error or no error

It is in instances like these where they should have a TEAM ERROR COLUMN

JMO

This is one of the many reasons why keeping track of "errors" rather than chances and reasonable effort expected attempts to evaluate an individual fielder is so outdated in scoring. If a player makes a half-hearted effort at a ball that is playable, the hitter is given an unjustified hit and the fielder is not charged with an error. If two players make unbelievable attempts at the ball and pull off at the last second to avoid a collision, one of them must be charged with an error and the hitter, who is on base because he hit something in some gap somewhere, is not given a hit or even credit for getting on base.

Thank the journalists from the late 1800's for the scoring system we have and leave it at that.

Some of what you say depends on the score keeper. I sat in a box with a guy from PG last summer and he was tough on the guys. Since then I have been tougher too. If he is the real world then they need to be graded like it. Now I am talking about Varsity level ball.

I've seen a dad score his son a hit and an RBI on a play which included a throwing error which allowed his son to reach first and the runner on second score.

That's why I pose the question intially. A simple pop-up should be caught and if not someone is going to get an error in my book and I usually give it to the guy who I think "should" have made the play, i.e. the first baseman on a simple foul pop-up just in foul territory and more than half way down the line.

obrady:

I agree with you completely given the method of scoring "errors" we have inherited from our baseball scorekeeper ancestors. Certainly, the scorekeeper that 'cheats' by giving a batter a double when two errors got him on second base is repugnant and should not be tolerated. Likewise, the scorekeeper that gives an error on a diving play in the outfield where the glove never touched the ball so his pitcher doesn't get charged with an earned run is equally bad.

My problem with the present method of evaluating errors is how it translates to the statistical measure of each fielder. The strict interpretation of the "error rule" [if we can call it that] penalizes hustle and all out attempts and rewards caution and more timid approaches to fielding a hit baseball. Can anyone tell you, by looking at the number of errors committed over the same number of games, who is the better shortstop? What if we were to look at two shortstops [of course this could be any position; I just picked on shortstops because they usually have the most errors in college and MLB at least]? College shortstop A is charged with 14 errors and college shortstop B playing in the same number of games commits 19 errors. Who is the better shortstop? Obviously the answer based solely on the "relevant statistic alone" is shortstop A.

Now lets compare fielding percentage. Shortstop A has a fielding percentage of .955 and shortstop B has a fielding percentage of .946. Not a lot of difference but still, all other things being equal, shortstop A is the winner. But what if you examine the number of assists, putouts and attempts and discover that shortstop B had 40 more assists and 10 more putouts in the same number of games. Knowing what you know about the discretion in scoring a hit versus an error doesn't it make you at least a little bit curious why shortstop B has that many more assists and putouts in the same number of games. There are obviously a lot of variables such as the opposing hitters may hit more to shortstop B's position than shortstop A's, or the pitchers pitches are more likely to be pulled by hitters on shortstop B's team than shortstop A's team. But there is another, and IMHO more rational explanation. Shortstop B simply has more range, quickness, speed, etc. and/or positions himself better against the hitters he faces than shortstop A. So, bottom line, what is the value of 50 more outs over that series of games if it will result in 5 more errors? You decide.

Each decision a scorer reaches in considering whether the play that just unfolded before him/her is a hit or an error affects everyone involved in the play either positively or negatively. There is no harmless decision when this judgement call is made. To be consistent in your attempt to follow the error rules as written is the best we can hope for. It seems to me that your are attempting to do just that and I applaud you for it.

TW344

After watching a alot of games for a long time - I can honestly say - who really cares?

Honestly - who really cares about some "error" judgement from some lounge chair observer. LOL
And when they ring that "E" up - so what?

Just play the game - and let the guys with the pencils and Dell Laptops do their thing.

Most stats are garbage nowadays anyway - especially with aluminum.

Like Dylan said - you dont need a weatherman to tell you which way the wind is blowing. LOL

Just getting tired of all the bs.

quote:

(fumble, muff or wild throw)

quote:

I read it to say that any play where a play should have and/or could have

You didn't read it right.

" which prolongs the time at bat of a batter or which prolongs the life of a runner,"

I still see it as an error

Think itsinthegame may be pretty much on target with his "who really cares" point. However, I do have a technical question re scoring on the following situation:

Runner on second with one out. The batter strikes out on a curve in the dirt that the catcher blocks. Catcher pops up and tags the runner, but the umpire misses the tag and doesn't call the batter out. Batter runs to first. Despite the fact that the umpire has made no call, the catcher doesn't throw to first -- probably because: a) he knows he made the tag, and b) he's worried that if he throws to first, the runner on second will break for third.

Anyhow, when the dust settles, the home plate umpire rules that no tag was made and the batter gets first base.

How is this scored -- E2? Doesn't the scorer have to somehow account for the fact that a batter who struck out is on first? It's not a wild pitch or a passed ball. Is the catcher charged an error for the mental mistake of not throwing to first?

quote:

...I can honestly say - who really cares?

Well, I agree mostly. But, in St. Louis, Tony LaRussa and Dave Duncan have an ongoing battle with official scorers at the mlb level. They are extremely bad. Continually giving hits when errors should have been given.

And, to listen to the offical scorers explanations you have to wonder how they got the job. Something like what Its just said, "it really doesn't matter, just play."

Well, to people whose paycheck depends on stats to a very large degree it matters greatly.

And, although I'm not a LaRussa fan, I agree with him completely on this point.

An error not given helps one or two players and hurts another. Either work hard to get it right or stop talking stats, because they are becoming meaningless.

Garbage in = garbage out.

quote:

An error not given helps one or two players and hurts another. Either work hard to get it right or stop talking stats, because they are becoming meaningless.

I assume an error could hurt a position player's fielding percentage and yet, not a pitcher's ERA but more times than none the scorekeeper helps the hitter by scoring borderline calls hits, from my experiences.

Good example, yesterday, in NC State/Wake Forest game the third baseman was not charged with error on one skip hop right at him because I guess official scorer thought field was too wet...well, this led to scored runs which really should not have been a hit IMHO and hurt the ERA of pitcher of record.

By the way, NC State pitchers wouldn't give AD nothing to hit.

Wake has Most Excellent team ! peace, Shep

Valid point here, an error

quote:

each misplay (fumble, muff or wild throw) which prolongs

It ain't that hard.

But, stats average themsevles out.

Remember, the home team is the official scorer and about half the time you ain't home.

itsinthegame:

For one, I care. The pitcher whose ERA is inflated because the scorekeeper calls errors hits should be upset. The hitter who gets a clean hit but the scorekeeper decides that the fielder could have got there if frogs had wings, etc., has a right to be upset. Does it affect the outcome of the game? No, of course not. Will it be the difference whether a young man is drafted or not? Highly unlikely? Is it wrong? Yes, it certainly is. If it is wrong, I care. After all, one man's bs is another man's fertilizer.

FormerObserver:

Stats average themselves out if half the games are played at home and half away only if we assume two things: 1) home teams cheat on stats and 2) they cheat the same way. One perhaps but both, highly unlikely.

TW344

TW

At the end of the day you and your son know what the "real stats" are so what is the big deal?

TW,

My son has had 3 errors recorded for him this college season - and he wasnt even involved in the play. LOL

They didnt even have the right number of his jersey. LOL

At most youth levels - most people care about it - and some people dont - and the game goes on.

When all is said and done - the player knows how he played.

I used to see kids hitting .600 in high school - but when you looked closely - you saw that they played against "Our Lady of Perpetual Losing" 6 times - and went 25 for 28.

Then - when they played against real competition - they batted .050

You see it all the time - whereever you are - so - at the youth level - I dont pay any attention to it anymore - I just watch the player.

quote:

1) home teams cheat on stats and 2) they cheat the same way. One perhaps but both, highly unlikely

Both.
Wouldn't call it cheating, but the bias is there.

quote:

Originally posted by Oak:
Think itsinthegame may be pretty much on target with his "who really cares" point. However, I do have a technical question re scoring on the following situation:

Runner on second with one out. The batter strikes out on a curve in the dirt that the catcher blocks. Catcher pops up and tags the runner, but the umpire misses the tag and doesn't call the batter out. Batter runs to first. Despite the fact that the umpire has made no call, the catcher doesn't throw to first -- probably because: a) he knows he made the tag, and b) he's worried that if he throws to first, the runner on second will break for third.

Anyhow, when the dust settles, the home plate umpire rules that no tag was made and the batter gets first base.

How is this scored -- E2? Doesn't the scorer have to somehow account for the fact that a batter who struck out is on first? It's not a wild pitch or a passed ball. Is the catcher charged an error for the mental mistake of not throwing to first?

I would score it a wild pitch, maybe note the bone head play, "when in doubt, or no call from the ump, THROW IT!"

We had a game that had a similar occurance. Two outs, runners on sfirst and second, the ball was in the dirt, the batter swung, the catcher jumped up and said "I caught it!" the batter ran to first, the catcher rolled the ball to the mound and started off the field. We went on to score three runs and won the game.

Score a hit on the cross-up (pop fly) play. I know I've seen MLB games where it was also scored a hit, kind of like a ball lost in the sun.

For years, my wife and I have kept private books on our two sons, and we've been really careful to keep it honest. I once took away my son's no-hitter on a Texas leaguer on the last at-bat of the game. It was close, but I felt it was a hit.

By keeping an honest book, we can track their true progress. My older boy is a promising LHP, and after games I can see pitch counts to batters, the side to which the ball is being hit, and numerous other things that help us (help him) improve his game. It's been a great learning tool.

Also, by scribbling notes during the course of the game (like an argument between the coach and the ump), if we're bored in the off-season it brings back great memories. And that's what baseball's all about.. for love of the game.