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error on infield fly call?

Just MeJust Me100+ posts
Summer ball tournament. High School summer teams largely sophmore to juniors.
High school rules. Elimination game.

One out. Man on first. Man on second.

Batter hits very high pop that f2 attempts to field about 10 feet in front of plate. F1 had also moved in on ball but f2 called it and F1 backed off. At least 10 feet between f1 and f2. F2 misses the catch, but touches ball with glove and hand. Spin on ball takes it into foul territory on the hop, f1 retrieves ball but cant get lead runner at third.

Ump signals all safe. Defensive coach argues infield fly should be called and batter called out. Plate ump says no, it would only apply if the pop could have been caught for sure and that it was unclear to ump if f1 or f2 should have caught it. further discussion from coach. Confers with base ump, doesnt chage ruling.

Now, we are talking about a high pop, with catcher camped below it after calling ball. Clearly should have been caught, was scored an error. r1 and r2b as well as all offensive coaches recognized ball as a fly, all runners held. It was only the spin on the ball taking it into foul territory on the bounce that prevented the pitcher from from doubling up the runners. Ball clearly fair for the entirety of its flight. Neither ump ever called "IF" or "infield fly if fair". Seemed clear to all that crew just scrwed up and forgot IF rule was was in effect, then couldnt get past their egos to admit same.

Hope this is clear and all needed info supplied.

What was the correct ruling??
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W Will1,000+ posts
quote:
Neither ump ever called "IF" or "infield fly if fair". Seemed clear to all that crew just scrwed up and forgot IF rule was was in effect, then couldnt get past their egos to admit same.


the infield fly rule is called by the umpire if in his judgement. from what you describe they probably forgot the situation because it is clearly an infield fly situation. umpires usually have a signal to each other before to alert each other that there exists an infield fly situation before a batter steps into the box.
D dash_riprock1,000+ posts
Sounds like the IFR should have been called, but it is still a judgment call - HTBT. Umpires can consider other factors, e.g., wind, skill level of the player(s), in making that judgment.

Just Me - Your comment about the umps "egos" is gratuitous. If they determined that the IFR should have been called, it would have been a very easy fix - just take the batter off 1st and leave the other runners where they are. If they determined that F2 needed more than "ordinary effort" to make the catch, then the call was correct.
Midlo DadMidlo Dad10,000+ posts
Sounds like they should have called it. But having not called it, you can't go back and "fix it" after the fact. It's a judgment call that has to be made on the spot or not at all.

The whole point of making the call while the ball is in the air is to alert the runners that they can hold without fear of being put out on force plays. The infield fly rule is, after all, a rule designed to prevent what were considered unfair double plays.

So once the ball has hit the ground and everyone is safe, it can't be called then. It certainly cannot be called to benefit the defensive team. The rule exists to help the OFFENSIVE team, though this is something commonly not appreciated since an out is involved. For the defensive team's coach to go out there and argue that he should get an out on the play is kind of silly. All his team had to do to get the out was to catch a pop up. He can't blame the umps for the muff.
D dash_riprock1,000+ posts
You certainly can go back and "fix" it. In fact, you must. If the conditions are there, the infield fly rule is in effect even if the umpires fail to call it properly. (Whether or not they eventually get the call right is another matter.) The runners are supposed to know when the infield fly rule is in effect. If they left their bases and were tagged out, the out(s) would stand, even if the IFR were invoked after the fact. Not a pretty situation, but that's the way it is.
Just MeJust Me100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by dash_riprock:
Sounds like the IFR should have been called, but it is still a judgment call - HTBT. Umpires can consider other factors, e.g., wind, skill level of the player(s), in making that judgment.

Just Me - Your comment about the umps "egos" is gratuitous. If they determined that the IFR should have been called, it would have been a very easy fix - just take the batter off 1st and leave the other runners where they are. If they determined that F2 needed more than "ordinary effort" to make the catch, then the call was correct.


Sorry if the ego comment was annoying. Dont think it was gratuitous however as I cant see why else they wouldnt have made the correct ruling.

(edit: actually, in retrospect I guess it was gratuitous. I am assuming correct knowledge of the rule and application on the umps part and I guess this aint necessarily so and thus just a failure to know the correct ruling rather than the ego thing. My bad.)


There is no doubt that the catcher should have caught the ball. His problem was that he failed to turn back to the infield while awaiting its downward fall so the backspin took it out away from him rather than back over him.
Thats really why I asked the question I guess, to see whether the high pop to the catcher was viewed/treated differently from say a high pop to f1 or f3 by the umpiring community. It seems from the majority response that you dont hold the catcher to a different standard of "reasonable effort"??
Last edited by Just Me
TRhitTRhit10,000+ posts
JIMMY

I disagree---the infield fly should have been called in this case with men on first and second---by calling the infield fly correctly the batter is out regardless of a fielder catching it or not and the runner can advance at their own risk

Please do not cover one umpiring mistake, not calling the infield fly, by compunding it with calling it a foul ball.
08Dad08Dad1,000+ posts
Years ago at a high school game I saw exactly that situation occur...

Umps had called Infield fly... Ball was in the middle of the infield, pitcher got out of the way and no one caught it... it hit the front side of pitchers mound, took one big hop back, and then dribbled over the first base line... Foul ball, batter got to resume his at bat... if one of the fielders had picked up the ball before it went foul, even though they had all missed the pop up, then it would have been an infield fly, batter out.

Still remains one of the most bizarre plays I have seen...
Last edited by 08Dad
A archangel10+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Midlo Dad:
Sounds like they should have called it. But having not called it, you can't go back and "fix it" after the fact. It's a judgment call that has to be made on the spot or not at all.......

So once the ball has hit the ground and everyone is safe, it can't be called then. It certainly cannot be called to benefit the defensive team.


Midlo, lets say you're PU,bases loaded,0 outs, obvious easy IFF sitch, but you or your pard forget to call it and defense turns a triple play. Are you going to tell the OC "Sorry, we didnt call it, all 3 outs stand"?
Midlo DadMidlo Dad10,000+ posts
archangel,

I assume in your example that you're saying the runners strayed off their bases and were put out by the ball arriving (twice) before they returned. I make that assumption because, if they were forced out on trying to advance on an intentional dropped ball, there is a separate rule that allows the umpire to declare the batter out so that the force would have been removed anyway.

As best I can tell, the correct answer to your question is "yes", at least under NFHS rules. Here's why:

1. Rule 2-19, the key to the rule is that the umpire announces the "infield fly" call while the ball is in flight, so as to alert the runners to the protection they now enjoy.

2. Rule 10-1-4 says that in matters of judgment calls, "Any umpire's call ... is final." Exceptions are cited when the umpire may seek aid of another umpire, e.g., with check swing calls being appealed to the base umps. Granted, not all such situations with which we are familiar are cited in the rules (such as fair/foul calls on HR's, or balls that may have hit off a batter's foot), and there are no examples on point in the NFHS case book.

I don't see where the umpire has the ability to turn back the clock in this situation and assume everyone would've been safe had he made the call correctly. There are many times when an ump may be thought to have blown one call or another and the teams have to live with the results. This looks like one of those times.

If you were going to grant an exception under 10-1-4, I would think you could possibly consider a call for the benefit of the offensive team, but for the reasons stated above, it would be absurd to call it after the fact for the benefit of the defensive team.
Michael S. TaylorMichael S. Taylor1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by TRhit:
JIMMY

I disagree---the infield fly should have been called in this case with men on first and second---by calling the infield fly correctly the batter is out regardless of a fielder catching it or not and the runner can advance at their own risk

Please do not cover one umpiring mistake, not calling the infield fly, by compunding it with calling it a foul ball.



TR:
It makes no difference if you call the IF or not, if the ball hits fair and spins foul untouched then it is foul. There is no compounding anything, it's simply calling it what it is.
Michael S. TaylorMichael S. Taylor1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Midlo Dad:
archangel,

I assume in your example that you're saying the runners strayed off their bases and were put out by the ball arriving (twice) before they returned. I make that assumption because, if they were forced out on trying to advance on an intentional dropped ball, there is a separate rule that allows the umpire to declare the batter out so that the force would have been removed anyway.

As best I can tell, the correct answer to your question is "yes", at least under NFHS rules. Here's why:

1. Rule 2-19, the key to the rule is that the umpire announces the "infield fly" call while the ball is in flight, so as to alert the runners to the protection they now enjoy.

2. Rule 10-1-4 says that in matters of judgment calls, "Any umpire's call ... is final." Exceptions are cited when the umpire may seek aid of another umpire, e.g., with check swing calls being appealed to the base umps. Granted, not all such situations with which we are familiar are cited in the rules (such as fair/foul calls on HR's, or balls that may have hit off a batter's foot), and there are no examples on point in the NFHS case book.

I don't see where the umpire has the ability to turn back the clock in this situation and assume everyone would've been safe had he made the call correctly. There are many times when an ump may be thought to have blown one call or another and the teams have to live with the results. This looks like one of those times.

If you were going to grant an exception under 10-1-4, I would think you could possibly consider a call for the benefit of the offensive team, but for the reasons stated above, it would be absurd to call it after the fact for the benefit of the defensive team.


The correction is there to fix the mix up. Say you don't call an IF, the ball falls uncaught and stays fair. Now the runners try to advance and are doubled up at their force bases. You go back and call the IF, call the BR out and the forces are now removed, so the runners stay. If the ball falls untouched, there is no rule against that. If you have an intentionally dropped ball the ball stays live. You are thinking of a non-IF situation where an ID ball is dead and the batter is called out. This doesn't happen on an IF.
F 3FingeredGlove1,000+ posts
MidloDad,

The Casebook does address umpire error in infield fly situations. It shows that the actual situation, rather than the umpire's declaration, determines the proper outcome.

7.4.1 SITUATION G: With R1 on second and R2 on first and one out, B4 hits a high fly to second base which could have been caught by F4. Neither umpire declares “infield fly.” F4 unintentionally drops the ball but picks it up and tags R2 who is off the base. RULING: The half-inning is over as R2’s out is the third out. The infield fly out for the second out holds even though it was not declared. The situation determines the out, not the declaration. The umpires should always declare “Infield Fly, Batter Out If Fair” to lessen any confusion.

and

10.2.3 SITUATION F: With R1 on third and no outs, B2 hits a high fly in the infield above the second baseman’s head. The base umpire erroneously calls “Infield fly. The batter is out.” F4 subsequently drops the ball. R1 scores from third and B2 ends up on second base. Does the play stand or is B2 out but the run allowed to score? RULING: The play would stand. Both teams have the responsibility to know when conditions exist for an infield fly. The batter-runner should attempt to reach base safely and then inform the umpire that his call was in error. (7-4-1f)

As an aside, I am amused by the instruction to a player that he should "inform the umpire that his call was in error."
Jimmy03Jimmy031,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by TRhit:
JIMMY

I disagree---the infield fly should have been called in this case with men on first and second---by calling the infield fly correctly the batter is out regardless of a fielder catching it or not and the runner can advance at their own risk

Please do not cover one umpiring mistake, not calling the infield fly, by compunding it with calling it a foul ball.


You need to review the definitions of a fair/foul ball OBR 2.00, and re-read the question from bb2win I was answering. There was no mistake in my post to cover up and the only compounding I'm doing is in my 401K.
Last edited by Jimmy03
TRhitTRhit10,000+ posts
Juts another case of ineptitude on the part of the men in blue and how they protect each other here in this forum---it should have been called INFIELD FLY BATTER OUT as soon as the ball was in the air and determined to be a fair ball. Good umps in this case might even call INFIELD FLY IF BALL STAYS FAIR so the runners know the story..

There is no judgement by the umpires based on which fielder can catch it--it is in the infield and in the air

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