Enforcement of rules

Yeah I did not see any reason for a flag on that play. Why these refs can not see the difference in taunting and "look at me" celebrations vs something like this kid did is beyond me.

The refs should not decide the outcome of games. Let the players do that.

As some of you know, I also coach Golf. Don't laugh! Well, this year more than any other I've been asked to serve on the Rules Committee for a few tournaments. While people might seem to think this an easy task, it isn't. During one particular tournament, the course Pro came up to me with a situation. It was what most would consider a very insignificant violation of the rules. However, there aren't "insignificant violations." The Pro said to me that if I allowed this violation, the the entire integrity of the tournament would be compromised. He was right. Although it was hard to do, the right thing to do is enforce the rules that everyone plays by. I had to disqualify this player. It cost this player a medal in the tournament. However, it opened up the opportunity for another player to earn a medal that had played by the rules for the entire tournament.

I'm not smart enough to decide when to enforce the rules and when not to enforce them. So, I'll just enforce them all the time. That is why they have rule books and every coach is expected to know the rules and make sure that the players know the rules.

quote:

The quarterback scores and gets up and throws the ball up in the air in celebration. The refs tosses a flag on him for unsportsmanlike conduct. This backs the extra point back to make it a 35 yard try. BYU blocks the kick and they run the clock out to win the game.

Reading what you've put, I have to agree with throwing the flag. However, the clock should not have started on the PAT attempt unless the rules have changed VERY recently.

Coach I certainly understand that post and in no way do I mean to be critical of your response. After all you are one of my favorite posters on this site.

You could call holding on any play. You could call a penalty on any play of every game and you would be within the rules to do so. What is the intent of the rule and what is the written rule?

I think its very important for an official and umpire etc to have common sense and be capable of using good judgement.

The speed limit is 35. Do you write a ticket for a person doing 36? Do you write a ticket for a person doing 39? Where do you draw the line? What if its raining and your in a neighborhood and kids are waiting outside for the school bus? Would you then write a ticket for 42 but not if it was in a rural neighborhood and no weather conditions present? Or do you just say "Hey the speed limit is 35 and if you are going over 35 even if its 36 you are going to get a ticket."

If the score had been 49 - 0 and the winning team had just scored a touchdown to make it 55 - 0 yes enforce the penalty. But it was a great play in the last seconds to give his team a chance to tie. Understand the situation and use some freaking common sense.

If we are going to live by the written law and not the spirit of the law we are in for some hard times. A good police officer uses sound common sense and understands the spirit of the law. A good ref or umpire does the same thing. When we take their ability to use their own sound judgement in enforceing these rules away from them and they start saying "Hey the rule is the rule" then we end up with them deciding outcomes instead of the players. JMHO

I did watch that game, And thought that it was unfortunate that the flag was thrown on the QB from the Washington Huskies
( Jake Locker, Also a very fine baseball player ).
But he, The QB should not of put himself in that position.
Don't give the umpire the reason to throw the flag.

EH

How would you feel if you were the BYU coach and and knowing the rule and saw it not being inforced? How many times have we told our son's not to leave it up to the umpire.

Great discussion and some of you guys have caused me to rethink my position a little.

Bulldog I think I lead you down the wrong road with my description. They kicked the ball and then on the kickoff they ran the clock out. There haven't been any rule changes in that regard.

My apologies.

Who was more caught up in the game. Refs like umpires need to be invisible, a part of the game where a level head is needed.

The question that needs to be asked is if the call is not made is there a complaint from the other team for excessive celabration?.

I can tell you exactly how I would feel. I want to win the game not have it handed to me with a bogus call.

Have you ever played football? Do you understand the emotions that are play? He was not showboating and saying "Hey look at me."

Yeah lets take the emotion out of the game. Lets all be robots. OK refs call every holding infraction you see on every play. It doesnt matter if he has anything to do with the outcome of the play or not.

The rules are the rules. We dont need humans to ref we need computers. We need robots with no common sense or the ability to make sound judgements.

How would I feel? I would rather win it straight up without a bogus call tainting my victory.

That kid didnt do anything wrong. All he did was fight like heck to help his team have a chance to win. And then he did a very human thing. He was actually happy for his team when he hugged his team mate. I bet that ref never played a down in his life. It was a judgement call and he used bad judgement.

There is a big difference in acting like a fool and taunting an opponent when you score and showing the type of emotion this young man did. I do not believe for one minute that this rule was put in to take that away. It was put in to take away the "Look at me" celebrations. They should know the difference.

When I saw the play, the QB did throw the football higher than I have seen, it was kind of unusual, the commentators said he did not toss it very high but there was a lot of hang time.

I am sure he was not trying to show up the other team but he was pretty happy!

What will be interesting will be is the same rule is put in place for baseball, when teams get key hits or possibly home run, they can not do celebration which will be interesting.

Look at the CWS and the celebration Fresno was doing, were they trying to intimidate the other team or were they just happy for themselves?

If the team is obviously trying to show up the other team with a in your face action, it should be called, but there will be and has to be some emotion in the game.

Coach May, I completely understand and "right back at ya!" I also don't mean to offend. I find that in most circumstances, the rules of a game exist for all. I didn't see the play since I've been coaching a lot lately both in golf and my daughter's softball team. As I've often said, "Common sense is uncommon." I can't argue with any of your points.

I have a general knowladge of football but not the real fine points. Is it harder to block an extra point from the normal spot after a touchdown than it is from where the ball was placed after the penalty? Did BYU win the game by blocking the extra point or did Washington loose the game due to a bad penalty?

Ok here are my thoughts since I started this and then I'm going to bed.

Coach May I totally appreciate what you put - especially about the speeding - but I'm going to have respectfully disagree with you to a degree.

Personally I don't like the call and didn't see it as such a big deal but it's also not the refs fault either. The blame lies with the NCAA and creating the rule.

Taken from ESPN.com

quote:

But as soon as the ball left Locker's hands and went into the air, officials hands were tied, according to a statement from referee Larry Farina.

"After scoring the touchdown, the player threw the ball into the air and we are required, by rule, to assess a 15-yard unsportsmanlike conduct penalty," Farina said in a statement given to Washington officials. "It is a celebration rule that we are required to call. It was not a judgment call."

This ref has to answer to someone and his job is basically on the line over something like this. The NCAA told them this was a point of emphasis this year so that means they are looking for it. If he turns the other cheek then his supervisor is going to go nuts on him and it may even make him ineligible for post season. I'm sure this guy didn't want to throw the flag but it seems to me he had no choice.

Plus I think the player and Willingham (Wash coach) have some responsiblity in this as well. Did Willingham teach the QB the rule? Did he tell him "if you throw the ball up in the air you will get a penalty"? If he didn't then the QB is clear.

If the QB was told the rule then he is at fault for not having some control. If he scores and leaves the ball laying the ground - remember he was hit and fell and in one motion came back up and threw the ball - and jumped into the arms of his team mates I doubt anything is said or done. He had a choice of throwing the ball or not.

What about the block in the back that is 10 yards away from the runner? Do we let that slide since it doesn't have an impact in the play?

To be honest I am a rules guy - I love knowing all the rules because I don't ever want to say my guys lost because they didn't know something. I still got quite a few years before I retire but before I do retire from coaching football I am going to score 3 points on a free kick someday because nobody knows that rule exists. I want to say that my team scored because we were better prepared than the other team.

I'm basically playing devil's advocate somewhat and trying to present it from another point of view. Myself personally if I was the ref I don't know if I could throw the flag because it was such a non - factor and just take the butt chewing and made sure I tried to call a perfect rest of the season to get back in good graces but that's me.

quote:

Originally posted by gimages:
I have a general knowladge of football but not the real fine points. Is it harder to block an extra point from the normal spot after a touchdown than it is from where the ball was placed after the penalty? Did BYU win the game by blocking the extra point or did Washington loose the game due to a bad penalty?

It is somewhat easier to block the kick the farther away you get from the goal post. Reason is now the kicker has to put it on a lower trajectory coming out to get the distance. So in other words a longer kick will be closer to the line of scrimmage than an extra point would be. An extra point is about getting it off straight and up and it will go through with very little forward force.

After the penalty it became a 35 yard extra point / field goal. I'm sure if he was going in to kick a field goal he is expected to make it. So they still had a chance to tie the game up.

2709

Thanks. To the quaterbacks credit I did hear him say in a interview on ESPN that they had many opportunities to win the game before that play. I must say I was impressed with the way he handled every question with a solid answer.

.

Summer 2004. Norcal 18U vs East Cobb at the WWBC in Georgia. Semi-final game. Top of 11, I think. Tie ballgame. East Cobb kid hits one in the parking lot for a solo jack. Large home crowd... the fans go wild. In the celebration at the plate, the kid misses home. Norcal throws pitch-out, player called out. Now it gets UGLY. Norcal knocks in a run in the bottom of the inning... game over.

An umpire once said to me that when he sees a kid hit one out of the park, he, out of instinct, looks the other way and doesn't watch him touch 'em all... that the simple fact that he hit it out makes it a homerun.

Who's correct?

There were probably a number of you there that night. Sorry.... there was no great satisfaction in that W.

cadDAD

Oh... and I hate it when BYU wins at any sport. Bad blood from too many years in the Mountain West Conference.

.

quote:

Originally posted by AcademyDad:
.

Summer 2004. Norcal 18U vs East Cobb at the WWBC in Georgia. Semi-final game. Top of 11, I think. Tie ballgame. East Cobb kid hits one in the parking lot for a solo jack. Large home crowd... the fans go wild. In the celebration at the plate, the kid misses home. Norcal throws pitch-out, player called out. Now it gets UGLY. Norcal knocks in a run in the bottom of the inning... game over.

An umpire once said to me that when he sees a kid hit one out of the park, he, out of instinct, looks the other way and doesn't watch him touch 'em all... that the simple fact that he hit it out makes it a homerun.

Who's correct?

There were probably a number of you there that night. Sorry.... there was no great satisfaction in that W.

cadDAD

Oh... and I hate it when BYU wins at any sport. Bad blood from too many years in the Mountain West Conference.

.

A call going NorCal's way against East Cobb at East Cobb back then


If you look closely, the umpires are supposed to watch the runner touch all the bases and home plate that is why some good (or controlling) umpires keep the players away from home plate until the runner touches home plate.

Once we were in a similar situation where what the winning homerun was called back due to a runner not touching second base, his coach even questioned him if he touched second base as he rounded third base, but the umpire actually watched to see if he touched all the bases and noticed him missed second.

We are human beings gifted with judgement. I respectfully submit that simply citing "it's the rule" is hiding behind the rules and a cowardly way of not implementing judgement.

What is the intent of the rule/law? Only judgement can decide that. Enforcing a rule/law simply because it's written, even though your judgement shows that the violation was not intended, is wrong IMHO.

I would like to see you tell judge Judi that.

Some really thoughtful posts on this thread. Causes me to think a little harder about it and have some empathy for the official.

CoachB25 - Very nice post.

Coach May - Ditto!

But I still wish the ref. hadn't thrown the flag. Just the way I prefer the game be called.

HOWEVER...I can be selective in that thought ...AcademyDad - It was top of the 7th, score was 2-1, ED was on the mound (as I'm sure you remember...Homerun4's son and yours were in the field) and I was (and still am) VERY pleased the umpire called that guy out! (But I've never quite seen anything like it!).

I was watching the game on TV - and don't think it was an appropriate time to throw the flag. Of course, I tend to be a what was the spirit of the rule rather than a what is the letter of the law kind of guy so that may bias my thinking.

As an example, if a pitcher has a white R on his Rawlings glove I am not going to make him color it in. If he is wearing a white shirt under his jersey that is going to have to come off.

As for that game in East Cobb - I do see touching all the bases as a rule to be enforced - but am amazed given the reputation of the East Cobb events that anyone would call that one.

08

This play and the call have been quite the topic of dicussion here in my home town, where there are lots of Huskies.

Was the ref's hands tied, because of the letter of the rule? Perhaps.

Was it an idiotic result, totally contrary to the spirit of the rule that is supposed to stop taunting and excess celebration? Absolutely.

The problem, as usual, is with the NCAA. They took discretion out of the hands of the officials by explicitly defining what behaviors get flagged, rather than allowing the zebras to use their judgment. The rule supposes that anytime the ball is tossed in the air, it is excess celebration.

As Bumble said in Oliver Twist: "If the law supposes that, the law is a a**."

quote:

Originally posted by justbaseball:

HOWEVER...I can be selective in that thought ...AcademyDad - It was top of the 7th, score was 2-1, ED was on the mound (as I'm sure you remember...Homerun4's son and yours were in the field) and I was (and still am) VERY pleased the umpire called that guy out! (But I've never quite seen anything like it!).

Of course, the homerun never happened

I was trying to think am I loosing it by not remembering the play, but I think I was in AZ when the younger one's team won the West JO's and we came into East Cobb just after you guys left.

Back to the original flag, I also don't think it should have been called even though it is the rule, but it was the actions did not warrant the purpose of the rule.

Going back to rules that are in place but are called way out of line, I think in 2003 or 2002, before PG changed the umpire group that officiated the WWBA tournaments, NorCal was playing East Cobb in the finals and East Cobb had just put up something like 4 runs early in the game in their half of the inning, NorCal come up in their half and we are rallying back, bases are loaded and a NorCal player hits a base clearing line drive to right center field and runs start coming in, the runner at second scores with a runner close behind him, when the ball was still in right field and he made contact with the catcher who was in foul territory on the first base side, not even in the play, since the ball was not even close to coming back in and the umpire calls dead ball, calls the runner out, and send other runners back because he made contact with the catcher who was standing around and way out of position.

NorCal fans go wild, our GM gets tossed which was not unusual at that time, but even the head of the tournament comes down from the observation deck to discuss the call with the umpires to no avail.

I think the ruling was in Georgia you can not make any contact with catcher, I guess even if he does not have the ball, he is way out of position, beyond the plate, and not in the play. Silly ruling....

As you can figure, we lost the game or I would not even bring it up

I was a HS football official for 12 years.
For those asking about penalty enforcement in football (that may not be as familiar with football over baseball), I was taught 4 "questions" to ask yourself before you throw a flag:
1) Did a violation occur? NO, no flag...YES, go to #2.
2) Did the player gain an advantage with the violation? (i.e. Player A holds Player B, but Player B breaks the hold and tackles Player C for a 3 yard loss). No, not in this case=no flag. YES, go to question 3.
3) Did the infraction occur at the "point of attack"? (i.e. did the hold occur completely across the field when the runner was already 7 yards downfield). No = No flag. Yes = THROW THE FLAG!

If you had 3 NO's, you still had to ask yourself one more question: Was there a player safety issue (i.e. Clipping, block in the back, chop block, the late hit). If you had a player safety issue, you always threw the flag.

As I gained experience, as a "wing" official (the guys who works the sidelines with a coach barking in his ear the entire game), I always called one other penalty, the "obvious one".....the WR lined up in the neutral zone, the illegal shift, etc. I was then able to keep my sanity having to deal with that coach for a couple of hours.....

I am confident I was not the only football official who was taught this.......my point is that most officials in fact do use sound judgement and common sense.

As a football official, one of the biggest frustrations each year was the "points of emphasis (POE)" meetings prior to season start. This is where the "higher ups" decide officials need to crack down on "something". More often than not, it is usually something trivial.

I have a feeling this is one of those areas in NCAA Fball this year. Last year, in HS Fball, a big emphasis was the type of towel a player could have tucked into his pants/belt. Only white, no markings, only a certain amount showing, etc. The "higher ups" were worried about taunting, offending someone etc.

Without seeing the play, I can't comment one way or the other. If, in fact this is a POE, that official would have been graded down for not making the call (at least how it was described here).

Sorry for the long winded response, but I wanted to respond to some previous posts about how football calls are made/not made (the comment about there is holding on every play.....my 3 questions above hopefully explains WHY it's not called on every play).

This thread reminds me of what happened in Omaha a few years ago at CWS. A good friend of mine worked his butt off for many years to get the chance to umpire in Omaha.
First game he has the dish and there is a crash play at home... they had hammered them and hammered them in their pre-game meetings about call 'em out and eject the player... So it happens, and he ejects the kid... all heck breaks loose; they let the kid back into the game...
My point is the point-of-emphasis can make a really good official make a bad call he wouldn't have normally made if they hadn't made such a big deal of things.
I know Rice U. coach thinks they have meetings to emphasize calling balks on his pitchers...
I'm rambling now....
anyway, my 2 cents on the football call look the other way; baseball: if a kid misses a base on a home run he's out because i reward the other team for taking care of business.

I just wish some common sense would come into play in some of these issues. Yes, rules are rules. Nobody paid to see the ref decide the game. If there had been no call, there would have been no discussion here. Maybe that should tell us something. A ref should have the latitude to make a determination as to what the intent was. The NCAA doesn't give them any wriggle room.

As to the NCAA officials and refs who said that he had no choice.... Well all I can say is they would not have slammed him for keeping the flag in his pocket. jmo

No one would have said a word if he had not thrown the flag. The fact is they blew that call. Some of the best calls made during a game are the ones that are not called.

Bighit-
I agree with you in that NCAA has not given refs wiggle room in this area.

I also agree that we (the media, fans, us, etc.) would NOT have hammered the guy if he kept his flag in his pocket.

However, we really don't know if the NCAA/Director of Officials would have hammered the guy for not enforcing a POE. Also, while I doesn't happen regularly, I am guessing that the officials MIGHT have conferred on this call. I have seen a crew chief "wave off a flag"........

Do you think that just maybe the official could have said, "Look he was just raising his hands to celebrate the touchdown and the ball slipped out and went into the air"?

I'll tell you what, I've heard a lot more unrealistic spin coming out of this political season that we're expected to believe than the above explanation. I've always been a rules guy too but common sense dictates that some rules are just not enforced. Ex: Baseball rules state that the pitcher's pivot foot shall remain in contact with the rubber during the windup but most pitchers raise their foot slightly off the rubber when making the transition. For all the purists-especially umpires-please tell us that you enforce this rule.

Umpires, referees, officials are there to make sure that the game is played fairly and that competition and ability determine the outcome of the game.

Now that I have seen it on Youtube, I have to agree with the call. He did NOT toss it up or drop it. He THREW it into the air. These commentators are stupid too with their comments.

here is the link to a youtube clip in case anybody needs to see it again for more clarification.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ap6Kn0dkbyY

Let me pose this to you as for the penalty

Did he HAVE to throw the ball in the air?

Could he have just left the ball laying on the ground and celebrated without a penalty?

Did he go to far when he switched the ball from his left hand to his right hand to throw the ball in the air?

I always tell my players to never put themselves into a position to give an official (baseball and football) a chance to interpret what you are doing as something that could penalize us. For instance why take two pitches on the inside half and then take a pitch on the outside corner that is borderline. Or if an offensive lineman is blocking don't put your hand on the side or back of the D lineman because it looks like it's holding even if you are not.

I think the QB did just that - he put himself and his team in a position where a call could hurt him and his team. He makes the choice not to do that and just jumps into the arms of his teammates he takes the call out of the ref's hands.

Some have talked about knowing the spirit of the rule instead of the wording but where is that line that enough is enough? Is everyone on the same page as to when enough is enough? They're not because if everyone was on the same page then the rule would be written differently to allow the spirit of the rule.

Someone mentioned earlier about speeding - if you go 38 in a 35 why not get a ticket. I don't have a real good answer for that one but I do know I am very glad that some cops do it. On Memorial Day I was going to school to watch game film. I was doing 52 in a 45 and got pulled over. I slowed down and pulled over into a spot that was completely safe for myself and the officer. I had my info ready for him and spoke to him very respectfully. I got a ticket for not having my seatbelt on and not speeding. Him doing this for me probably saved me around $100 on the ticket. There is no way in the world he could have not seen me buckled up - he cut me some slack.

Don't get me wrong I am very grateful for this and hope it happens all the time but let's say it happens again (because I am stupid) and this time a different cop gives me a speeding ticket and ticket for not having belt buckled. I don't think that's very fair and it's wrong. Why can't I be cut some slack again? I'm going to be the same way - safe, ready and respectful - regardless.

In this situation it is a rule / law that is set in stone. This guy bent the rules to help me out. Who did it hurt? Nobody.

If the ref looks the other way on this one then he has to look the other way if BYU broke the excessive celebration rule (which they did when they blocked the XP kick).

Let's say he looks the other way on this and no flag is thrown. Then a BYU player after the blocked kick gets in the face of a Washington player and a flag is thrown for unsportsmanlike. Is this fair?

What do you tell BYU's coach when he complains that you looked the other way but carried out the letter of the rule in his case?

"Yes coach he violated the rule as written by throwing the ball in the air but did it really hurt anything? He was just excited. Now your guy who was jogging by the Washington player was just out of place for what he did."

Now is the ref an enforcer of rules or is he someone who makes rules?

All in all the fault lies with the NCAA for having the rule.

Then throw the flag everytime. Throw it everytime you see anyone holding. Everytime you see someone do anything that by rule is an infraction. And be prepared to have a penalty on every play of every game. If the refs / umpires are not going to be allowed to have any discretion and are not going to be allowed to use common sense then throw it every time. Let the games begin!

I will give one last example of discretion and common sense.

You see a car speeding on a rural road going 50-35. You stop the car. You run their record - no prior violations. The driver is middle aged man. "My son is at home alone and he just called me and said someone was breaking into our back door!"

Common sense "OK have you called the police?" "OK where do you live?" "Call him back and tell him the police are on the way." "Do not speed just go home right away and I will head on over there. Whats your cell number I will call you when I get there."

No common sense "Sorry sir the law is the law. If I let you go I have to let everyone go. You must pay for violating the law."

When officials are not allowed or do not allow themselves to use commone sense and discretion when calling games you end up with BS.

The QB made a heck of a play with 2 seconds left on the clock. He has worked all year , all his life to be in this posistion. And now he is supposed to just hand the ball to the ref?

What did he do that hurt anything? All he did was flip the ball in the air and then hug a team mate. It was not an excessive celebration "under the circumstances." If he had done the same thing up by 30 that would constitute excessive celebration. There is no way these refs would have gotten in any trouble for using good common sense in this situation. No way.

Its funny how people that can agree on so many things can disagree on something like this. But thats just one of the things that makes this site alot of fun.

I saw the replay on saturday night and was thinking of posting how you all felt about it before coach beat me to it. I hadn't commented because Iwasn't really sure about how I felt about it but after seeing the clip of the play, I think that it was indeed a bad call by the refs.
I think that was just a gut reaction by the QB who was obviously overcome by the moment and that happend often, even to those that get paid big bucks to play. That's the emotioanl part of sports that I love.

If he paraded around with the ball and then thrown it, you got to make the call, but that didn't happen. I'll bet you that the BYU coach was just as shocked that the call was made as everyone else was. These are still kids who wear their guts on the outside every weekend, give me a break.
And I agree with those that say let the players determine the game, not the officials.

quote:

Its funny how people that can agree on so many things can disagree on something like this. But thats just one of the things that makes this site alot of fun.

You got that right - it is a great place and we get to really see how people think.

Overall I agree with you guys he should have kept the flag in the pocket or pulled the whole "I didn't see it" escape.

I can see where he is being vilified for something that isn't his fault overall.

quote:

The QB made a heck of a play with 2 seconds left on the clock. He has worked all year , all his life to be in this posistion. And now he is supposed to just hand the ball to the ref?

Couldn't you say this about the ref as well? I know if my dream is to ref high level college football I am going to mind my P's and Q's to make sure I don't jeopardize my job.

Once again the real culprit is the NCAA for having the rule or not giving refs more leeway.

quote:

The QB made a heck of a play with 2 seconds left on the clock. He has worked all year , all his life to be in this posistion. And now he is supposed to just hand the ball to the ref?

What did he do that hurt anything? All he did was flip the ball in the air

He has worked all year so he can violate the rules? Is that what we're teaching here? Because you worked hard, this rule or that rule doesn't apply to you?

He didn't "flip" the ball in the air. He threw it quite high from what I saw. To me, that's excessive.

You win. The rules apply to everyone. The rules are the rules and there should never be any discretion allowed by the umpires or officials.

quote:

there should never be any discretion allowed by the umpires or officials.

I don't remember saying that..

In MY discretion that was excessive. Maybe the official saw it that way as well. Sure there is a rule about it, but maybe he considered it and thought it was excessive.

There was no need for him to throw the ball into the air.

Soooooo...What's the answer? Enforce ALL the rules, absolutely no exceptions or pick and choose according to one's discretion. One or the other.