Etiquette regarding showcase teams?

I would venture to guess the right thing to do would be to inform your previous team of your intent to leave. I would recommend doing it as early as possible to allow them to find another player to fill the spot.

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Originally posted by redbird5:
I would venture to guess the right thing to do would be to inform your previous team of your intent to leave. I would recommend doing it as early as possible to allow them to find another player to fill the spot.

RedBird gives good advice-- but that is good advice for our young men (and women) to learn as a proper way to act in life.

That said, don't expect the same from the teams. From what I saw for over ten years, there is no"proper etiquette" with other coaches pursuing kids. There are some fine coaches/ organizations but alot are not. Make sure the team you are moving to is being upfront with your son. As many as not, will promise playing time and recruit right over your son next tournament.

If a committment to a team is made it should be honored up to the point it no longer makes sense for that team or for that player. Prep is right in that there are teams and organizations out there that will do or say anything to get your son on their team, but if they see someone better you can bet they'll find a way to drop you like a brick. I think though that most have integrity and usually are committed to the players they pick up.

If you leave one team for another there for sure will be some hard feelings on the losing team. Mostly from parents, sometimes even from the players, but rarely the coaches. We left team A to go to team B and parents on team A were not happy at all. Felt we abandoned them and their players. At your son's age, I'm assuming he's pre-college, the best place for him to be is with the right coaches and with the best opportunity for him to develope and showcase his skills.

As a parent I always did what I felt was best for my son and not always what was best for the team. At his age we were more concerned about how to get him developed as a player and not how many trophies that would end up in the attic later.

Obviously we felt a strong sense of loyalty when we committed to a team. We never quit before the season was over. We always waited until the season break and reassessed what was going on. Well, I take that back once when he was 12 we actually left in the middle of a tournament. There were about 6 kids on that team that seemed to be headed for the state pen. We got outta there while the gettin was good. The coaches did not hold it against us.

I say we because I always felt it was best if I was there as atleast an assistant coach. I felt I could control more of what went on with my son and I was right. It did help.

I guess you have to own the decisions you make no matter what team you go to. You can't just give your son to someone and say here you go....do whats best for him and I'll just sit on the sideline and watch. You should always hold coaches to any promises they make to your son. It's only right, but you should never expect that they are going to give you something they never promised.

Talk to the coach of the team, or director of the program, that you are leaving and have a frank discussion. I was not pleased with some things that had happened on one of the teams that my son was on and discussed it with the head of the program that he was part of. He made some changes and it resulted in us staying with the program, which ultimately turned out for the best. Sometimes it just takes an honest and open discussion.

I qualify that though with saying that I limit my discussions to things that do not include playing time or how important I believe my son to be. My issues happened to be with the events we were attending etc. as I just have never wanted to be the father who was badgering the coach about playing time etc. But I still maintain that you should address the issues with the current team and give them the chance to correct. Sometimes it works out for the best, as it did in our case...

Thanks for the input. In this case, it is not one of being unhappy or disatisfied with an organization. It is strictly about what seems to be the best fit and opportunity. I agree that honesty is the best approach. I am glad to hear that most Coaches do not take it personally, because past Coaches have played a vital role and their dedication has been much appreciated.

Some time ago, I jokingly observed that travel baseball exists in a perpetual state of free agency. That's not to say it should, but the reality is that it does.

Generally I think it is smart for parents to work with their sons on making careful and considered decisions before making commitments, and then emphasizing that an honorable young man keeps his commitments. I also think that, to earn the reputation of being a reputable travel team, its coaches have to respect that attitude. In return, they should also have a right to expect that attitude from their players.

The typical commitment to a travel program is for a "team cycle". In younger ages, that is often from September through the following July, with August off, though for some teams it may only be for the summer, or for summer and fall. At high school age, typically we're talking about summer only, or summer + fall.

I do think that a player could leave honorably if the team gave him cause for that. This could include failure to keep promises that were made in the course of recruiting the player, dishonesty or misconduct by the coaches, etc. I also think a team should have the right to release a player for misconduct (by the player or by his parents), though the better practice is to make that explicit up front to all the players and parents.

I know of situations, and have participated in situations, where a player was "loaned" to another team for a particular event. This involves mutual agreement among all affected parties, so no one could see anything wrong with that.

All this being said, I take it that the question is really whether it's OK to just hop from team to team, as some of your perennially disgruntled types do, or to try to "climb" from a lesser team to a higher team if the opportunity presents itself. I know this happens but I don't think it reflects well on the player or the team that takes him on. And if you think college coaches don't notice such things, you're deluding yourself.

I do distinguish between the kid who jumps ship mid-summer on the one hand, and the kid who played for Team A last year but opted for Team B this year. I don't see a problem with the latter. I would expect any number of people on this board to support the hard line coach who sees no problem cutting a kid this year even if he was on the team last year if he simply did not play well. I don't see any reason why that should not be a two-way street.

"That said, don't expect the same from the teams. From what I saw for over ten years, there is no 'proper etiquette' with other coaches pursuing kids. There are some fine coaches/ organizations but alot are not. Make sure the team you are moving to is being upfront with your son. As many as not, will promise playing time and recruit right over your son next tournament." --Prep Ball

Prep Ball has it right. These teams are money-making businesses. Never think that there is a true commitment or any loyalty--other than to the kid who, in that moment, means a better profit. I have watched many, many great kids get stepped on by many of the teams folks in these parts think are the premier club teams. They even use the kid and his image to promote themselves, then when Buzz Lightyear comes along, they throw Woody to the wolves.

Sure, that sounds cynical, but in dealing with Club sports (not just baseball, mind you) for 15 years, I have learned the bottom line--profit. There are used car salesmen with more integrity than many Club managers.

Finally, I suspect that there are one or two decent folk out there in the business. I just have not come across one yet.

I know there are a few bad apples out there, but I believe they are few and not the norm. Most of the opposing coaches we deal with love the game and do what they do as a labor of love. Some do take a stipend from it, but charging for a valuable service and getting paid by people who did not have guns put to their heads is hardly anything to get upset about.

On our team (Virginia Cardinals), the coaches take no compensation whatsoever. We raise the money to run the team and no player fees are assessed -- so replacing one player with another wouldn't line our pockets anyway. Players and parents are given a sheet of rules of conduct and team expectations. Live by those rules and you are with us for the summer/fall cycle. We believed when we took you on that you would produce. If we were wrong, that's our problem.

We exist to take a kid through the recruiting process. Leaving aside the integrity aspect of things, we see no reason to take on a kid later on in the cycle, when it's too late for us to get him into the process and to have success. What we want is not to lay claim to 50 players a year, but to have a 100% success record with the few guys we do commit to.

Last year, our first in operation, we had 9 2011 players we committed to. As of now, 7 of them have college roster spots waiting for them next year. We are still working on the other 2. We're proud of having a 78% success rate and believe that compares pretty darned well to any other team you'll find. But we still believe that we'll reach the 100% success level before next fall arrives.

This year, we have 14 2012 players on our roster. One, who was with us last year as well, has already verballed. I honestly believe the other 13 will get to that point well ahead of the November NLI signing period. It's conceivable some of our 2013 guys will have verballed by then as well.

I do know of one team that makes liberal use of "cameo appearances" (fill-in players) and then lays claim to those kids' successes even when they had nothing to do with it. When a single team starts talking about having 25 guys committing out of a single class year, you know somebody's cooking the books. Other teams tout their successes but do not disclose how many kids they take on who never reach their goals. Those are the ones where you have to worry about being replaced mid-cycle, because touting the high number of success stories is how they attract players.

But as I say, these teams are the exception and not the rule by any means. At worst, they are the cautionary tales that suggest that players and parents should ask questions and get meaningful answers before they make their team selections.

I agree with Midlo on a lot of this. I think that it really winds up with the parents and player doing the research and finding the right fit. That said, it is sometimes harder than it maybe should be. Lots of times you really don't get the straight scoop from parents of other players on the team for a myriad of reasons, and you also will often get a hard sell from the coach so it can be a tough choice. I think that this site has a lot of great information and frank discussions that can help a lot.

I also agree with the comment about the teams that are a revolving door for the talent. Some kids are okay in that environment and others just aren't. Our particular team pulls mainly from local talent and has games and practice during the week to prepare for events on the weekends. The result has been a very successful team that has very, very tight bonds between the players and the coaches. The coaches are also very conscious about taking on new kids. They prefer to make the selections during the tryouts and then go with what they have during the year.

Leaving mid-season is no good unless there are some really valid reasons. We had a kid leave in the middle of a tournament a number of years ago because his dad was angry about playing time. He left about 15 minutes before a semi-final game. We went on to win the tournament and now 4 years later we played against him last night in a high school game and the kids on our team were still talking about that event. That kid lost all the respect of those players and it was probably all the dad's doing... Tough deal for the kid.

I think that probably the hardest piece is for the parent(s) to really come to grips with the true skill level of their kid. I have seen so many parents getting angry about playing time and being in the coaches face about it when their kid was average at best. It is such a selfish act that I just don't know how they do it. Where do they figure the extra playing time comes from and do they have enough guts to walk up to the other parents and tell them that they figure their kid is so much better than the rest that those other players should give up time so that that kid can play more? Nope.

Again, as Midlo pointed out, there are some teams that don't do the right thing but I would agree that most do. The coaches are in a tough spot because they are the ones tasked with being honest about a players chances at the next level and most times the parents of those that don't have what it takes do not accept that for an answer and the coaches are stuck trying to deal with that piece. Many times its the first time that that player has actually had an honest assessment of his ability due to him probably being coached by Dad while coming up through the ranks, and it is a tough pill to swallow (for parents AND player).

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Finally, I suspect that there are one or two decent folk out there in the business. I just have not come across one yet.

Sounds like some ugly past history... I have the same feeling about a lot of programs but am happy to say that the current program that my son is part of actually has some coaches that you mention you haven't come across. The teams have to conduct things with an eye towards business or else they would not be able to exist from year to year, so that is always somewhat in the picture, but we are lucky in having coaches that go the extra mile for the players. I'll count us as being fortunate...

NOVA, the type of parent/player you're talking about is what I meant by the reference to "perennially disgruntled types." You know, always simmering because they are sure their son is the best around and just not getting his due on the team.

You will know these people because they are constantly carping about the team being beset by "politics." Meaning, they cannot imagine that their son is just not that good, so there must be some underhanded reason why he's not getting his due.

One thing that feeds this is when a team takes money from a kid who really doesn't have "it". When you say you're a college placement team and you take the kid's money, it implies that you think you can help him get where he wants to go. If you don't really believe that, because you don't really think he's that good, you're just asking for trouble down the road because inevitably they are not going to be happy campers, and then you have dissension in your dugout and in the stands.

A team is better off cutting that kid and putting up with one nasty e-mail after you announce roster decisions, than carrying him for a full cycle. But I guess in those rare cases where the team is really just a for-profit venture, the team is ready to put up with this as long as the check clears. I'd bet somewhere in there is a "no refunds" policy as well.

You're right Midlo. It really makes it hard on the team because it often ends up happening that the parents gripe to the kid and then he has an attitude towards the other players that are "taking" HIS time or hogging all the playing time. Bad news for team moral.

I understand that teams need to make some money and I don't begrudge them for that. It is truly awesome that teams like the Cards are funded because I have long felt badly for some really great players who couldn't afford the summer costs. There is a level that it gets to when it means that the team is simply a business venture and is not really out there to help move players forward. We were approached by a team that has a very good reputation as being at the top of the heap in the region for showcases but also known for pulling kids from everywhere. We seriously considered moving onto the team because of their reputation for success but after meeting with the coach I really got the feeling that I was talking to a salesman and not a ball player. We later met the team in a showcase event done in NC and I was so happy that we had not made the move. I have a friend who had a son on the team and his kid was only getting couple of innings or so of time due to there being 30+ kids and a number of the kids were players that rotated in for specific tournaments but were not part of the "core" group. It was terrible. Much different experience than us, being that our coach carries a limited number of slots and there are no players that rotate in and out from other states just because its a better event.

The end result is that our coach has a much better team, the players are extremely close and the parents are a cohesive group that enjoy spending time together on trips to the events (same is true for the players). No idea why anyone would want it any other way...

I coach a travel team. Have for awhile. Personally, and this is JUST my opinion...

I would prefer the parents / players come to me and let me know what's going on. I'm not going to get upset or try to stop one of my players from taking a better opportunity than what I can offer.

What I have learned is that many Travel Coaches missed their TRUE calling. They should have been politicians or used car salesmen. It's easy enough to tell someone WHAT they want to hear.

I've had kids leave my team (After the season was over) and get recruited by another team. I've also had most of those same kids ASK to come back after leaving. Most have come back, even if it's the following season / cycle.

How are people supposed to learn things if not on their own? It's easy enough for me to tell a parent about a certain coach or organization, but that's just my word. Better if they see if for themselves.

GO TO THE COACH.

IF there are NO hard feelings, then I don't see the issue. A Travel coach should be concerned with his players.

If Cal Ripken showed up and wanted to coach my team...guess what? I'd probably dislocate my shoulder handing him the bucket, fungo and clipboard. Not to mention I'd keep my mouth shut and my ears open.

Just my 2 cents.

In this case, the prior team provided exposure and we were thoroughy satisfied with playing time. The prior team is more locally based talent and has many talented players and a knowlegable coaching staff. We chose to go another route because of the new team's success with college placement and it has a lot of state wide talent. Botton line, the goal is to do what is the best interest of the player while making sure you are handling it well with all parties involved.

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It's easy enough for me to tell a parent about a certain coach or organization, but that's just my word.

It would be easy but ill advised. Even if you're dead right, you only look bad by talking down another program. As you say, you just have to let people find out the hard way unforunately.

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We chose to go another route because of the new team's success with college placement and it has a lot of state wide talent.

I don't know who your son is or what teams you've been with or are now with. But you're describing a situation that is quite common, where a local stud moves to a statewide team because that's the best vehicle for him and his future.

I think there's nothing wrong with that, and in fact I would encourage it. Just handle the relationships up front and candidly.

A move like this is actually expected. A very good local team is often the best vehicle for a player's development -- a team with a good instructor as a coach and lots of playing time. But when you get to being a sophomore or a junior -- not that you don't have to keep learning and developing -- but if you're intent on pursuing collegiate opportunities you have to pick the vehicle that gets you scouted the most.

So as not to blow our own horn, let's posit this in the context of a kid moving to the Canes. When you join the Canes, you know that where ever they go, there will be scouts, because they have talent coming out their ears. This is the kind of team you want to be on. Maybe someone will come specifically to see you. But maybe someone comes to see someone else and then notices you while they are there. This has a much better chance of happening if you play for a team that's loaded.

That's why I say, play for the best team that will play you. As long as you're not riding the pine, the loaded team is your best bet from a recruiting/exposure standpoint.

The mistake some folks make is trying to have their own team so they can be the star, or trying to have a situation where you are the focus of attention on the team. Big mistake. Even if you stand out, will anyone see it to know? And if you look like a selfish jerk, will anyone want you, even if you are quite talented?

The other mistake people make is staying with their locally based team because "he wants to play with his friends." Look, you can play Legion ball or whatever next year. Either you are serious about pursuing college ball or you aren't. If you're a go-getter, go out there and get it. If you just want to hang out and have fun while it lasts, that's fine, just be prepared for the fun to end when you get your HS diploma.

Wahoo80 said

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....For those Old Timers out there, are there any "unspoken rules" when changing showcase teams?
In terms of leaving one for a better opportunity, commiting to one and then deciding to go with a different one? Lastly, if a player is known to have commited to a team, is there "etiquette" with other coaches pursuing the player?

The Golden Rule applies.....treat others how you want to be treated. Let the coach/manager know your intentions. I've been on both sides of this fence, and that is the best way to handle. I think it says a lot about your values and character, and it is good life lesson for your son.

MidloDad said

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....Some time ago, I jokingly observed that travel baseball exists in a perpetual state of free agency. That's not to say it should, but the reality is that it does.

That is beautiful Midlo, no truer words have been written. I've always said....if you want to learn about people, start a travel baseball team. I really learned a lot about other people's parenting styles, values, and priorities. It truly was eye-opening. I get together at Happy Hour every now and then with the 4 coaches that I coached with for 7 years. We recall some of the funniest stories. Good times for sure.

But again, keep in mind that there are a number of teams that pull from local talent that are amazingly good and get major exposure. The key is what events they play and who they play. Just like what was mentioned above, if the team you are on is playing the Canes and others like them then you will also be seen. The problem that exists as you move higher up the ladder then becomes playing time. A team like the Canes attracts a ton of attention and they will pull players from other Canes teams to go to events so you could be on a certain team but have your playing time "bumped" a little because of a player coming in from somewhere else. It is a double-edged sword...

Like I said earlier, there are some players that do well in this type of situation but there are others that would rather the team was in less of a state of flux. Doesn't mean one player is better than the other, just means that you have to really pay attention to the FIT of the player to the system as opposed to the number of players listed on the website that moved on to college. Because I know for a fact that there are teams out there touting players who have gone on to college via their system that actually played the bulk of their time and were recruited from elsewhere...

The Canes are very, very good at what they do but there are many other systems that have similar success, are less costly, provide much better training and give you son less of a beauty pagent experience...

If memory serves, your son may play for the NVTBL Stars, which is a really good team that both plays quite well and handles recruiting quite well.

But I don't know if we're talking apples and apples if you think of them as a "local" team. Most "local" teams come out of the territory of a high school or two. In your area, three counties make up what -- half the state's population? Your little "local" team has quite a base of players to draw from!

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Originally posted by NOVABBall13:
..they will pull players from other Canes teams to go to events so you could be on a certain team but have your playing time "bumped" a little because of a player coming in from somewhere else. It is a double-edged sword...

The Canes do not bump kids. We have 2 teams for WWB and every kid who wants to go, goes and gets adequate playing time. We do pick up arms when we go down there as well as Ft Myers and Jupiter because we expect to go deep in the tourney. Playing 10 games in 4-5 days puts a toll on an 8-9 man rotation so we add 1-2 arms. It just so happens that the arms we add are pretty good (Beede, Irvin, et al). We are fortunate in that respect.

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Originally posted by redbird5:

quote:

Originally posted by NOVABBall13:
..they will pull players from other Canes teams to go to events so you could be on a certain team but have your playing time "bumped" a little because of a player coming in from somewhere else. It is a double-edged sword...

The Canes do not bump kids. We have 2 teams for WWB and every kid who wants to go, goes and gets adequate playing time. We do pick up arms when we go down there as well as Ft Myers and Jupiter because we expect to go deep in the tourney. Playing 10 games in 4-5 days puts a toll on an 8-9 man rotation so we add 1-2 arms. It just so happens that the arms we add are pretty good (Beede, Irvin, et al). We are fortunate in that respect.

Sorry, Redbird-- Canes shift rosters (A and B teams) for those tourneys and pitchers do not necessarily get "adequate playing time" and Canes do not tell players and parents that upfront.

I have not seen any instances of that.

In fact, I have no knowledge of there being "A" and "B" Canes teams. There have been "North" and "South" teams. And now there are Delmarva and Mid-Atlantic teams. But I've never heard of A vs. B with the Canes.

There is another program that staffs teams by tiers, perhaps you are confusing the two.

quote:

Originally posted by Midlo Dad:
I have not seen any instances of that.

In fact, I have no knowledge of there being "A" and "B" Canes teams. There have been "North" and "South" teams. And now there are Delmarva and Mid-Atlantic teams. But I've never heard of A vs. B with the Canes.

There is another program that staffs teams by tiers, perhaps you are confusing the two.

North and South have been mixed/matched into A and B teams for WWB and Jupiter in the past.

I have seen the Canes shift players between teams for practical reasons and augment a roster for competitive reasons.

An example of a practical reason is that, in the fall of 2010, the North 18s’ roster had a few Virginia players and a majority of North Carolina players while the South 18s’ roster was the inverse. One weekend the 18s were playing in both a showcase at the University of South Carolina and one at the University of Maryland. The Virginia players from the North team were shifted to the South 18s to play at the University of Maryland, a closer venue, and the North Carolina players from the South team were shifted to the North team to play at the University of South Carolina, a closer venue for them. There were other weekends when such a shift occurred for practical travel reasons.

To be competitive at the larger tournaments (WWB, Fort Myers, Jupiter), not only are extra pitchers brought in, as Redbird mentioned, but also stronger, younger players may be brought up from a younger Canes team (for example, at least two of the strongest players on the Canes team which competed in the 2010 Jupiter tournament were from a lower age group). The goal at the three tournaments I mentioned is to win. They are tournaments, not showcases. Coach Petty is upfront about indicating that for those three tournaments, the goal is to win. I recall that, for at least the past three years, the schedule posted on the Canes’ website for the fall contained the words “by invitation” for the Fort Myers and Jupiter tournaments. Coach Petty offered in an email to players to speak with any player who wanted to know what his role would (or wouldn’t) be at the Jupiter tournament so that the player could decide whether his projected role would be worth the expense of time and money. Unfortunately, with the pitchers, it is a difficult tightrope for ANY participating team. Bringing in or up extra pitchers to staff the prospect of advancing deep into the tournament can result in pitchers not necessarily getting “adequate playing time” if the team exits the tournament early. In that event, there just are not enough innings played to spread among all pitchers. Not bringing in or up extra pitchers can make the early exit a self-fulfilling prophesy. For Jupiter 2009 and 2010, Coach Petty confirmed in advance that if the Canes exited the tournament early, they would have extra games scheduled, in an effort to assure that the pitchers would all get innings. The Canes exited the Jupiter tournament early in 2009 and the extra games were played.

A few years ago, the Canes did shift players between teams of the same age for the Firecracker tournament to make a more competitive team. My recollection is that the Canes did not make such a shift last year.

With all due respect, gentlemen-- all those reasons may be correct in those instances-- but i have first hand knowledge that those guidelines are not explained upfront.

I am not here to bash the Canes. Just saying "buyer beware" when changing teams.Parents/players responsibility to ask all the questions and get the answers you need if you are paying the dollars.

Midlo, what the Cards do, eliminates some of these issue because you fund your team. And as you have explained you keep your kids for the season and do not bring in kids "one off" for tournaments.

If a parent pays money for their to be on a team that "recruited" their son to be on a showcase team, there should be a a reasonable expectation that playing time will be there and that next week other kids won't be brought in (who aren't paying).

Not saying what is done is wrong, just that in more than one instance it was not conveyed that way upfront. If it is now, good for you.

Much of the advice here has been spot on. The bottom line is that all of this is "life training". My 2-cents: Make the player have the conversation - not mommy or daddy. If a player wants to be treated like a young man then it's time for big-boy britches and adult conversations.

As for the Canes - my personal view is that they deliver on their promises. The kids who tend to walk away dissatisfied were kids who didn't perform up to expectations. I have sent a dozen or so kids their way over the years and their experiences were purely reflective of their performances.

Truth of the matter is that if you have been on more than 3 travel teams in the last 3 or 4 years then the problem is likely not the organizations. It might be expectations. Or, if the internal competition within a program as solid as the Canes is too much then what do you think it's going to be like in college or - ultimately - professional baseball?

Finally, the suggestion that the Canes have an "A" and "B" team is absurd. Mostly because they don't have any "B" players to begin with.

The same can't be said of other "organizations" that we all know about.

Do the Canes carry an 18u team - and by that I mean 2011 graduates? Where do many of those players play this summer after high school - before college? Who gets them on teams? The Canes, or their new College Coaches?

dont know about what the Canes do but lots of guys headed to college play on their American Legion team or do a few tournamemts with teams....the college coach would not get involved...usually the summer before college, while you want to stay active with baseball, you also want to get preparred fpr college...some schools even have transition programs where the kids can take a class or two on campus..tnis particularly helps players get ahead of the game before school starts in the Fall.

Another factor for tourneys like Jupiter and Ft. Myers is that not everyone on one team's roster wants to go, so someone has to be brought in to fill a need.

A senior player who has already committed may not see any benefit from flying down to Jupiter and paying a hotel and rental car bill as well. I love Jupiter and hope to keep returning every year, but as the recruiting time table accelerates year after year, more and more seniors are finding it an expensive indulgence instead of a critical recruiting venue. With a team like the Canes, a whole lot of their roster is already committed before the end of October rolls around. The ones who benefit are more likely to be those with pro aspirations and those who are still underclassmen.

Also -- to avoid leaving behind any misconceptions -- because our Cardinals team does not commit to more players than we can accommodate with ample playing time, we do occasionally find ourselves short handed, e.g., if a particular player needs a weekend off for something like PG National or a visit to a college of interest. So, we have used, and may still use, the occasional fill-in or "borrowed" player. I just don't think it's right for me to then claim credit for them landing a scholarship later on, if all they did was pitch 3 innings once or something like that.

The Canes have offered a summer 18u in the past but take into account the strain and expectation on a highly regarded prospect.

In a 2 pitcher system (which is the case with most hs programs) your feature guy could log up to 70 innings. Given that situation most college guys would recommend a summer off to rest, workout and build arm strength.

For a position player, if given the right opportunity, a collegiate summer league is great, but u risk sitting because a senior or junior in college has been placed there for exposure. It's a catch 22.

UVA has a majority of their incoming freshman attend summer school before they get there in order to take some classes and get acclimated to college life. I think this is great considering that most of these high level guys need a break for their bodies and mind.

In the end a lot of times there is a recommendation from the school, coujpled with a decision by the parents and ballplayerbased on the best interest of that individual ballplayer.

Let's not forget that colleges want all their recruits to come to school.

This thread is a great read.

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In the end a lot of times there is a recommendation from the school, coujpled with a decision by the parents and ballplayerbased on the best interest of that individual ballplayer

Coach2 - In talking with parents and players of former travel teammates, my impression is the players are pressured by their college coaches into playing summer ball. I'm not sure I would catergorize it as a coaches' "recommendation". I absolutely love the idea of UVA or other schools opening their doors for incoming freshmen to aclimate themselves to college life, and start their education. I think this should be done by more an more student athletes to ensure their mutual success.

MidloDad - I totally agree that an organizatoin should not take credit for the scholarship of a guest player. It kind of gives an organization a "used car salesman" reputation by claiming it is something that it is not. Buyer beware for sure. It looks good in the marketing material, but it really is dishonest when you think about it. I guess it is that anything-for-a-buck thinking that can give travel baseball a bad rep.

Every team / organization is different. As are players and families. Some places are better a better fit than others. That being said, my biggest gripe is not the older teams...what I call true "Showcase" teams.

It seems many organizations, whether planned or not, are using there younger age group teams to generate revenue for their older groups. I've seen more than a few parents convinced to have their son join an organization at the 14 (or YOUNGER) age level, and one of the big selling points made to the parents is the success of that organization getting kids into college baseball.

Let's be honest here. Except for the SUPER RARE athlete (Bryce Harper comes to mind) no Coach or Scout can predict what a player will (or won't) become at an age level younger than 15/16 (AT THE EARLIEST).

Heck, most kids are still growing at this point. Some are more physically mature than others, and some are more mentally mature than others.

I've actually seen an email from a Nationally recognized organization, to a parent of a prospective player, that talked about how the fees for that player's age group helped fund the older Showcase teams. It then went on to say "..so that when your son is on those teams, it helps lessen the financial burden when he is trying to get to the next level.." The player in question? He was 12.

Really?

I think the line has blurred, for some, between what a "Showcase" team is (or what it was originally meant to be) and a "Tournament" or "Travel" team.

Showcase teams are about getting exposure for individual players, exposure meant to help them get interest from coaches and organizations to possibly play at the next level. That's the primary focus of that team / organization.

The other teams fall all over the map. Some are looking just to win tournaments and get exposure for their organization. Some are looking to develop players with instruction and exposure to playing better competition. Others are just looking to make money.

No matter the original intent of these organizations, baseball at this level has become a BIG BUSINESS. And like any business it's meant to make money.

As a coach, I have no problem when you pick up a couple extra kids to go to a week long tournament. Pitching is key, and bringing in kids to pitch is simply smart. But I constantly see parents paying thousands of dollars per season for their son to play on these teams, only to watch other players be brought in, and these kids coming right in and playing. Many of these kids are "recruited" and one of the selling points I've witnessed is organization giving these parents / kids discounted fee structures, if they charge them at all.

At the older levels, performance is key. That's common sense. But too many younger level teams are actually taking a passive aggressive approach. They obviously have a reason why they chose a kid initially. If that kid isn't working out, for whatever reason, or they have brought in a better player, many teams will simply BENCH the original player and not say anything. They will simply look for the parents to pull the kid from the team when he isn't getting any playing time.

I don't see them refunding money. Most want the fees for the entire season up front. And it's not refundable.

So it's not always parents or kids fault when you see kids that have been in several organizations. Sure sometime it can be. The grass is always greener. But it's another facet of this area of baseball that many people seem to want to ignore.

Sorry for the novel, but this has bothered my for awhile. Not to mention it's fresh on my mind after a recent conversation with a coach where we disagreed on what a true "Showcase" team was.

My take was that a "Showcase" team, and we're talking 16-18U here...the purpose is get EXPOSURE for INDIVIDUAL players to help them possibly play at the next level. Anything that happens after that is just extra.

Just my lowly opinion.

Engrave CT's post (above) and pass it around to parents everywhere...
FWIW, I've been involved w/youth Basketball for many years, and in my experience, HS Baseball is just now catching up with HS Basketball in the development of showcase/prospect/"All Star" teams & programs, with most (if not all) of the same positive & negative attributes - with one of the more visible changes being a lower quality of HS Basketball. I'll bet we'll see the same in Baseball...

quote:

Originally posted by Midlo Dad:
If memory serves, your son may play for the NVTBL Stars, which is a really good team that both plays quite well and handles recruiting quite well.

But I don't know if we're talking apples and apples if you think of them as a "local" team. Most "local" teams come out of the territory of a high school or two. In your area, three counties make up what -- half the state's population? Your little "local" team has quite a base of players to draw from!

Half? Probably more like 2/3's. LOL I understand what your saying about that piece. My point really was more towards saying that the players are all, pretty much, within driving distance so in our situation it really works. We get top notch coaching during the week and have a very competetive team during the showcases. I think that this was key because it has allowed my son, in particular, to really grow and learn as a ballplayer with the same organization that he is competing for in the showcase events.

My comment on the Canes "bumping" players was not meant as a shot at the Canes. We have some very close friends who have kids playing on their teams and I think that are obviously a fantastic organization. I have heard though, on occassion, a situation where a Cane's player was brought in from another team (whether that was South to North or different age brackets I have no idea) and their son did not get the playing time that he thought that he was going to get at an event and it was not conveyed to them prior, so they say anyway... In retrospect, since it did not happen to my son, I should have simply left the team name off when giving the example...

I think that my main point really was to find the system that works for you. In our case I felt like my son had a lot of talent but, like all kids at that age, needed higher level coaching and development since we did not have any private coaching. With his current system he gets extensive training during the week and it has had a huge impact in his game over the last year or so. Other programs may not offer that but rather just meet for events. That wouldn't have worked for us. It might for others... The key is to be honest in your own evaluation of your kid, the hardest part, and do what is best for him. And then get the heck out of the way of the coaches and let them do their job! LOL

I will say this though. I think that it is a great thing that some select teams are now coming up with full sponsorship. My son played for the Philippine National Team for a few years and travelled extensively around the world competing. He had a number of friends that were unbelievable players that just could not afford to play since we had to fund airfare etc. It really broke my heart to see because they kids were every bit as good, and better in many instances, but never got the chance to wear the jersey... Kudos to those of you running these teams!!!

Somewhere in the past few years someone came up with the name "Showcase Teams". Many years earlier someone came up with the name "Travel Teams". Aren't they all just "Teams", some good, some not so good?

Calling them Travel Teams makes some sense, but could someone give an example of a showcase team? Seems to me that the teams that are the most competitive and win the most get the most exposure for their individual players. I'm positive that scouts and recruiters love to see prospects playing for keeps on competitive teams.

So if the better "teams" are the ones most interested in winning rather than individual showcasing... Does that mean that "Showcase Teams" are less talented and actually create less interest among scouts and recruiters? After all, isn't it those top teams that usually have the best individuals? And don't those teams and the players on those teams get the most exposure?

Not arguing any points made here, but personally I've never quite understood what a "Showcase Team" is. Sounds kind of strange when most of the best teams with the most talent don't refer to themselves as "Showcase Teams".

Of course there are Showcases for individuals, but IMO tournaments are for “Teams”… Two different types of exposure, both can be very helpful for the player that has talent.

IMO, they probably started to call them "showcase teams" when they started to play showcase events vice tournaments. I understand that many "showcase" teams play tournaments but the lion's share of the games they play are showcase. Which, as you know, is a completely different animal. Your normal "travel" team doesn't usually play in those same showcase events but rather fills their schedule with tournaments and/or individual games such as an NVTBL schedule...

quote:

Originally posted by NOVABBall13:
IMO, they probably started to call them "showcase teams" when they started to play showcase events vice tournaments. I understand that many "showcase" teams play tournaments but the lion's share of the games they play are showcase. Which, as you know, is a completely different animal. Your normal "travel" team doesn't usually play in those same showcase events but rather fills their schedule with tournaments and/or individual games such as an NVTBL schedule...

+1

From what I've seen, most (and I do say most, as there are always exceptions) Showcase events are usually just a set number of games played at a venue. Many times a college field / stadium. There is no pool play into bracket play.

We did our research and went with a team with incredible "testimonials" from well respected families, with good values. We were looking for a team that has a reputation for evaluating top notch talent, one that teaches values similiar to ours, one that can get into, play and compete in the best tournaments and provide a lot of exposure. We feel confident in our decision given the team's past successes with solid college placements and families being able to walk away at the end knowing without a doubt that they made the right choice. I am sure that no team is perfect. Yet, I agree with a lot of posts that have commented on doing your homework, finding the right fit and having the player handle most of the conversations with the Coach. The parents and the player are putting their faith in someone's hands that could impact a player's future. Once the decsision is made, I guess all we can hope for is that the player plays to the best of his ability and he is given the exposure to get him where he needs to be.

wahoos80 - Sounds like you put thought into the decision and went with what you thought was best. That's about all you can hope for as there really is no single formula for success. Kids move forward from a number of different paths. Probably the only common thread is that they all work their tails off to get there... (and have parents who root them on)

Best of luck to your son!

PG,

First of all, great to hear from you. I haven't seen you hanging around here much lately. I was afraid you'd forsaken us for the new PG HS web board.

But as to nomenclature, I always discourage the use of the term "showcase team." I prefer "exposure team."

For one thing, calling a travel team a "showcase team" only feeds the confusion between the respective roles of showcases as one exposure venue, and team competition tournaments as a different type of exposure venue. I may be fighting a lonely battle here, but I think referring to teams like the Canes as "showcase teams" helps fuel the kind of parent confusion that we all have to work to dispel one family at a time later on.

I do distinguish between a youth travel team and a high school travel team because I see them as having two different purposes as a player progresses. The younger teams should be what I call "development" teams. That is, when a kid is 15 or younger, the primary purpose should be to teach the "how tos" of the game and game situations. But when you get to ages 16-17, sure there are still teaching points, but for the most part you're taking players who are supposed to be already pretty far along, and trying to shove them under scouts' noses to aid in the recruiting process.

That's why development teams practice and exposure teams frequently do not.

Midlo Dad,

I've been as involved as ever here at HSBBW, just don't often post on the state/regional forums. I Still read what others post on the state forums, especially Virginia.

I just never liked it when teams are labeled "showcase teams". It really does sound like an individual thing. Heck, it's not that hard to pick out the better players (individuals) when they're playing on any team. Why does it have to be a showcase team?

We run showcases for individuals and tournaments for teams. Some of these tournaments provide the most exposure of any, as you know. Yet to me, they are just good teams with good players playing in a tournament. If they didn't care about winning, it might just as well be a showcase. Part of being a good player is the desire to have your team win.

I sometimes wonder if someone started calling themself a "showcase team" because it sounded like a bigger deal to the players and their parents. The best teams don't need to call themselves "Showcase Teams", yet those teams draw the most attention and get the most exposure for their players.

I know it's just words and not very important, but it kind of bothers me for some reason. Probably doesn't bother anyone else.

I think the Canes could call themselves "Jeff Petty's barnstorming band of baseball bandits" and folks would still show up to see them play. The talent level for teams like the Canes, Cardinals, etc speaks for itself. It doesn't take too long for teams to gain a reptutation (at least among scouts and coaches) for consistently boasting a roster full of top talent. Team's that try to fool people by calling themselves "showcase" teams or whatever will quickly be figured out. Talent talks and BS walks.

My point is that teams can call themselves anything, so that any lines distinguishing travel/showcase baseball have been blurred to the point where neither name means anything. I think that gets back to Midlo's point of calling it an "exposure team". Maybe that would lend some actual meaning to the name. Of course, it wouldn't be too long before every showcase team bacame an exposure team and we're kinda back where we started.

Well, BB (Basketball, the other BB) has seen the word "showcase" change from "team" to "event" in many parts of the country - the term was so overused that it now no longer generally identifies the caliber/class of team, rather, it more often now identifies events that advertise themselves as featuring coaches/scouts/representatives, as opposed to regular "tournaments"...

I think the whole "showvcase" business has turned baseball into an individual pursuit instead off a team sport as it once was. High School coaches have to work very hard to get kids to u derstand that the game is not about their individual accomplichments but about what the ffi al score is.
how many ti es have we all heard a kid whose team just lost say " I went 3 for 4" instead off concreni g the selves with a loss.
As a result I think college recruiters are having a harder time ffindig the kimd of competitors they need in order to win games that concern themselves witn the success of the team imstead of themselves as individuals. Leadership is getting harder amd harder to find!

I always wanted to call my team The Bingo Long Traveling All Stars.

Who remembers that movie?

Thank you NOVABALL! We are looking forward to the rest of the HS season and the summer tournaments! Does anyone have any input on how much weight a HS coach should have in selecting a summer team? There are some coaches that seem to prefer to keep their players together locally versus some of their players going with a team that consists of talent from all over the region. It makes sense for the benefit of the HS team as a whole but what about the individual player?

quote:

Does anyone have any input on how much weight a HS coach should have in selecting a summer team?

Wahoos80,

Great question. I'm interested to hear what others have to say.

I guess we would consider their input if it was provided or they seek involvement. Previously, we never considered a high school coaches involvement at any point in selecting a summer team. I have a college freshmen and high school sophomore, and I have to admit it never crossed my mind nor did we ever discuss it. My oldest son wanted to play at the highest travel ball levels, and get college exposure. We tried out for a 15U national travel team at the urging of his former travel coach. HS coach had no involvment whatsoever.

quote:

Originally posted by Midlo Dad:
I always wanted to call my team The Bingo Long Traveling All Stars.

Who remembers that movie?

Can they play the Motor Kings?
Heh...

I would say that in some cases (certainly not all) the high school coach could have some input just as far as maybe having a relationship with a particular summer coach or maybe having some "insider" info on certain programs. I'm not sure this would be the case very often, but the coach can be a good resource.

However, as far as what team a player chooses to play with, I think that decision is solely up to the player/parents as far as what the best fit for them is athletically/financially etc. In the summer I think the player should do what's best for themselves, even if that's not necessarily the best for the high school team.

i guess with the new VHSL rules HS coaches in some areas can have more involvement outside of tne high school season?

The high school coach should not be involved at all unless his involvement is requested, e.g., if the player asks for advice or if the player or team asks for a reference.

There is a huge potential for abuse when the kid's school coach gets involved. The worst situations are when the HS coach has his own team and the impression gets out there that you'd better be on his team, or else. When the best interests of the player get lost in the coach's effort to build a second income, someone has to step in and put their foot down.

quote:

Originally posted by Midlo Dad:
The high school coach should not be involved at all unless his involvement is requested, e.g., if the player asks for advice or if the player or team asks for a reference.

There is a huge potential for abuse when the kid's school coach gets involved. The worst situations are when the HS coach has his own team and the impression gets out there that you'd better be on his team, or else. When the best interests of the player get lost in the coach's effort to build a second income, someone has to step in and put their foot down.

It's going on in our area right now. It's not Chesterfield County. It's not Henrico County. Guess where?

I know of one in particular. I don't want to get into naming names publicly, but I had that situation front and center in my mind when I wrote my post above.

It's wrong and someone in authority (AD or principal) should put their foot down.

It's also worth noting that, both there and elsewhere, my observation has been that when an elite player actually does go with a different travel team, it's a case of calling the bluff, because the HS coach isn't about to go next spring without his best pitcher or best hitter. The risk might be perceived greater to a borderline player, but then, the borderline player is not looking at a lot of travel team options anyway.

The excuse commonly given is something along the lines of the coach wanting to build the team as a unit, building team cohesiveness in the off season, building for an expected big season, and then the guilt line comes -- "You wouldn't want to undermine that now, would you?"

The problem is that for the higher level player, the summers following sophomore and junior years are critical to recruiting. To subjugate his interests to the goal of milking a few more W's out of a 20-game season is just wrong. Basically it sacrifices the higher level kid's long term interests to the short term goal of aiming for a championship.

Not to mention, it also sends the message to kids who cannot pay the travel team fee that they are not welcome on the varsity team, don't bother trying out. And if the AD and the principal don't care about that, you wonder what they would care about.

And then this leads right back into the comment that hsbasballfan brought up with regards to the sport changing from a team pursuit to an individual one a little earlier.

IMHO, while baseball might be a "team" game the advancement of the player is very much an individual thing and no player should be put into a position where they sacrifice their own personal goals and aspirations outside of the period of commitment (i.e. the particular season). If they choose to go play on a travel team that enhances their chance at the next level during summer and fall then so be it.

Midlo is right. There are periods that are critical for certain players to get the right exposure in order to have the chance to advance and isn't the purpose of coaching at the lower levels supposed to be about the helping players advance their skill? Or is it really and truly all about the coach and his job security or status in his district (bragging rights)?

Part of me really wants to say that the HS coach should count his blessings that he has the elite player on his squad. I would venture to guess that many top players could run track in the spring and turn to travel/showcase ball in the summer/fall and suffer no consequence since it seems to be the work done on those squads that propel that player forward anyway... I wouldn't want to test the theory, I'm just saying... LOL

quote:

...Part of me really wants to say that the HS coach should count his blessings that he has the elite player on his squad. I would venture to guess that many top players could run track in the spring and turn to travel/showcase ball in the summer/fall and suffer no consequence since it seems to be the work done on those squads that propel that player forward anyway... I wouldn't want to test the theory, I'm just saying... LOL

You've just described the state of HS Basketball, Tennis, Golf, Swim & Dive, & more in most parts of the country. My .02 is that Baseball will follow...

i think we are in danger of losing perspective regarding what it is all about and some may have already.

To me this is like going to work, getting paid for my 40 hours a week, and then having the boss tell me what I must do with my evenings and weekends as well.

It's not a question of whether the kid is a team player, and it's not an example of exalting an individual player over the team at all. To the contrary, it's about the coach having enough humility to recognize that while we very much value what he does, we did not put him in charge of the entirety of our children's lives. And it's also a recognition that overstepping one's authority to line your own pockets is way out of bounds.

quote:

Originally posted by Midlo Dad:
To me this is like going to work, getting paid for my 40 hours a week, and then having the boss tell me what I must do with my evenings and weekends as well.

It's not a question of whether the kid is a team player, and it's not an example of exalting an individual player over the team at all. To the contrary, it's about the coach having enough humility to recognize that while we very much value what he does, we did not put him in charge of the entirety of our children's lives. And it's also a recognition that overstepping one's authority to line your own pockets is way out of bounds.

Not sure that it could be put any better than you just put it... Well said...

quote:

Originally posted by Midlo Dad:
To me this is like going to work, getting paid for my 40 hours a week, and then having the boss tell me what I must do with my evenings and weekends as well.

It's not a question of whether the kid is a team player, and it's not an example of exalting an individual player over the team at all. To the contrary, it's about the coach having enough humility to recognize that while we very much value what he does, we did not put him in charge of the entirety of our children's lives. And it's also a recognition that overstepping one's authority to line your own pockets is way out of bounds.

precisely...I was talking with another parent from a local public school that has a "franchise" team for summer/fall. The head coach forced the players to commit or not commit to the franchise team before cuts were made for the HS spring season. Nothing like that veiled threat hanging over a 15yo head...

What that does is breed dishonesty.

Because if a coach had played that game with my son, I would have told him to go ahead and sign up, and then we could just renege after the season was over.

Then as soon as the season was over, while there was 9 months to work with, I would have sought the coach's firing.

in the Central Region it seems about every school is committed to only having school employees coach the baseball teams...does tnis hold true in otner areas of the state? NOVA? Eastern Region?

I think that is unfortunate in a lot of ways. There have been some extremely qualified coaches passed up at the HS level.

i think it is ideal to have a coach that is in the school and can understand why they want to but sometimes there are guys in community who are better choices....just heard about a former NFL player offeringg his services to his old higgh schhol and being turned down.

The same goes for baseball. Guys that have worked as MLB scouts and guys that have played pro and D1 college baseball not being considered. I personally think the experience and being from the outside can have it's benefits. Also, not intending to target anyone specifically, sometimes you get guys that take a position within a school at a hgher profile program when they are more interested in the coaching position. On the flip side, I have seen a prior coach run a successful baseball program who is also an excellent teacher.

quote:

Originally posted by hsbasballfan:
in the Central Region it seems about every school is committed to only having school employees coach the baseball teams...does tnis hold true in otner areas of the state? NOVA? Eastern Region?

I can think of a few cases where this isn't the case, and I certainly don't think it's anything specific to the Central Region. I think it's all related to the school and/or county. In almost all cases, I think the preference would be to have a school employee coach the high school team for a variety of reasons. But you're right- to think that the best baseball coaches also happen to teach or work in the school system is wrong.

One issue is time- if nothing else, you know that if a coach also teaches at your school then he is available at practice time. Some school districts get out really early (I believe Chesterfield gets out at like 2:30 or something). Unless a non-school employee works a really strange schedule, he is simply not going to be available from 2:45-5:00 for practice. It's not as big of an issue in Hanover or Henrico because I believe school goes until about 3:30.

quote:

Originally posted by Emanski's Heroes:
One issue is time- if nothing else, you know that if a coach also teaches at your school then he is available at practice time. Some school districts get out really early (I believe Chesterfield gets out at like 2:30 or something). Unless a non-school employee works a really strange schedule, he is simply not going to be available from 2:45-5:00 for practice. It's not as big of an issue in Hanover or Henrico because I believe school goes until about 3:30.

Very good point. I know Chesterfield has more than one Schedule for schools. I know the local HS gets out at like 1:50pm!! When I found that out it blew my mind. It can be an issue for my son, since he's a 8th grade who made JV. The middle school doesn't get out until 2:50pm.

dont think it is an official policy but in talking to people who had applied for the jobs outside the system that is the trend in our area.

There are some cases where coaches teach at other schools the commute over for pratice... was a situation two yars ago where practie startd at 4:00 or 5:00 to accomodate the coachs availability