baseball.   We need more of this in our lives.   Athletes get a different mindset when they are wearing their countries name on their jersey...you can really see it.

My only "disappointment" was that the United States pitching staff came to a gun fight with a butter knife.   I'm not going to sugar coat it.  Our country was not represented on the mound the way it could have been.   I don't know what the answer is, but the United States left some of the best pitchers in the world watching last nights game at home.  Japan took it to us, and they outplayed us.  They are the world champions.

As always, JMO.

Very much agreed with everything you said except on the impact of the lack of quality pitchers and lack of pitching depth on the championship game.  While I am disappointed that the top American pitchers didn't participate (either their decision or their club's decision), I think the pitching performance in the championship game was good enough to win it.  The pitching only gave up 3 runs.  That should have been enough.  The vaunted offense did not hit at the right spot/time (US outhit Japan).

Imo the risk in WBC isn't much higher than it is in spring training. Maybe effort is a bit higher in WBC but pitchers in wbc are on pitch counts too.

Sure Edwin Diaz blew out his knee but so did Gavin lux in spring training.