Ethics Poll

Not enough information. Did the teacher tell them they could work together?

How can the school prove they worked together? Unless they wrote essay answers that were word for word?

Don't know if they were advised one way or another. Knowing the kids, I'd say they were not told they couldn't or they wouldn't have.

If it were a group grade, the teacher probably would have put them in groups. I will never believe that they didn't believe it was wrong. They just got caught and are claiming ignorance to deflect blame and not take responsibility.

I know that I never had a group test. I think to try to lay blame on a teacher for not saying that it was not a group test is deflection. imo

Bighit15,

I’m thinking that how an individual views this issue is influenced by their age. It has been obvious to me that the younger the generation you ask, the less it is viewed as cheating. I am constantly amazed how morals and ethics seem to weaken in each generation. In my conversation with one of the kids, they said, ”…it was open book and open notes test. All we did was help each other look up the answers so we could finish sooner.”

My question would be; why wasn't the test given in class?

The last thing I'm going to do is blame the teacher for a student screwing up.

However, the way the question was originally phrased left some room for intrepretation.

What is the point of an open book test anyway? It surely doesn't test what the student actually knows.

common sense rules here. I am a teacher if I were to give such an assignment do you really think this was not going to happen? Give me a break.

quote:

The kids were given a take home, open notes/book test

Uhh.......in my class this is called a worksheet and worth very few points. When I give a test then it will be a test and challenging. Plus I will be standing in the front of the class with an evil eye for the ones who like to look around.

While I would like to tell them "take this home and work on it yourself" and know that this did happen I would be very naieve. I cannot control what they do outside the classroom so I am not going to give them something I want done specifically.

If I give them something outside of class and they do it together then so be it. Chances are it won't be worth a whole lot of points.

The reason why kids think this is acceptable goes back to group work in the lower grades. They are brought up working in groups and collaborating. Now when they get into a setting of independence they don't see the moral dillemma here.

quote:

They were then turned in by another student for cheating.

I guess he or she is right up there on the popularity chart

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I guess he or she is right up there on the popularity chart

Have to be careful myself not to "shoot the messenger" but I hope the teacher looked at the motives for turning in the group of students. Most schools have honor codes that hold the "cheaters" and those who know about the cheating accountable. Sometimes the motives are pure, and sometimes they are sour grapes.

Take home tests are usually "review" for harder and more complex exams. Sounds like this group used it as a "study group" situation. I hope the school system treats the kids and the situation fairly and the teacher finds an additional way to be sure the kids are accountable for individual knowledge and work.

I always thought teachers gave these kind of tests so everyone could get a high score. The previous tests must of had low scores.

I am a high school assistant principal. I think that if this assignment was going to count very much, it should not have been given as a take home assignment. If it was an important grade it is important to control the test taking environment as much as possible. The teacher voluntarily gave that up by sending it home. Homework is important, too, but it shouldn't be the major part of a student's grade. There is too much variance in the circumstances under which homework is done or not done. Some parents stay after the kids to see that it is done, some kids are unsupervised. Heck, some parents just do the homework themselves. If it is a major grade, control the environment. If it's not a major grade, then it's a battle that even if you wantto fight it, and win it, it's just not worth it.

This is a great question and dialogue. I do professional training & dvelopment, and can assure you that there are significant differences between the ethical standards of the 20-something's, 30-something's, 40-somethings's, and above.

Simple but true ... If the teacher stated that this was a test, and did not specify that students could collaborate on the test, then the kids knew they were out of bounds.

Now, a teacher who understands the 5 basic human weaknesses CLIFT (carelessness, laziness, indifference, forgetfullness & temptation) should have known he/she was laying the ground work for this to hapen. However, this does not excuse the kids trying to take a shortcut to beat the system.

Seems like a number of bad choices were made in this situation. If the kids are to be punished, maybe the best answer is to have them write a book report on Jon Huntsman's book Winners Never Cheat.

A great read by the way ...

If there was no express prohition to work as a group, I think it shows intelligence use of resources. The real issue is did they learn from the project. Working as a group can be very educational as long as they all participated.

I was a teacher and my wife is a teacher. My Mom is a retired teacher and my Dad is a retired Superintendent. We have about 30 school related family members on both side. We would ALL laugh at any thought of a take home test being completed soley by the student. Take home tests are for review only and should be treated as homework. They are used to prepare the kids for a real test. It shouldn't matter how they got the information as long as they learned SOMETHING that will help them out when the real test is taken. Even if it only gives the students some familiarity about how the test will look to relieve test anxiety.
Anything that is taken home is out of the teachers control and anything goes. Kids will get help from students, siblings, parents, internet, etc...

Tests involve supervision. Even online courses need a proctor. Without rules and supervision it can't be cheating unless the teacher told the students to do the work on their own. And if the teacher did that, then he/she is a moron.

I asked someone I know who is the Department Chair for the Department of Teaching and Learning at a large state university. This was their response to the limited information given.

Below is the response from the Professor:

If the instructor did not specifically tell students not to discuss the test, then it is not cheating.

As an instructor who has given take home quizzes and exams, I have found that I must be specific with the directions for what is and is not acceptable. Let me add a few points:

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I give students a take home assignment. The students complete the assignment by googling the information on the internet and writing it down. Have they cheated? No. They completed the assignment within guidelines. Unfortunately, they have usually also not learned anything. So, there is no educational value to the assignment.
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I give students a take home test. I tell students it is open book and open note. Does this also mean that it is open to other resources like the internet? Like their parents? Unless I have provided specific directions not to use these resources, I can not keep them from doing so. Would they have been turned in for cheating if this were the case? Probably not.

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Also, would an answer copied directly (word for word) from the text also have been a violation? Plaigarism? Once again, probably not.
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At the university level, unless students' answers are word for word to one another, or you have provided specific directions that prohibit them from discussion of a test or assignment, a word of mouth accusation of cheating would not be defensable and the students could overturn such a decision or grade if taken to the university's ombudsman process.
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If the goal of the education process is to help students build knowledge, then the assessment process should contribute to this goal. If the students discussed the test, but each wrote individual responses, they probably learned as much or more than if they had just looked for the answer in their notes or text and copied that answer. The goal of the education process has been met.

It may seem like I am skirting the question of ethics here. However, as a teacher I have had to face this issue many times, and ethically, it is my responsibility to help students understand and grow their subject content knowledge. Ethically, it is my responsibility to be specific with the expectations and the parameters of the assignment. I can not penallize them for something I have not said and just "assume" they know. And, if the students used resources at their disposal, that I did not specifically direct them not to, then they have not only learned content, but they have learned another valuable, even though unintended lesson, that in the real world, we use references and colleagues when we have a problem to solve.

With the availability of the internet, chat rooms, discussion boards, and other media tools kids have at their fingertips I see no problem discussing the take home test with classmates if it is "take home". Any teacher who gives a student a take home test and expects them to shut the door, turn off the computer, and put blinders on needs to open their eyes to todays world.

As a teacher I think it would be great if the students got together a discussed the test. Many times the retention and learning values of "students teaching students" is greater than what the classroom teacher offers.

sometimes tests can help you learn instead of testing what you know.

open book tests force the student to find the correct answer. The more time you spend searching the answer the greater reward for learning.

I think it all depends on the rules the instructor put on the students. But, the instructor has to have some grasp on reality. Come on, if I leave the toilet lid up, I can't blame the dog if he drinks out of it.

You could, in a way, compare this to the 23 Florida State football athletes that collaborated on a take home internet test last Fall. Evidentally, the NCAA found it unethical to collaborate on the test regardless of whether it was take home or open book.

Look at it, when the instructor made the test a take home test, you could have parents, other students, groups and even the actual student have input into the test.

I heard a story awhile ago where there was a college class that was taking a test, the instructor had color coated the individual test sheets; they were instructed not to sit by anyone who had the same color sheet. Well, the class as a whole did very poorly, one of the students did much better than those around him, turns out he really did not know his subject matter, but actually cheated off of some of the students around him, but the problem was the other students did very poorly on the test, then comes the question how he did so well, well the test were of course different and he was too dumb to know that, by copying what the other students answered, he happen to get the right answers on his version!

Bottom line, if the teacher is thinking that the student are not going to use all of his resources to obtain the answer to a take home open book/notes/resources test, the instructor is mistaken, it is good that students are working together (should not be cheating) to learn the subject matter or at least learn how to find answers, if the instructor gave instructions to do it on their own, then they truly cheated, but if the instructor was looking for the student to find the answers, then the instructor got the results.

If the instructor wanted to test their actual knowledge then the instructor should have done it in a classroom setting that was tightly controlled.

Come on! What did they expect was going to happen? You give them a test to take home? Now you want to act like you never thought for one minute anyone would get together to make a better score? If it was that important why not give the test in the classroom?

Look I know it's all semantics here but if you give them something to take home - regardless of the instructions - it's NOT a test. It's an assignment and myself personally if it goes home I don't care how they get the answers as long as they learn something.

If I want to measure what they know or how much they have learned (which is what a test is - a measuring tool) then it stays in the classroom and I watch them like a hawk. I probably still don't catch everyone cheating but at least I am getting a true sense of what they learned.

This might be a terrible example but look at it like this. You study the drivers test study book and learn the laws. You know that if you go over 55 mph you are breaking the law and are subject to getting a ticket. Now you get pulled over for doing 63 in a 55. The cop comes up and talks to you and gives you a warning "don't speed again". Does he mean the rest of your trip, rest of the week or month or maybe the rest of your life. The next thing you do when you leave him is go over the speed limit. This cop is a figure of authority and he gave you direct instruction on what to do. You didn't follow it but the only way he knows if you follow the directions is to follow you around to see if you learned your lesson.

Same thing with kids - if I give a test out and tell them not to help each other then I better be ready to drive all over creation to check on them to make sure they are following the rules. I can't rely on Johnny telling me Billy and Susie cheated.

If you give a test to take home and expect no cheating then you are asking for trouble. Would it be nice if everyone followed the rules - yes but it's not going to happen.

quote:

Originally posted by Lefty's Dad:
Heck, some parents just do the homework themselves.

For homework a couple of years ago my son had to build a replica Lighthouse of Alexandria and write an accompanying essay. He did a great job. The next week I asked him about his grade. He said it was third best to Mrs. Smith's and Mr. Jones' project. You can't fool the kids. They can tell when the parents do the project for their kids. I'm surprised teachers don't challenge these situations.

I'll tell you who has to be expelled, the teacher!

It's not unusual for teachers or profs to give open book tests, with notes. The teacher is looking for the student who read and studies the material, paid attention in class and knew just where to find the answers (if they needed to do that). If you didn't do what you were supposed to do, you won't get a better grade because the book is open.

Where specific instructions given? What's the issue, di they get together and helped each other? Need some more facts.

This is what I meant in the post where the principal made rules regarding D and F's and no sports. Make the kids acountable, but make the ones teaching them also.

Good post Big.

JMO.

Hey look, let's be realistic.

"TAKE HOME" is use all resources. If it is meant to test their immediate knowledge, give the test in class and monitor the students. If it is take home, see how motivated they are to get 100%.

I don't see any confusion or "trust factor" here. Take the test home and see if you are NOT lazy enough to get any wrong.

I see no other take?

fsm that is exactly how I see it as well. Thats what I always figured when a teacher sent work home for me to do. Use whatever resources I could find to get it done. If your so concerned then give the test in class and monitor the students while they take it.

quote:

Originally posted by baseballtoday:
sometimes tests can help you learn instead of testing what you know.

open book tests force the student to find the correct answer. The more time you spend searching the answer the greater reward for learning.

Great teacher at our school returned tests to students than gave extra credit if the student looked up and corrected their wrong answers... They really learned the material...and thats what its all about

Update: The story was reported that one of the individuals was saying that they took the test for the others and was paid for it. Was that person joking or was it a down right fabrication is unclear. The administration is reporting that they could not verify that accusation, but the kids did admit that one person advised the others where to find the answers that they didn’t readily know where to locate the answer. At least 4 persons, one who wasn’t in the class but was present during the test, provided the same testimony. It is reported that at least one of the players was dismissed from the baseball team for this incident, no hard confirmation on that report.

In what I see as a classless move, the coach, who hasn't spoken to the player as of this date, announced it, naming the player in a team meeting.

Sounds like a mess all the way around. Doing someone's homework (for pay, no less) is an entirely different story than working together as a group. I'd like my vote back please, because if that is indeed what happened, then it's clearly cheating and there should be consequences.

As for the coach announcing it in a team meeting - so what? You think the kids aren't going to find out eventually? Better to discuss it as a team than to find out in the hallway. You say the coach hasn't talked to the player - is this your son? If not, how do you know for sure he hasn't talked to the player?

m3s,

I know several kids in the program and yes one of them is involved.

I'll restate the issue again for you: Someone reported that a person took the test and was paid for it, which according to the parties involved and one who wasn't, DIDN'T happen.

Are you telling me that you think it's OK to talk about someone BEFORE confronting them first? Yea, we all know that everyone will find out, but I would want to know the story, see what proof exists before making a decision much less announcing it to the school.

You said "it is reported that at least one of the players was dismissed from the baseball team". I assumed dismissed and reported by administration, which meant the coach had nothing to do with the decision and was simply informing the team. I would have no problem with that.

Now if you're saying the coach decided to dismiss the player without first talking to him, that's a different situation.

Somehow though it seems like the story keeps changing as we go along here - now you're saying it was an uninvolved party who reported that there was payment for the test taking help - in the prior post it was one of the offenders who said he was paid to take the test. In the original post it was basically a study group. Either you're not doing a great job of explaining the situation or I'm not doing a great job of listening.

I will say this - I've learned from things that have happened involving my own kids as well as the kids I work with that rarely do they get the whole story straight. If you're hearing this from the players, there's very likely some details missing.

It all depends whether you are a moral relativist or moral traditionalist. The moral relativist will say no..and pose a number of equivalencies. The moral traditionalist's approach will assume the the "individual" assumes responsibility for his/her behavior and has been taught the unequivocal difference between right and wrong. In either case the child is the one who suffers in this environment because the element of inequality of results usually reflects poorly as a social consequence on those who abide by the rules especially in a corrupt system as many have learned to operate within the moral relativist public educational system.
JMO

quote:

Originally posted by BBkaze:
It all depends whether you are a moral relativist or moral traditionalist. The moral relativist will say no..and pose a number of equivalencies. The moral traditionalist's approach will assume the the "individual" assumes responsibility for his/her behavior and has been taught the unequivocal difference between right and wrong. In either case the child is the one who suffers in this environment because the element of inequality of results usually reflects poorly as a social consequence on those who abide by the rules especially in a corrupt system as many have learned to operate within the moral relativist public educational system.
JMO

Uhhhhhhh.........I'm an Aquarius........

quote:

Originally posted by BBkaze:
It all depends whether you are a moral relativist or moral traditionalist. The moral relativist will say no..and pose a number of equivalencies. The moral traditionalist's approach will assume the the "individual" assumes responsibility for his/her behavior and has been taught the unequivocal difference between right and wrong. In either case the child is the one who suffers in this environment because the element of inequality of results usually reflects poorly as a social consequence on those who abide by the rules especially in a corrupt system as many have learned to operate within the moral relativist public educational system.
JMO

After close and careful consideration of what you have written, I have come to the conclusion that you done bumped yore head!

quote:

Uhhhhhhh.........I'm an Aquarius........

Now that is funny!