English 101 at JUCO vs. Elite/High Academic University

I have a son at an elite university as well, but I didn't take Clevelanddad's post completely literally.  I think what his point was is that in many cases English 101, or other core classes are pretty much the same at a 4 year college and a juco.  For many kids the Juco is a great option, at a great price, and in the end they could transfer to a 4 year institution, and the degree is the same, whether you spend two years there, or 4.    I'm making a big assumption here, but I don't think the young man in the thread is considering a juco, vs yale or Harvard.  sounds like it's a juco or a couple of local d3 schools.  In his case it may be that the core courses are the same at the juco vs the D3 schools he's considering. 

I started this thread for people who are literal (myself included in that description) and have high academic ballplayers.  As I mentioned, I don't think that young man's decision is relevant to this conversation. 

I don't think most iveys take transfers from anywhere.  Very, very hard to transfer in.  The competition at an Ivey will be stronger than at a JUCO. But reading Canterbury Tales at a JUCO or at home, for that matter, is the same, and cheaper.  Most kids who choose iveys have the money to go there.  It still costs a lot, even with academic scholarships, etc.  

There are numerous reasons that kids go to Junior colleges.  With soaring tuition rates and decreasing wages,financial reasons are becoming more and more the motivation for choosing to do the first two years at a junior college.

I agree with PA.

To cite real world examples to illustrate my comment in the other thread:  After senior year of HS, the son of a colleague didn't get into his dream school, the University of California, which is elite by any standard.  Rather than attend the other schools he was accepted to, he chose to go  to JC for two years, crushed it academically (which he says was very easy to do) and worked full time as well. Last spring, he reapplied and was accepted to Cal and UCLA.  So now he is at Cal and on track to graduate not only debt free, but with a nice car & money in the bank and with the same standing as a 4-year Cal grad.

On other other hand I have another friend whose kid started at the JC with the same track in mind, but is still there part time in year number three and working at a health club. There are a lot of kids like that at the JC!

To repeat - if you're smart, driven, and focused on the prize, JC can be a great option.  But there's no question that  for most, the chances of getting a 4-year degree are lower than if you started at a 4-year school originally.

We have strongly encouraged our own sons to go to 4 year schools BTW.  To me, it's the best path. But it's not the only path.

Just remembered seeing this a while back.

Nice story about a Juco student's path to Harvard.

https://stories.santarosa.edu/shayla-salzman

Like PABASEBALLDAD, I did not take some of the comments literally, especially the idea of 2 years at JUCO and then transferring to Harvard.  But, the statement can apply to probably all but the top 100 academic schools and that represents probably well over 90% of students going to a 4 year university.  I really don't think anyone needs to spend too much energy convincing folks that the JUCO/Ivey route is not plausible, nor remind folks that if it comes down to a JUCO or an Ivey, pick the Ivey (unless you are simply wanting to improve on your first round selection).

On a more productive note, one does have to pay close attention to transfer credits and one's potential 4 year choice.  If you want to go to State JUCO and transfer to STATE U then they usually have some very good info on transfer credit eligibility.  If you go to State JUCO and want to transfer to Private U on the opposite coast, then sometimes it can get real messy and you go in as an academic sophomore and an athletic junior.  A more fitting expression might be "English 101 is the same at State JUCO and State U."

I don't think JUCO is the right path for baseball for any player who is academically gifted.Chasing a dream while dismissing reality is full of regrets. 

While I agree transferring from a JuCo to an Ivy isn't a typical conversation here's the number ...

Harvard typically accepts five to six percent of its applicants. Harvard accepts 1% of transfer applicants. In 2014 it was fifteen. In the 80's one year my cousin was one of eight transfers accepted to Harvard. He transferred from Brown after one year. UCLA is a top 25 university. They only accept 3.5% of transfers.

Temple would be an argument for the JuCo transfer argumenT. Temple (PA) is a quality undergrad college. But it's in no way a top academic. It's a much better grad school. If a kid is looking for a job in the area chances are there's a Temple connection in the interview process. Temple (part of the state system) automatically accepts students from PA county JuCo's with a 3.0 or better. This is a situation where JuCo 101 courses and Temple 101 courses don't make a difference.

I misspoke in the other thread by stating that the JUCO and elite school general curriculum courses were the same.  I should have noted that in many cases, the courses and teaching are superior at the JUCO because the instructors actually give a sh (rhymes with hit).  Not sure why the comment is a laughing matter when I specifically said the only thing that really matters is what does it say on your final degree.  

There is a snob-aspect out there in society where people look down their noses because they (or their kids) supposedly attend elite schools.  I attended a JUCO and at the end of my time there I was accepted into more than one elite academic institution for Electrical Engineering without any questions asked.  I know exactly what I am talking about.  The best teachers I've ever had were at the JUCO and yes I know that is anecdotal but I suspect it is true at many other places as well.  What's funny here is the snobby way this thread was started.  I stick by everything I said in the other thread.   

on another note, give me a resume of a kid who went to juco, played baseball, performed in the classroom, went on to a 4 year university, continued to perform on the field and in the classroom and I'll hire that kid in a heartbeat.

As has been noted in several other threads, there is a big difference in the quality of JCs, both academically and in terms of the baseball competition, depending on what area you are in.  And because the vast majority of kids who go the JC route live at home, be sure to understand what the situation is at the local JCs before you automatically assume it will be the best low cost option to get the core college courses out of the way, get recruited by a D1 program down the road, and save money all the while.

As several posters noted, the California university system is getting harder and harder to get accepted to, so there are some really bright kids like the one who wanted to go to Berkeley, was not accepted out of HS, and then worked his tail off to get there for the final two years of college.  Some of those bright kids are filling up classes at the local JCs, but then the baseball teams at those schools have a high number of D1 level players who did not have the grades to get into 4-year schools and they are taking up playing time and roster spots at the JC.  I've heard a number of kids around my son's program just assume they are going to step in and play at the local JCs.  Yet one of the best pitchers in his league from a few years ago only got to pitch 4 innings at the JC his first year.  I'm not sure where he will wind up next, but it is not likely where he thought he would.  Many of these kids dismiss the option of playing D3 or NAIA coming out of high school and then wind up at one of those after they are done with JC--if they are lucky enough to get the playing time to entice another school into wanting them for their final two years.

The same rule should apply to the JC decision as it does to any school a kid who wants to play baseball is considering:  if the baseball went away (i.e. injury, couldn't handle the workload, was cut, etc.) would you still want to go to that school?

I tend to agree on the snob factor. I think there are brilliant kids who will do amazing things in Jucos and at Ivies. I think there are losers who will coast through class and accomplish very little at both as well. Similarly, I think there are amazing professors who dedicate themselves to their students at both levels of schools. There's a right place for everyone. It's all in what you make of your experiences.

I'm also pretty sure there are snobs at both. Seems like a few of them graduated to this thread.

RJM, you are way off on the admit rate for UCLA transfers. It's 25%.

 BTW it's worth mentioning that the JC --> UC path is baked into the system. It's an accepted path and the UC's have an allotted space for transfers.  I'd assume that this is true at other elite public schools, but it's not true at privates.

JCG posted:

RJM, you are way off on the admit rate for UCLA transfers. It's 25%.

 BTW it's worth mentioning that the JC --> UC path is baked into the system. It's an accepted path and the UC's have an allotted space for transfers.  I'd assume that this is true at other elite public schools, but it's not true at privates.

I took it right off their data. But I don't want to waste time arguing about it. It's not that important to me. I was just trying to provide information.

Iowamom23 posted:

I tend to agree on the snob factor. I think there are brilliant kids who will do amazing things in Jucos and at Ivies. I think there are losers who will coast through class and accomplish very little at both as well. Similarly, I think there are amazing professors who dedicate themselves to their students at both levels of schools. There's a right place for everyone. It's all in what you make of your experiences.

 

I'm also pretty sure there are snobs at both. Seems like a few of them graduated to this thread.

I wish I could like your first paragraph, which is all anyone needs to know on the topic, and give a thumbs down to the second, which is a gratuitous jab.

This?

http://www.aim.ucla.edu/profiles/cds2.aspx#cdsG

JCG;

from the baseball "point of view" SRJC has provided a foundation for the following 1994 to 2004.

Three MLB players; a First base coach for the Chicago Cubs; a player Development Coordinator for the Cubs; a Pro scout for the Japanese Hawks; Assistant GM Texas Rangers;  and a MLB Promotions Director for SSK of Japan.

All above have graduated from a 4 year college.

Bob

PS: I have taught Marketing, Real Estate at California JC.

In general, JUCO's seem most valuable to students who aspire to attend four-year state schools but are not ready--academically, athletically, or financially. JUCO's re-open or keep open doors that students aren't able to go through right out of high school.

Many states guarantee transfer admission even to their flagship state universities to JUCO students who achieve specified grades in specified JUCO programs. JUCOs in these states are very serious about the mission of preparing students to compete in upper level classes at four-year state schools.

However, because open admissions policies require JUCO's to accept many students whose lack of preparation gives them no realistic path to a degree, students who are serious about using a JUCO as a springboard to a good state school need to provide their own motivation to excel.

Whether 100-level courses at JUCO's are the same as at elite private schools isn't necessarily a germane question: partly because the JUCO-to-elite-private-school path is so seldom taken and so uncertain; partly because the kinds of students who gain admission to elite schools often enter college with advanced standing in at least a few subjects. These students need and want some advanced classes sooner than they could get them if they started at a JUCO.  

Anytime you put together as many people as there are actively participating on this board you're going to get a very wide perspective of what is the best avenue for anything. 

Had I gone to a certain NESCAC I would have been 7th generation. I was not raised on "Will you go to college?" I was raised on "What's the best college you can get accepted?" I was raised in a "Bowdoin 1977" tee shirt and sweatshirt. My father had it specially made. But the out was he played football for Wisconsin before getting injured and transferring. For those who don't know I didn't go to Bowdoin. My baseball talent was better than D3.

Another person on this board may be the first person in their family to attend college. Or their kid will be the first. Their perspective is going to be completely different. 

I moved from New England when I was a junior in high school. I moved back when my youngest headed for college. My son went to a Big Ten. Here's the perspective in New England when I mentioned a state university ... "He wasn't much of a student in high school? Did he focus too much on sports?"

In New England so many people look down on state schools they will spend 50k per year to send their kid to Obscure Private U rather than have their kid have the "stigma" of graduating from State U.

I had a conversation the other day with a friend. He pointed out we live in an alternate universe. He said many of our friends and their kids live in an alternate universe. He said to ask friends what percentage of people in America they think make 100k per year. After they miss that by a mile ask them what percentage of people they think make 50k.

Presumably since this a HS baseball forum, the transfer in rate for JC's that is most relevant is the one where the player should go to the 4-year colleges he may be interested in after completing JC and see if playing baseball may be an option for him.  This is easy to do by going to each team's roster and looking at their player rosters to determine what their last school was.

A quick glance of some of the UC schools shows not a single former JC player on UCLA, two on Cal, none on UCSB and four at UC-Davis.  Even UC-San Diego, which is a D2 program, has only one former JC player.  So while the California JC system may have a good reputation and high degree of compatibility with kids transferring into UC schools after JC, for kids who want to play baseball, their odds of getting a chance to play baseball at the higher academic UC schools after going to a JC are extremely remote. 

There are always a few exceptions here and there (usually a pitcher who develops substantially as a JC), but the reality is harsh for kids who think they will have a better chance of making it on a strong academic D1 roster as a JC transfer than they have as a HS senior.  The JC coaches really lobby that sales pitch to prospects, but if the player has a dream school or two in mind, be sure to see what the current acceptance rate is on the active baseball roster.

pabaseballdad posted:

on another note, give me a resume of a kid who went to juco, played baseball, performed in the classroom, went on to a 4 year university, continued to perform on the field and in the classroom and I'll hire that kid in a heartbeat.

 

 

This is true, and I think we've had a thread before about the value of having played ball at higher levels when it comes to the job search.

It opens doors.

I had a conversation the other day with a friend. He pointed out we live in an alternate universe. He said many of our friends and their kids live in an alternate universe. He said to ask friends what percentage of people in America they think make 100k per year. After they miss that by a mile ask them what percentage of people they think make 50k.

I'm hoping you come back and provide the correct percentages.  We've got more bathrooms then we have people living in the house and my son still says we need to move into a bigger house like his friends have.

as an employer who never went to college I am not impressed with the name of school very often, I have seen to many worthless employees that are gifted and went to some highly rated school...I look for educated people (where needed but I am not opposed to giving a HS grad a chance that damn few others will) who interview well, have something on the resume that intrigues me, some way to quantify if I see hunger in their personality....full disclosure I am not in a business that requires the best of the best. I require the smart and the hungry. I think more privately owned businesses are like mine as opposed to the public companies. I guess it starts to come down to where you want to work and if you consider yourself to be an entrepreneur.

JUCO, D3, UCLA - I don't care - I want to see what you have in the tank to make my company better.

ClevelandDad posted:

I misspoke in the other thread by stating that the JUCO and elite school general curriculum courses were the same.  I should have noted that in many cases, the courses and teaching are superior at the JUCO because the instructors actually give a sh (rhymes with hit).  Not sure why the comment is a laughing matter when I specifically said the only thing that really matters is what does it say on your final degree.  

There is a snob-aspect out there in society where people look down their noses because they (or their kids) supposedly attend elite schools.  I attended a JUCO and at the end of my time there I was accepted into more than one elite academic institution for Electrical Engineering without any questions asked.  I know exactly what I am talking about.  The best teachers I've ever had were at the JUCO and yes I know that is anecdotal but I suspect it is true at many other places as well.  What's funny here is the snobby way this thread was started.  I stick by everything I said in the other thread.   

My view is that for courses that tend to have specific content that must be learned, your perspective is correct -- an engineering course, intro calculus, etc. The more a course is at its core just an exploration of ideas -- a discussion, really (e.g., English, Philosophy, Political Science, etc.) -- then the more important are the fellow students in the overall educational experience, in which case the higher end schools will tend to be better, IMO. "I pay the schoolmaster, but 'tis the schoolboys that educate my son" -- Emerson

Backstop22 posted:

Presumably since this a HS baseball forum, the transfer in rate for JC's that is most relevant is the one where the player should go to the 4-year colleges he may be interested in after completing JC and see if playing baseball may be an option for him.  This is easy to do by going to each team's roster and looking at their player rosters to determine what their last school was.

A quick glance of some of the UC schools shows not a single former JC player on UCLA, two on Cal, none on UCSB and four at UC-Davis.  Even UC-San Diego, which is a D2 program, has only one former JC player.  So while the California JC system may have a good reputation and high degree of compatibility with kids transferring into UC schools after JC, for kids who want to play baseball, their odds of getting a chance to play baseball at the higher academic UC schools after going to a JC are extremely remote. 

There are always a few exceptions here and there (usually a pitcher who develops substantially as a JC), but the reality is harsh for kids who think they will have a better chance of making it on a strong academic D1 roster as a JC transfer than they have as a HS senior.  The JC coaches really lobby that sales pitch to prospects, but if the player has a dream school or two in mind, be sure to see what the current acceptance rate is on the active baseball roster.

The hit/miss ration on D1 recruiting out of college is about 50/50. A kid being recruiting by a JuCo is sold on coming out on the side of the positive 50%. Often it's not the case. When a JuCo player is recruited by a four year he's expected to be a difference maker. He's expected to step right in and produce. Otherwise he's a waste of time and scholarship money.

Some kids who head for JuCo ball are just postponing reality. In many cases reality smacks them in the face at the JuCo.

2019Dad posted:

ClevelandDad posted:

I misspoke in the other thread by stating that the JUCO and elite school general curriculum courses were the same.  I should have noted that in many cases, the courses and teaching are superior at the JUCO because the instructors actually give a sh (rhymes with hit).  Not sure why the comment is a laughing matter when I specifically said the only thing that really matters is what does it say on your final degree.  

There is a snob-aspect out there in society where people look down their noses because they (or their kids) supposedly attend elite schools.  I attended a JUCO and at the end of my time there I was accepted into more than one elite academic institution for Electrical Engineering without any questions asked.  I know exactly what I am talking about.  The best teachers I've ever had were at the JUCO and yes I know that is anecdotal but I suspect it is true at many other places as well.  What's funny here is the snobby way this thread was started.  I stick by everything I said in the other thread.   

My view is that for courses that tend to have specific content that must be learned, your perspective is correct -- an engineering course, intro calculus, etc. The more a course is at its core just an exploration of ideas -- a discussion, really (e.g., English, Philosophy, Political Science, etc.) -- then the more important are the fellow students in the overall educational experience, in which case the higher end schools will tend to be better, IMO. "I pay the schoolmaster, but 'tis the schoolboys that educate my son" -- Emerson

2019Dad - Fair point which you, RJM, and others have made and which I agree. 

I am not arguing that the JUCO route is the optimal academic situation for our kids.  This is a baseball site.  People come here to find out how to best carry on their baseball dreams past high school.  My point to the young man in question is he can get a degree from a fine four year school (public or private) that will give him a fine career in the future and still allow him to pursue his baseball career. 

If he gives up the baseball dream to pursue the "ideal" academic situation out of high school, he'll will not be able go back and  pursue baseball at some later time.  With education, you can right the ship at a later time although that may cost more money. 

Backstop22 posted:

Presumably since this a HS baseball forum, the transfer in rate for JC's that is most relevant is the one where the player should go to the 4-year colleges he may be interested in after completing JC and see if playing baseball may be an option for him.  This is easy to do by going to each team's roster and looking at their player rosters to determine what their last school was.

A quick glance of some of the UC schools shows not a single former JC player on UCLA, two on Cal, none on UCSB and four at UC-Davis.  Even UC-San Diego, which is a D2 program, has only one former JC player.  So while the California JC system may have a good reputation and high degree of compatibility with kids transferring into UC schools after JC, for kids who want to play baseball, their odds of getting a chance to play baseball at the higher academic UC schools after going to a JC are extremely remote. 

There are always a few exceptions here and there (usually a pitcher who develops substantially as a JC), but the reality is harsh for kids who think they will have a better chance of making it on a strong academic D1 roster as a JC transfer than they have as a HS senior.  The JC coaches really lobby that sales pitch to prospects, but if the player has a dream school or two in mind, be sure to see what the current acceptance rate is on the active baseball roster.

Good points, but you left off UCI, which has several Juco players. Also you don't know how many kids wanted to go to UC's. For example, referring again to our local JC, I know from talking to his parents that one of the highly touted sophomores from last year had multiple UC offers, but prefered to go out of state. Another accepted an offer at a Cal State (which as you know is a lot cheaper and may be a better option academically for many) but he was drafted and chose to sign.

If I was the parent of a prospective Juco player, for me the more important number would be -- how many kids in each class move on to play baseball at any D1, D2, NAIA, even D3 after finishing at the JC? Even at successful programs it's a pretty low percentage. So it's no different for JC players than other players -- your academics should be the most important factor in your choice. The exception would be if you know that you truly are a top pro prospect and your college choice is part of your strategy.

2017LHPscrewball posted:

I had a conversation the other day with a friend. He pointed out we live in an alternate universe. He said many of our friends and their kids live in an alternate universe. He said to ask friends what percentage of people in America they think make 100k per year. After they miss that by a mile ask them what percentage of people they think make 50k.

I'm hoping you come back and provide the correct percentages.  We've got more bathrooms then we have people living in the house and my son still says we need to move into a bigger house like his friends have.

100K+ - 9%

50-99K - 31%

<50K - 50%

This is individual income, not household income. Those living in major metro areas sometimes have trouble grasping what people in smaller metro areas make. 

JCG posted:

Iowamom23 posted:

I tend to agree on the snob factor. I think there are brilliant kids who will do amazing things in Jucos and at Ivies. I think there are losers who will coast through class and accomplish very little at both as well. Similarly, I think there are amazing professors who dedicate themselves to their students at both levels of schools. There's a right place for everyone. It's all in what you make of your experiences.

 

I'm also pretty sure there are snobs at both. Seems like a few of them graduated to this thread.

I wish I could like your first paragraph, which is all anyone needs to know on the topic, and give a thumbs down to the second, which is a gratuitous jab.

Fair point.

I was wondering how long it would take for the word "snob" to appear. When someone comes on this site and says his/her son has 5 D1 offers, all from Power 5s, no one accuses them of snobbery, but mention academic excellence and people bristle! I'm the first in my family to go to college and I went to a state university by dumb luck. No way I would have qualified in today's world. My kids were born with academic drive, and my youngest decided that he wanted to leverage his baseball ability to get the best education possible. He loves baseball, but he is realistic that he will earn a living with his brain and work ethic, not a ball.

I know this is a baseball site, and just like there are outliers who come here seeking information about their son who throws 95 mph, there are parents who seek help with their kid who just scored an 800 on the math section of the SAT and wonder what doors that will open. I like that this site can service both of those types of families AND a kid who gets on and asks about the pros and cons of a JUCO vs. a 4 year school.

We all bring different things to the site and while some accuse me of being a snob, I hope a few of my comments over the years have been beneficial to others. I hope we are all using all the resources available to us to help our kids make this important decision whether it is a 2 year, 4 year or 40 year decision.

Agree with both sides!  Agree about using baseball to get education. But I also agree the teachers I had in two years of juco were as good if not better than those of the supposedly lofty private school I graduated from. I think there are a virtual handful of diplomas that make a difference. Notre Dame would be an example as the golden domers are a tight group and will hire other golden domers. And if you know any you know that to be true. Ivys, northwestern, Stanford etc will give you a leg up. But those aside the other 95% of schools I don't think it makes a bit of difference. If my son had a chance to go to Notre Dame I would strongly advise him to jump on it. Any of the other 95%?  Who cares. Go where your baseball future is best. And by the way no saying you can't do a juco for a couple years then go to a prestigious school. Just have to be careful about what may or may not transfer.  Bottom line juco is a great option for a lot of folks. 

Matty posted:

I was wondering how long it would take for the word "snob" to appear. When someone comes on this site and says his/her son has 5 D1 offers, all from Power 5s, no one accuses them of snobbery, but mention academic excellence and people bristle! ...

I know this is a baseball site, and just like there are outliers who come here seeking information about their son who throws 95 mph, there are parents who seek help with their kid who just scored an 800 on the math section of the SAT and wonder what doors that will open. I like that this site can service both of those types of families AND a kid who gets on and asks about the pros and cons of a JUCO vs. a 4 year school.

We all bring different things to the site and while some accuse me of being a snob, I hope a few of my comments over the years have been beneficial to others. I hope we are all using all the resources available to us to help our kids make this important decision whether it is a 2 year, 4 year or 40 year decision.

Matty, IMO, you are still taking things out of context.  No one is calling you a snob for mentioning academic excellence.  In fact, I think the vast majority (if not all) of folks here will strongly suggest to any young man that, if money and grades allow, go with the best school you can get into.

CD's point was that, several years after graduation, if you hold a 4-yr degree from a reputable school, there will be marked value.  But a prospective employer is not likely to care whether you knocked out some of your GE classes at a JC or actually took all classes all four years at said U.  You are still a graduate of said U with a major in X.  For many, this is an avenue that can make sense, whether it is for financial reasons, initial indifference toward a major, or a host of other reasons.  For many others, going straight to the 4-yr school is absolutely the best choice for them.  I completely agree with you that one of the great things about the site is that we all bring different first-hand experiences to share and offer up for consideration.

I think the "snob" sentiment is likely more tied to a perceived implication in your OP that going the JC -  academic 4 yr route couldn't possibly compare to the straight academic 4-yr route.  Yes, the Harvard/Yale reference was certainly a stretch since these particular schools are so far up the scale that it is a highly unlikely scenario.  But I think CD was just using those school names loosely to illustrate reference to academically focused schools.

Also, I think much of this discussion hinges on the interpretation of "elite" academic schools.  I have friends who have graduated from schools considered quite high on the academic hierarchy but they (mostly as football players) have shared stories of many classes that were absolute jokes.

I think the thread has brought about some great information, so definitely a worthwhile discussion.  

I have two sons playing baseball, 1 at an academic D3 and another at our local Juco. Putting baseball aside for a moment what I can tell you is that although a prereq at a Juco can transfer to most schools as a prereq and thus "equal" they are usually quite different in terms of intensity and demands. My Juco son's  courses in no way compare to my academic D3  son's  courses. Just the fact that the academic competition at the more rigorous schools is stiffer therefore the competition among students for grades and the demands from the professors are greater.  Even compared to the State U most Jucos have students's whose academics would not allow them to enter State U and many also have students re-entering after a time away from school.  The entry level curriculum reflects that. Now for a heads up student they can use this to get the GPA up to go to a better school or  enter with a higher GPA than if they entered a 4 year straight out of high school. We also have friends whose kids go to Cal State U and take summer school at the Juco to take a prereq where it is easier. With all that being said there is still something to be said about being part of a school community for 4 years that is lost when attending a Juco for 2 than transferring for 2.  There is neither a right nor wrong, just individual goals and circumstances. 

Swampboy posted:

In general, JUCO's seem most valuable to students who aspire to attend four-year state schools but are not ready--academically, athletically, or financially. JUCO's re-open or keep open doors that students aren't able to go through right out of high school.

Many states guarantee transfer admission even to their flagship state universities to JUCO students who achieve specified grades in specified JUCO programs. JUCOs in these states are very serious about the mission of preparing students to compete in upper level classes at four-year state schools.

Virginia has a similar program.  If a student earns their Associates with grades no lower than a "C" they are guaranteed acceptance to any state school (UVA, VT, ODU, etc) and all their credits transfer.  My daughter (a non-athlete) graduated from a local JuCo (Germanna) and was accepted to ODU where all her credits were accepted.

Her Bachelor's says nothing about the JC credits so its like she attended ODU for all 4 years.

Never say never

My son went to a JC one year and was recruited to a PAC 12 top 20 university. He was a starter all

three years and played minor league ball for two seasons. Finished his degree in four years.

He works in technology in sales and is doing incredible. His business and technology skills and ability

to present to CEO, CFO and others are outstanding. This is his second job since leaving baseball.

He likes technology and solving business problems for all types of companies.

His future is bright because he never quits. Remember first one to the field , last to leave. In 8 months

not one person has beat him to the office including his manager.

Sometimes kids need time to figure it all out.

As many things, it depends on the young person. Are they self motivated, do they have a drive to get to the 4 year. And as many have said, things get in the way, whether it is a 4 year or 2 year college. Work, Girl Friend/Boy Friend. There is a path for all, they just need to find it.

Some just choose a tougher one than others. And tougher may not be the 4 year school or the high academic. Decisions they make when they are young can follow them for a long time. So many employers want the candidates to have that degree. It takes quite a few years (sometimes Decades) to get enough experience that a degree no longer matters.

I was one who chose the tough path. I worked a lot of Sh#$%# jobs over the years. Now I am pretty successful. I am considered one of the best in my little corner of IT. But I worked Retail for many years, from cleaning toilets and rinsing Pee out of bottles. (remember when bottles were returnable, you would be surprised what ends up in those) I worked noghts and 60 to 80 hours a week was the norm.

I have always told my boys Get the degree, find something you really like before having a family. Because once you have that family, You do what you have to do, until you can afford to do what you want to do. I would probably still be in retail though if the company I worked for was not bought out and run into the ground. I left that company and it gave me an opportunity to start over. I was fortunate to have a wonderful wife who took up the slack until I could earn enough. 

I know this does not pertain to baseball. But I hope it shows that an education is important, no matter whether it is a JC or 4 year. But ther is always another path.

Kudos to any kid who is playing ball and making solid grades in college, KudosX2 if its an elite school or kid taking engineering/honors classes. I love to hear about kids being successful in college in the classroom. Most kids i know going Juco are doing it to be drafted or to roll into a bigger school or as is the case for non-athlete related college kids in my area, they enroll in a juco or another D1 so they can transfer immediately to Athens and go to UGA their sophomore year. 

2boydad posted:

I have two sons playing baseball, 1 at an academic D3 and another at our local Juco. Putting baseball aside for a moment what I can tell you is that although a prereq at a Juco can transfer to most schools as a prereq and thus "equal" they are usually quite different in terms of intensity and demands. My Juco son's  courses in no way compare to my academic D3  son's  courses. Just the fact that the academic competition at the more rigorous schools is stiffer therefore the competition among students for grades and the demands from the professors are greater.  Even compared to the State U most Jucos have students's whose academics would not allow them to enter State U and many also have students re-entering after a time away from school.  The entry level curriculum reflects that. Now for a heads up student they can use this to get the GPA up to go to a better school or  enter with a higher GPA than if they entered a 4 year straight out of high school. We also have friends whose kids go to Cal State U and take summer school at the Juco to take a prereq where it is easier. With all that being said there is still something to be said about being part of a school community for 4 years that is lost when attending a Juco for 2 than transferring for 2.  There is neither a right nor wrong, just individual goals and circumstances. 

I would agree.  There is not a huge difference in what is taught in English 101 at Harvard or at a Juco, HOWEVER, how you are graded on what you are taught is what makes the difference.

I have compared notes with two of my friends on what I had to turn in in college and what they had to turn in, they both went to higher academic schools with name recognition.  In a typical class I would have maybe an hour or two of actual homework a week, with 2-3 papers per semester, some hand ins...oh and my favorite, I got 10% for "class participation grade" a.k.a. attendance.  THEY both had near weekly papers on various topics that were pre-assigned by the teacher, night lectures they HAD to attend for a grade, and no bonus points for showing up. 

Like I said...the material may be the same, but how your grade is determined can be very different.

It is important to remember that there are a number of widely varying academic scenarios out there.  And each one is unique.  For instance, it is possible that it could take a student 10 years to fully get their head on straight, change majors a few times and finally finish up undergrad.  And then go on to spend 11 years in seminary taking 50 separate classes at night while working full-time. 

This is all a hypothetical scenario, of course.  But I am pretty sure that it could happen.