Epiphany at Baseball America?????

Rice is a legit baseball team so you can't call complete favortism to the East Coast.. It's not like they picked Louisville (although they have just as good a chance as everyone else to win)..

.
I fear we "coasties" will pay a heavy seeding and regional price next year for our obvious 2007 indiscretions...

...but in the meantime...

We got...

Big Ball (ASU)
Small ball (OSU)
Cinderella (Irvine)
The tough guy (CSUF)

....I say....YEEEHAW! Go "coasties"!

44
.

thanks for the heads up, I had to do the math on my fingers, the BA guy prolly did it in his head

I'd really like to say something gloatingly arrogant in tone...but in deference to my good friends on the East Coast and Southeast, I won't.

Instead I'll say...ZOT! ZOT! ZOT!

Next year the east coast big power conferences will be crying foul and the regional brackets will shift back in their favor. Persoanlly I didn't like having the possibility of facing 3 other ACC teams last year.
I like the possibilities. I would like in the future to see a reseeding of the 8 when it is all done.

I guess I'm confused...who WASN'T giving credit to West Coast baseball? If you look at the NCAA champs and runners up over the last 10 years, a west coast team has played for the championship 6 out of those 10 years. So, regardless of the numbers in the tournament, or in the super regionals, west coast teams tend to be near the top.

Plus, this is baseball, surprises happen. Let's face it, UC Irvine and Louisville were never supposed to get to Omaha as anything other than spectators. And, much as it kills me to say this...(look at the location where I'm posting from)

GO CARDS!

I think there are more important things to be worrying about than to be fretting the socalled "balance of power" in college baseball.


64 teams begin the action and the best teams at the time of the event keep going forward

Good enough for me

I cannot tell if Louisville is a surprise or not. But to those in the West, UC-Irvine is ABSOLUTELY NO SURPRISE whatsoever. And therein perhaps lies a part of the problem.

More simply put...despite fewer numbers of invitations to the regionals/super-regionals...it breaks down about like this.

Big West - 2 of 3 tournament entrants in CWS (thats 67%)
Pac-10 - 2 of 4 tournament entrants in CWS (thats 50%)

NOTE: Based on the initial regional and super-regional bracketing, this was the highest possible result that could have been attained by these two conferences. Had it worked out the way the NCAA thought it would...either Vanderbilt or Virginia would have had one of those 4 slots and Texas the other.

Those percentages are better (by a fair amount) than the other "big" baseball conferences. In other words, they proved their value. Those two conferences are as tough or tougher than any in the nation and should get more invitations than they do to begin with. Oregon State was our 6th place team...at least one of the two teams ahead of them in the Pac-10 (Cal, 39th ISR in Boyd's World, 14th toughest schedule in nation or Washington, 22nd toughest schedule in nation) should have been in as well. Cal Poly (tied for 2nd, 32-24, 5th toughest schedule in nation by Boyd's World) deserved a shot from the Big West.

Whats the reward these 4 teams get for making it to the CWS? They get to knock each other out...as they have all year long in their regular season schedules...just to get to the championship game. Given the track record of the West, they deserve better from selection to seeding to hosting to bracketing.

Since I can remember,(as I get older thats not much) Cal baseball has been regarded as a hot bed. For decades they have produced college power houses. In more recent years, other schools have caught up as have other conferences, but we should never slight Cal schools as they have a great pool to choose from at home and have traditionally done a good job recruiting.
As Tr says, 64 play and the best make it to the end.

quote:

by tpm: I would like in the future to see a reseeding of the (final) 8 when it is all done.

agree, & it makes so much sense it will prolly never happen

quote:

Originally posted by Bee>:

quote:

by tpm: I would like in the future to see a reseeding of the (final) 8 when it is all done.

agree, & it makes so much sense it will prolly never happen

You are right. Seeding helps the NCAA make scheduling arrangements to get those teams who will play first into Omaha so it will never fly. It's also helpful if you are following one of the final 16, to make your personal arrangements as well. So with that in mind it makes sense to leave the
seeding the way it is.

What is the final seeding?

quote:

by tpm: Seeding helps the NCAA make scheduling arrangements to get those teams who will play first into Omaha so it will never fly. It's also helpful if you are following one of the final 16, to make your personal arrangements as well.

if I remember correctly from last yr, to make advance reservations they had to begin on the eve of opening cermonies - none were availablle starting on the day of your choice

tho pot luck could be had mid-tourny as teams were eliminated there wasn't an option for advance resevations

I don't see a good reason that seeds shouldn't be shuffled after supers. it makes little sense from a tourny or fan standpoint to get to the final 8 & see teams that have already faced each other 3 or 4 times eliminating each other, when interesting & fun crosscountry match-ups are available

Just to play Devil's Advocate:

Could it be that the teams from the other leagues just beat each other up in the sub regionals / regionals and that left very few to move on?

Miss. St. knocked out Fla. St.
Miss. St. knocked out Clem.
N.C. Knocked out S.C.
There goes three quality teams and NC & Miss. St. meet round 1.


Maybe there should be a little more spreading the teams around more like the basketball tournament. I'd like to see the games played at a neutral site too.

Reservations were avaliable after opening ceremonies. We got in to one place on wed night, then had to shift downtown and back again two days later to wed nights hotel for the rest of our stay. We never made advance reservations but knew when he would be playing to make sure we were there on time for the game.

Being the number one seed last year, DK was shipped out wednesday am early. I am assuming those arrangments have to be made in advance as to where and when to send the planes? They also know who to schedule for things such as practice, autograph sessions, and coaches know well in advance who they will matchup with, etc. If things are reseeded, knowing the NCAA and how slow they move, I could see much confusion.

quote:

by tpm: Reservations were avaliable after opening ceremonies ... We got in to one place on wed night, then had to shift downtown and back again two days later to wed nights hotel for the rest of our stay

I should have been more clear re week long reservations at the same hotel ...
those you refer to were spot openings & cancellations from teams/fans expecting to be playing,
but not - etc

reservations for the week long tourny stay only could be had in a block beginning opening day - - otherwise ya hotel jump by availability

as for transportation -
all teams were there to settle in & work out before opening day ...
even so, if logistic/travel adjustments needed be made -

those charter jets ..

"have wings will travel"



they didn't use one or two jets to shuttle all 8 teams



no big deal

I am just giving possible scenerios why they wouldn't reseed based on the slow moving NCAA.
How about this one, teams that finished monday would begin play on saturday, gives time for pitchers to recoup?

If this all doesn't make sense then I say RESEED!!!!!

Who would do the reseeding??
The committee
Everybody would say that's unfair also.

Maybe after the Super regionals, They put all 8 team names into a hat and draw there names out for seeding.
That way it's the luck of the draw, and not somebody getting an unfair deal from the committee.

It should be fun.
EH

quote:

by EH: Who would do the reseeding??

sure, the tourny committee .. it's done all the time at high level tournaments

hey if all 8 national seeds reach Omaha the need for re-seeding would be minimal, but it would make for better play if teams were re-seeded imo

quote:

sure, the tourny committee

Uh, Bee>, does that mean, uh, er, uh, does that include no games in...(shhhhhhh...) Starkville??

ifdad,
the 8 national seeds are determined on strength by the committee at reg season end as teams they deem can not meet until Omaha - and then they'll match-up in the seed order .. 1-8, 2-7, etc

if some of the actual 8 national seeds get eliminated in post season it makes sense to re-evaluate & properly re-seed the 8 team CWS field - because that's the definition of a seeded field (ranked strong to weak)

example: in the #1 National seed's regional, the #3 seed (a relativly weaker team) could advance to Omaha without ever playing the #1 National seed -

as it is now they would be treated as the #1 National seed which is contrary to the whole purpose of having seeds

quote:

Originally posted by infielddad:

quote:

sure, the tourny committee

Uh, Bee>, does that mean, uh, er, uh, does that include no games in...(shhhhhhh...) Starkville??

I agree with Bee about reseeding.

But can you just here it now..."hey we BEAT the number one seed, we deserve to be number one".

Let me see, Who would the #6, 7, 8 seed be.
If I was the selection committee??

Who would be my #1 team?
Let me ponder that one. HeHe
EH

quote:

by eh: Let me see, Who would the #6, 7, 8 seed be. If I was the selection committee??

use the same rpi formula on the 8 remaining that worked on the 64 - then tweak if necessary

Some random thoughts...

Power shifts from year to year due to graduation and the draft... The West is shining this year at Omaha but...

Last year the ACC placed four in Omaha and I think even though North Carolina did not win it last year, they were in the best conference last year... That was last year though and things have changed...

If someone asserts that the best players and teams are in the West how far off can they possibly be? I see even Oregon State's line-up has many California players. California is our most populous state and probably has the best conditions for baseball. No surprise that many of our best players come from there. BTW - Oregon State will fundamental you to death and ironically almost lost a game to a dropped pop-up - go figure.

Many of the powers in the south are fueled from Florida but most of the Southern states produce outstanding talent. Texas like Florida and California produce many of the nations' best talent...

I guess the thought that occurred to me was it does not matter whether or not someone can convince anyone else which conferences or teams are the best - things change from year to year and so does the power ratings... maybe the ACC, Big 12 and the SEC were not quite as strong this year... maybe those conferences are dominated by younger players right now and will show more strength next year...
Maybe the best teams will always be from the West...

This much I do know, if your team goes out and wins like Louisville or Rice (which is one of the smallest D1 schools out there), then you will get recognized by the selection committee, you will be recognized by the pollsters, and yes, you can even win the College World Series.

CD,
Good post.

I am not going to get into which conference or which coast has the best teams, because I really do not know.

One thing I do not know and do not understand. 4 of the 8 teams in Omaha do not play conference tourneys (correct me if I am wrong). This means less games on average. For example, the team that I feel should have been in Omaha, Vanderbilt shocked everyone by not advancing. By the time they were elimintated they had played 67 games. This took a toll on their pitching staff and players in general. UNC pitchers look tired, it took them 65 games to get to Omaha. The average games played by the 4 teams from the west coach was 60 to get to Omaha. While there are exceptions, IMO, teams that do not have conference tourney series are at an advantage.

TPM,
A very good observation, and I would not disagree that the teams not playing conference tourneys are somewhat better prepared for the real post-season.
Could it be that the bane of the big conferences is that the regular season does not provide enough proof of a conference champion?
I've always felt that the conference tourneys with their automatic berths cheapen the regular season a little. Call me old fashioned, but I'm biased towards the old model of crowning a regular season champ and to that victor go the spoils, and the best seeds. Isn't that the way the pros do it?

The West Coast baseball teams have been getting screwed by the NCAA for as long as I can remember.

Personally - I am getting a kick out of watching it all unfold.

It is long overdue. IMO.

When I was a teenager, the University of Louisville would go deep in the NCAA basketball tournament year-after-year with seemingly a less-than-stellar record. 9, 10, 11 losses, yet they'd still compete and even won a couple of national championships.

Why? Because they played a he!! of a hard schedule. They were ready! While everyone else was beating up Cupcake U. by 50 points, U of L was going head-to-head with the nation's best out-of-conference schedule around. It got them battle-hardened and ready for the NCAA tournament.

Nowadays, the majority of western baseball teams play one heck of a hard schedule. They kick each other around the ballpark all Spring long...very few cupcakes on their schedules. There are almost no 'gimmes' in any given week. In fact, last time I checked Boyd's World 25 of the 30 hardest schedules are played by West Coast teams.

Along with good weather and a tremendous talent pool, the competition they face each week (like Louisville basketball in the 70s and 80s) is why they do so well over the entire history of college baseball. The records speak for themselves. Look it up!

I'll be honest...some of these teams from the West in the CWS are not my favorites. The truth is I would probably sleep a lot better if UNC or Clemson or Vanderbilt would win the darn thing. Lots of reasons why that is so, but I still do respect the rival West teams and I cannot argue with a winning formula. The simple fact, IMO, is that Vanderbilt was considerably less-seasoned and less-tested (55th hardest schedule) and overrated due to a couple of very talented pitchers (one of which was from California). They struggled with Austin Peay State and couldn't even beat a decent, but hardly powerhouse, Michigan team on their home field.

I have no idea how conference tournaments affect a team's performance in the NCAA tournament. I've read it/heard it argued both ways. I really don't know. They largely exist in order to make money as best as I can tell. I do know I am not a fan of them...in basketball nor baseball. Let the regular season decide it. But those tournaments haven't been around for 60 years, like the CWS has...and yet the West has won over 2-to-1 as many national championships as other sections of the country. This cannot be ignored.

The ONLY reason I am here to gripe about this is that every year...we (out here) watch deserving western teams get left at home while schools like FSU (60th hardest schedule) get national seeds with a cupcake schedule. Its not fair and we're tired of it. Oregon State was the 6th place team in the Pac-10...which means that 2 teams (#4 and #5) were not even invited. This deprived all of us from seeing Tim Lincecum (Washington) in this tournament last year and Tyson Ross (California) in this tournament this year. If they were in the ACC or SEC would they have been left home? Invite the right teams, seed the right teams the highest and let the chips fall where they may. Thats all I would want.

I have no disrespect, whatsoever, for the South and East. My whole doggone family is from the Southeast...but a level playing field is all that is asked. Just level the field.

Thanks for listening.

quote:

I have no disrespect, whatsoever, for the South and East. My whole doggone family is from the Southeast...but a level playing field is all that is asked. Just level the field.

After watching the Regionals, SR, and the initial WS games you can see a difference in the "all-around" make-up of a team. The left-coast teams seem to be night-n-day more complete than those of the elite power conferences of the SE and South. Maybe its driven by the time zones, maybe by NCAA influence, or maybe by media push. Whatever it is Justbaseball hit it on the head.

rz1 ...

quote:

The left-coast teams seem to be night-n-day more complete than those of the elite power conferences of the SE and South. Maybe its driven by the time zones, maybe by NCAA influence, or maybe by media push.

I personally think it is driven by the sunshine and blue skies that most of the left coast teams get to play in for the majority of the season. But then again, it just may be driven by the fact that we are all a little different out here from the get go.

quote:

Oregon State was the 6th place team in the Pac-10...which means that 2 teams (#4 and #5) were not even invited. This deprived all of us from seeing Tim Lincecum (Washington) in this tournament last year and Tyson Ross (California) in this tournament this year. If they were in the ACC or SEC would they have been left home? Invite the right teams, seed the right teams the highest and let the chips fall where they may. Thats all I would want.

justbb - I acknowledged in my post above that the West produces many of the very best players and teams. We can all create our own anecdotal evidence however. Just about every team in the country can run out one guy, and if he is on, can give the other team fits no matter who it is. Austin Peay did it to Vanderbilt in just one example. I don't think Vandy was overrated either.

Arizona State was rewarded with a regional and SR. Long Beach State and San Diego were both rewarded for their tough schedules yet both faltered over North-eastern teams that by your standards (inferred by me from your writings) had no business being on the field with them. UC Irvine, rather than complain about being stuck in Texas went out on the field and did something about it.

It seems like we are aguing about how the top teams are seeded and who perhaps the 54th through the 64th best teams in the country are. Not sure there is as much disparity there as it may seem. Just because some may argue the better teams are in the West (or anywhere else) does not mean they are so overwhelmingly superior they can just go throw their hats on the field and win - witness the upset of top seeds this year. I also believe that we can all find something at Boyd Nation's or Warran Nolan's that make us feel better about things.

Stats and numbers don't win however - good teams do. Right now, the two best teams appear to be Oregon State and Rice - one from the West and one from the South. To me, that does not appear to be an accident or by chance of seedings. They simply are playing like the best teams right now.

Regardless of your seeding or school location you still have to be the HOTTEST, not best, team, when it comes to CWS Time

JBB,
I am not questioning who is more talented and by no means because we didn't make it. I feel exactly the same way you do regarding FSU, their first half season should not have given them a national seed, but their wins did and so did their conference play. I do admit that the teams in the west beat on each other, but so do some of the teams in the east. There are some SEC and ACC teams who avoid tough first half schedules, but the NCAA gave them the idea it ain't gonna work like that anymore.

Besides I would never argue with you TD!

I came up with conclusion while watching UNC the other night, the team seemed to lack the spark. They looked tired. Coming from that same conference and being in Omaha last year, I understand that it takes it's toll after awhile. It takes some teams a lot more games to get to Omaha than others.

Why don't the Big West and Pac10 have conference tourneys?

When my son played in the Big West they had a post season tournament

quote:

Originally posted by ClevelandDad:
justbb - I acknowledged in my post above that the West produces many of the very best players and teams. We can all create our own anecdotal evidence however...Stats and numbers don't win however - good teams do....

At the risk of sounding like I'm arguing with a poster I have great respect for...60 years of CWS history is a little more than "stats and numbers" and is not anectdotal. Sorry I distracted my argument/point by talking about Oregon State.

quote:

I also believe that we can all find something at Boyd Nation's or Warran Nolan's that make us feel better about things.

Very true! But I wouldn't be using that as a point if it were say, 17 or 18 of the 30 toughest schedules. 25 out of 30 toughest schedules is statistically significant enough that its very likely a valid point.

quote:

It seems like we are aguing about how the top teams are seeded and who perhaps the 54th through the 64th best teams in the country are.

Well, just a week or two before the tournament field was announced there was a lot of question about whether or not Fullerton would even be invited. Guess those 54-64 spots are pretty valuable to us out here.

quote:

Arizona State was rewarded with a regional and SR. Long Beach State and San Diego were both rewarded for their tough schedules yet both faltered over North-eastern teams that by your standards (inferred by me from your writings) had no business being on the field with them. UC Irvine, rather than complain about being stuck in Texas went out on the field and did something about it.

Another sore point for us left-coasters. Look at the geographical map of regionals and super-regionals year-in and year-out. Very heavily weighted to the Southeast. And this year, if the NCAA had been right about their seedings and had gotten their way, the West would have had only two teams in the CWS (San Diego and ASU). Fullerton took San Diego's spot...Vanderbilt/UVa and Texas were supposed to have the other two (taken by OSU and Irvine). The West broke through and got the very most teams it possibly could have to the CWS (4)...if the hostings and seedings would have played out as the NCAA thought, the CWS would have been much more heavily weighted to the South with 6 teams...the West had no chance to make this happen. This is precisely the frustration that is felt out here. Hard to forget a #1 ranked Stanford team in 2004, hosting a regional (not even a super) and being sent #6 LBSU with Jared Weaver as their "reward." This happens a lot out here.

quote:

Originally posted by TigerPawMom:
Besides I would never argue with you TD!

Ah, its ok. I'm just trying to carry the torch for a lot of frustrated fans out here. Like I said, I don't particularly care for some of these Westie teams and ending up in a "debate" with you and CD almost keeps me from posting on these things...but it ain't been fair...thats the way I see it.

Did you get your phone call yet?

quote:

Originally posted by justbaseball:
Did you get your phone call yet?

Yup!

quote:

The simple fact, IMO, is that Vanderbilt was considerably less-seasoned and less-tested (55th hardest schedule) and overrated due to a couple of very talented pitchers (one of which was from California). They struggled with Austin Peay State and couldn't even beat a decent, but hardly powerhouse, Michigan team on their home field.

random thoughts....

justbb - we could have these discussions offline but I think they do serve some value The anecdotal I was talking about was pointing to Vandy getting upset as proof they were not a top team. I am not suggesting that San Diego or Long Beach didn't deserve to be there since they lost to Minnesota and UIC respectively. Sorry for the ambiguity.

Look - I am not disagreeing with most of your arguments. Lets be honest though. Every team has cupcakes on the schedule. Strength of schedule is an algorithm just like RPI and just like Boyd's iterative strength of schedule. We can make those ratings say anything we want just by giving more weight to some factor employed in the computations. The weight given to any one factor is subjective and at the whim of the algorithm designer. Long Beach State did not have a spectacular record but it seems to me they were given plenty of credit for the very tough schedule they played both RPI wise and tournament seed. Other teams who played tough schedules had little blips on their resume. They may have played great against the very best teams but every now and then lose two in a row to vastly inferior teams. Those things can hurt you come seeding time.

Do we want the computers to do all this? Did Wichita State truly deserve to host or were there other factors such as geographical diversity to consider? It seems right now that the human computers are siding with more teams in the Southeast as you suggest. The Northern teams have also been complaining about these very same issues.

The only time we know anything is when teams play on the field and even then it depends on who pitched that day. I suggest more East Coast versus West Coast matchups early in the season. Winthrop flew out to UCLA early in the year and I believe they are scheduled to play at USC next year. To help with expenses, maybe we could start scheduling bi-annual home and home tournaments between the SEC and the Pac 10 or ACC versus Big 12 or any other conference, for example. As it stands now, many of the teams in the South host teams from the North during the spring. Texas Christian flew out east for a tournament this spring and I think we will see more of that type scheduling in the future.

I still believe the majority of teams that ought to be there are there and are now indeed prospering there (in the tournament).

This post was mostly stream of conscious so please take that in mind

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
When my son played in the Big West they had a post season tournament

TR , Didn't your son go to New Mexico? Would that be a WAC post season tourney back then?

by TPM- "Why don't the Big West and Pac10 have conference tourneys?"

Not sure why not. But in light of your previous point about teams getting tired after too many games played, what good would it serve to have one? As mentioned here earlier many teams in these conferences play brutal non-conference schedules to prepare for conference and beyond. I say the regular season conference champs are worthy of the prize.

My son played at New Mexico State and they were in the Big West at that time