Again a lot of things go into this----our team plays from August to October--we know where most if not all of our pitchers have been during June, July and early August thus we have a pretty good idea of what sort of pitching shape they are in---additionally we play only on weekends except for our first tournament---during the fall we have more concern that they are doing their bullpens during the week.
And yes our kids are honest with us in terms of how they feel on the mound
Every situation varies
Pitch counts are important. Rule of thumb for pitchers in managing healthy arms is based upon concern for accumulative effect.
For instance, it is more damaging to a young arm if the number of pitches in one inning exceeds the 30 pitch rule.
For instance best pitch count per inning is around 14 -16 pitches.
If over 30 pitches in any one inning the following pitch count for that pitcher should then reduce innings pitched. In other words he used up two innings of pitch count in one inning and therefore his total innings will be effected.
For the pitch count, the rule of thumb that I learned many years ago is that it shouldn't exceed a pitcher's age by 5 times.
10 years old = 50 pitches
11 years old = 55 pitches
12 years old = 60 pitches
13 years old = 65 pitches
14 years old = 70 pitches
15 years old = 75 pitches
16 years old = 80 pitches
17 years old = 85 pitches
18 years old = 90 pitches
19 years old = 95 pitches
20 years old = 100 pitches
21 years old = 105 pitches
22 years old = 110 pitches
23 years old = 115 pitches
24 years old = 120 pitches
25 years old = 125 pitches
Pitching coaches shouldn't take their pitchers above the 125 pitch count in any one single outing. The effect of damage to the arm will take at least 5 days to recover properly from such an outing.
Hope this helps.
For instance, it is more damaging to a young arm if the number of pitches in one inning exceeds the 30 pitch rule.
For instance best pitch count per inning is around 14 -16 pitches.
If over 30 pitches in any one inning the following pitch count for that pitcher should then reduce innings pitched. In other words he used up two innings of pitch count in one inning and therefore his total innings will be effected.
For the pitch count, the rule of thumb that I learned many years ago is that it shouldn't exceed a pitcher's age by 5 times.
10 years old = 50 pitches
11 years old = 55 pitches
12 years old = 60 pitches
13 years old = 65 pitches
14 years old = 70 pitches
15 years old = 75 pitches
16 years old = 80 pitches
17 years old = 85 pitches
18 years old = 90 pitches
19 years old = 95 pitches
20 years old = 100 pitches
21 years old = 105 pitches
22 years old = 110 pitches
23 years old = 115 pitches
24 years old = 120 pitches
25 years old = 125 pitches
Pitching coaches shouldn't take their pitchers above the 125 pitch count in any one single outing. The effect of damage to the arm will take at least 5 days to recover properly from such an outing.
Hope this helps.
If the coach doesn't listen and keeps running the kid out to the mound with high pitch counts, then I agree.quote:I say the player should be able to talk to the coach. If it doesn't work, the parents should step in when it comes to safety.
quote:Originally posted by Dad04:
It is really not about hand-holding. The recruiting coordinator at son's college called his high school coach after the first start of HS senior season to complain after son threw 115 pitches. College folks have been down this road too often. They don't care about holding hands. They care about healthy elbows and shoulders.
You got that right. As a parent of a pitcher, our biggest concern was that if problems were going to arise, it was not going to be from over use as a pitcher in HS. My son's FIRST game of his HS season, he's in an 80+ pitch count. Not only did the coach get a call from my husband the next day, but the future college pitching coach as well, he was livid! Once a player signs, the coach wants to know he's going to come healthy, too many kids come to college used and abused.
Jerseydad brings up a good point. In pro ball, increases year to year are about 20% or for some the 30 inning rule. That rule should be adhered to in HS as well.
I have also been told that a senior HS pitcher, combined between travel and HS ball should not over exceed 70-80 innings.
The college coaches are not shy about stepping on toes, or "providing some leadership" regarding their recruits arms being abused. I'm not sure why parents should be any different.
quote:Originally posted by Dad04:
The college coaches are not shy aboutstepping on toes, or"providing some leadership" regarding their recruits arms being abused. I'm not sure why parents should be any different.
Well herein lies the problem. Johnny steps up and says my private pitching coach as well many posters on HSBBW feel that I should throw a maxium of 80 pitches and my parents support this.
If he has not already had something like this in place how receptive do you think the coach will be to the suggestion. He believes that what he is doing is correct.
Just curious on how many parents feel that the coach would honor their request without consequences
I guess it is a problem if you believe it is a problem. I regarded it as my obligation, acting accordingly. Admittedly, my son was signed and in his last HS season, but I was committed to resolving the issue regardless. I had inquired about pitch counts of his previous HS coach prior to the previous season, without any problem or issue.
On one hand you have folks here saying don't get involved with the high school coaches, then on the other hand these same individuals call the coach telling them about pitch counts.....interesting!
quote:Originally posted by Danny Boydston:
On one hand you have folks here saying don't get involved with the high school coaches, then on the other hand these same individuals call the coach telling them about pitch counts.....interesting!
I agree, and have stated that the player should always take care of his business between the coach, except when it becomes a health issue. We taught our son always to pull himself out of a game when he's tired.
We never had to speak to any coach about it. Except one for one start, the line had to be drawn because the team had no pitching son wasn't going to tow the line, had to be nipped in the bud asap.
No consequences suffered, what was he going to do, bench the best pitcher on the team?
You MUST have control if things are getting out of control in HS, because that will be the last time you ever get to speak up, protect them while you can.
quote:Originally posted by TPM:
You MUST have control if things are getting out of control in HS, because that will be the last time you ever get to speak up, protect them while you can.
When the line in the sand is made with a back-hoe with respect to parental input to the coaches it's not a stretch to think any questioning of how the program was being run would result in potential problems. And with some programs this will ring true.
I agrree you cannot be timid on this issue. Let the chips fall where the may.
I believe the USA team pitchers like Jake Peavey, are limited to no more than 80 pitches. They are grown men. Why would your son throw more?
Your average high school starting pitcher should throw once a week, no more than 80 tops. With warmups between innings in a 7 inning game, that's another 40 pitches, plus 30 in the bullpen to warmup, for a total of 150!
Of course, maybe you are not planning on him throwing again after high school...
And don't tell me that pitchers in Japan do this all the time, unless your son is Japanese.
Your average high school starting pitcher should throw once a week, no more than 80 tops. With warmups between innings in a 7 inning game, that's another 40 pitches, plus 30 in the bullpen to warmup, for a total of 150!
Of course, maybe you are not planning on him throwing again after high school...
And don't tell me that pitchers in Japan do this all the time, unless your son is Japanese.
This has been an ongoing struggle in baseball for decades: the HS overuses the pitcher's arm; the colleges overuse the pitcher's arm,
I do know the biggest problem in HS is that many coaches overthrow a kid because they have not taken the time to develop more pitchers. It does take time. I've found that lots of kids like to pitch and if given a chance you'll get some pleasant surprises. In my program you basically get your shot to pitch once a week; if you have a bad outing you'll probably get another shot next week because we use lots of guys on the mound. In years I have had a real go-to gun; he's once a week never over 99 pitches.
There are a lot of left-fielders out there that would love to get a shot on the mound; and it might save their buddies' arms if they did get a chance.
I do know the biggest problem in HS is that many coaches overthrow a kid because they have not taken the time to develop more pitchers. It does take time. I've found that lots of kids like to pitch and if given a chance you'll get some pleasant surprises. In my program you basically get your shot to pitch once a week; if you have a bad outing you'll probably get another shot next week because we use lots of guys on the mound. In years I have had a real go-to gun; he's once a week never over 99 pitches.
There are a lot of left-fielders out there that would love to get a shot on the mound; and it might save their buddies' arms if they did get a chance.
The player approaches the coach first. And he doesnt say "My private pitching coach says " - or - "the people of the HSBBW said". He simply says "Coach my arm still feels fatigued from throwing so many pitches in my last outing. I feel that I need more rest between starts and when I reach 90 pitches etc , I start to feel I fatigue and my mechanics suffer. I want to help the team anyway I can but I feel that I am throwing too many pitches when I pitch and I feel I need more time between starts."
Now understand if your son is getting this many innings he must be an important cog in the operation. The coach if he is any coach at all is going to listen and he is going to be receptive. If he goes off and tells the kid he is going to do what he wants him to do then the parent has to step in on the players behalf. If he still takes that attitude then maybe its time for a transfer?
You can sit back and be afraid of the coach and take your chances if you are in this type of situation. Or you can do the right thing for your kid. Thats up to you. If a coach is throwing a kid to death that should tell you all you need to know about what type of coach you are dealing with in the first place. Have your son step up. You step up if that doesnt work. And if you choose to not step up , then be quiet and take your medicine.
Now understand if your son is getting this many innings he must be an important cog in the operation. The coach if he is any coach at all is going to listen and he is going to be receptive. If he goes off and tells the kid he is going to do what he wants him to do then the parent has to step in on the players behalf. If he still takes that attitude then maybe its time for a transfer?
You can sit back and be afraid of the coach and take your chances if you are in this type of situation. Or you can do the right thing for your kid. Thats up to you. If a coach is throwing a kid to death that should tell you all you need to know about what type of coach you are dealing with in the first place. Have your son step up. You step up if that doesnt work. And if you choose to not step up , then be quiet and take your medicine.
quote:The player approaches the coach first. And he doesnt say "My private pitching coach says " - or - "the people of the HSBBW said". He simply says "Coach my arm still feels fatigued from throwing so many pitches in my last outing. I feel that I need more rest between starts and when I reach 90 pitches etc , I start to feel I fatigue and my mechanics suffer. I want to help the team anyway I can but I feel that I am throwing too many pitches when I pitch and I feel I need more time between starts."
Coach May,
That is probably best case scenario, but right or wrong, not all (and mind probably would not have) teenagers or young adults will take that approach.
The maturity level varies in each kid. I know, that's part of the growing up process. If, as some have stated, parents keep their nose out of it, then the coach needs to be trusted in what he's doing.
80-90-110 pitches, who makes the call on the right pitch count, the coach or the parent. When is it ok to question the coach? This debate has been going on since I've joined the web, and it's always been don't interfere unless your childs health is in danger. Would a coaches decision on pitch count fall under that category. Just seems to me there is no clear cut answer.
oh well, what do I know.
Danny,
I know you addressed Coach May but it really isn't too hard to figure out.
If a HS pitcher pitches 80- 100 pitches on monday night, pitching in another game on thursday night makes little sense to me. A pitcher regardless of what level needs to be on a regular rotation with proper rest in between his outings. Over 100 p count for HS players is not necessary.
The coach also has to be familiar with his pitchers. Most coaches should know when a particular pitcher reaches a certain count, to start looking for certain signs of fatigue. The pitcher doesn't always realize he's tired. For son's coaches, it was always easy, he drops down a notch on the slot immediately, then the hook comes out.
Also should be a progression, lower counts first few times on the mound beginning of season.
I know you addressed Coach May but it really isn't too hard to figure out.
If a HS pitcher pitches 80- 100 pitches on monday night, pitching in another game on thursday night makes little sense to me. A pitcher regardless of what level needs to be on a regular rotation with proper rest in between his outings. Over 100 p count for HS players is not necessary.
The coach also has to be familiar with his pitchers. Most coaches should know when a particular pitcher reaches a certain count, to start looking for certain signs of fatigue. The pitcher doesn't always realize he's tired. For son's coaches, it was always easy, he drops down a notch on the slot immediately, then the hook comes out.
Also should be a progression, lower counts first few times on the mound beginning of season.
I agree that this is the best approach. Will it work? That's pretty iffy. As another poster pointed out, very few kids have the maturity to execute this plan. And if they do many coaches will automatically assume Daddy/Mommy put them up to it.
My Story.
Chapter 1-JV Baseball.
In a JV game my 8th grade son threw 115 pitches in a game. I said nothing, hoping it was a one time thing. A week or so later he threw 131 pitches at an away game. I was livid. I met the coach when the bus got back. Me: "Coach, we need to talk. Son threw a lot of pitches tonight." Coach: "Yes sir, I know, but I don't know exactly how many." Me: "I do, 131." Coach: "My god, I apologize. I had no idea." Me: "Well, that's how many it was, and I think that's too many. We are in this for the long haul." Coach: "I agree. It won't happen again." And it didn't. After that he had a player or two charting pitches. In his defense, he had 25 kids that he was trying to handle by himself. I, and others, later raised hell to get him an assistant. I believe what he told me. He had no idea how high the count was. He appreciated me telling him. And it has never happened with another kid he coached. He and I are still friendly.
Chapter 2. The Varsity Coach.
I was a little skeptical about the new coach because some of his former players had had arm issues. In 9th grade son was called up to the varsity for playoffs. During a Saturday game we have a big lead, but starter gets in trouble. To my surprise, son is brought in and pitches 3 2/3's, approximately 70 pitches.
On Monday, 2 days later, starter gets in trouble in 1st inning. Son is again brought in, on 1 days rest, and throws another 50 pitches. He is ineffective due to fatigue. I say nothing.
That summer he tweaks elbow in Legion ball. I decide he needs to take the fall off, just to play it safe. Varsity coach is not happy with me.
That spring he throws around 25-30 pitches in the first scrimmage, approximately 70 in the second. First region game of the season it's around 40-45 degrees. I get a call on my cell from the scorekeeper. His count is up close to 90. We figure he's about to come out. He goes back out for the next inning, and the next. By this time scorekeeper tells me his pitch count is 130+. I head off to find the coach, who was ejected in the 2nd inning, but is standing outside the fence, relaying instructions anyway. My voice shaking with anger I tell him he needs to get son out because his count is 130+. He says "I don't have a pitch count up here." I respond "You've got 3 assistants in the dugout, what the hell are they doing." I also tell him he's about to lose the game because son has been clearly laboring for the last 2 innings. About that time the assistant comes out and tells coach they are about to take him out. Me to assistant: "Make him run after he gets done." He looks at me like I'm crazy.
For the next 3 years son's pitch count never gets over 100. But son and I pay the price in several ways. Coach still hates me to this day. And bad-mouths son when he gets a chance.
Chapter 3.
Son is pitcher at Top 20 school. In your face coach. He succeeded in spite of you.
My Story.
Chapter 1-JV Baseball.
In a JV game my 8th grade son threw 115 pitches in a game. I said nothing, hoping it was a one time thing. A week or so later he threw 131 pitches at an away game. I was livid. I met the coach when the bus got back. Me: "Coach, we need to talk. Son threw a lot of pitches tonight." Coach: "Yes sir, I know, but I don't know exactly how many." Me: "I do, 131." Coach: "My god, I apologize. I had no idea." Me: "Well, that's how many it was, and I think that's too many. We are in this for the long haul." Coach: "I agree. It won't happen again." And it didn't. After that he had a player or two charting pitches. In his defense, he had 25 kids that he was trying to handle by himself. I, and others, later raised hell to get him an assistant. I believe what he told me. He had no idea how high the count was. He appreciated me telling him. And it has never happened with another kid he coached. He and I are still friendly.
Chapter 2. The Varsity Coach.
I was a little skeptical about the new coach because some of his former players had had arm issues. In 9th grade son was called up to the varsity for playoffs. During a Saturday game we have a big lead, but starter gets in trouble. To my surprise, son is brought in and pitches 3 2/3's, approximately 70 pitches.
On Monday, 2 days later, starter gets in trouble in 1st inning. Son is again brought in, on 1 days rest, and throws another 50 pitches. He is ineffective due to fatigue. I say nothing.
That summer he tweaks elbow in Legion ball. I decide he needs to take the fall off, just to play it safe. Varsity coach is not happy with me.
That spring he throws around 25-30 pitches in the first scrimmage, approximately 70 in the second. First region game of the season it's around 40-45 degrees. I get a call on my cell from the scorekeeper. His count is up close to 90. We figure he's about to come out. He goes back out for the next inning, and the next. By this time scorekeeper tells me his pitch count is 130+. I head off to find the coach, who was ejected in the 2nd inning, but is standing outside the fence, relaying instructions anyway. My voice shaking with anger I tell him he needs to get son out because his count is 130+. He says "I don't have a pitch count up here." I respond "You've got 3 assistants in the dugout, what the hell are they doing." I also tell him he's about to lose the game because son has been clearly laboring for the last 2 innings. About that time the assistant comes out and tells coach they are about to take him out. Me to assistant: "Make him run after he gets done." He looks at me like I'm crazy.
For the next 3 years son's pitch count never gets over 100. But son and I pay the price in several ways. Coach still hates me to this day. And bad-mouths son when he gets a chance.
Chapter 3.
Son is pitcher at Top 20 school. In your face coach. He succeeded in spite of you.
quote:Originally posted by Coach May:
The player approaches the coach first. And he doesnt say "My private pitching coach says " - or - "the people of the HSBBW said". He simply says "Coach my arm still feels fatigued from throwing so many pitches in my last outing. I feel that I need more rest between starts and when I reach 90 pitches etc , I start to feel I fatigue and my mechanics suffer. I want to help the team anyway I can but I feel that I am throwing too many pitches when I pitch and I feel I need more time between starts."
Now understand if your son is getting this many innings he must be an important cog in the operation. The coach if he is any coach at all is going to listen and he is going to be receptive. If he goes off and tells the kid he is going to do what he wants him to do then the parent has to step in on the players behalf. If he still takes that attitude then maybe its time for a transfer?
You can sit back and be afraid of the coach and take your chances if you are in this type of situation. Or you can do the right thing for your kid. Thats up to you. If a coach is throwing a kid to death that should tell you all you need to know about what type of coach you are dealing with in the first place. Have your son step up. You step up if that doesnt work. And if you choose to not step up , then be quiet and take your medicine.
Danny good post. The coach makes the call because he is the coach. He decides what the pitch count will be and he decides when a kid will come back and pitch. But that does not mean it is reasonable. Now we might not agree with all the coaches decisions but if they are not ridiculous then I am one that would say stay out of it and let the man coach.
But I was responding to a post about a kid throwing 250 pitches in a 7 day span. That is simply ridiculous. That imo can not be defended. I understand that some kids are not mature enough to approach their HS coach in this manner or on this type of matter. That is why it is important to talk to your child and assist him in these type of situations if they do in fact happen.
I am no different than any other coach I sure dont want parents or anyone else trying to tell me how to run my program or team. I dont have a problem with suggestions if they are presented at the right time in the right way. But this situation is entirely different imo.
But I was responding to a post about a kid throwing 250 pitches in a 7 day span. That is simply ridiculous. That imo can not be defended. I understand that some kids are not mature enough to approach their HS coach in this manner or on this type of matter. That is why it is important to talk to your child and assist him in these type of situations if they do in fact happen.
I am no different than any other coach I sure dont want parents or anyone else trying to tell me how to run my program or team. I dont have a problem with suggestions if they are presented at the right time in the right way. But this situation is entirely different imo.
MTH: your story reminds me of one my son went thru.
Game was a blowout early so coach takes out a lot of starters, so my son is sitting in the dugout and anyway all of sudden the pitcher can't get anybody out and you guys know how these things happen, it was 12-0 one minute and 12-8 the next.
So coach tells my son to go in and pitch with NO Warmups at all (he gets his 8, probably 6 or 7 because the umps want the heck out of there by now). Well anyway he can't find the strike zone and its 12-12 when he gets yanked.
I told my son, "don't worry about it, he won't hold that against you the way he ran you out there with no bullpen" Son says, "oh yes he will"
Son was right. He didn't see the mound again that year (which was fine, I figure it saved his arm some and he still got to play middle inf.)...
I had respected that coach and figured he would say "hey man I feel bad about sending him out there like that" but he never did say that.
Game was a blowout early so coach takes out a lot of starters, so my son is sitting in the dugout and anyway all of sudden the pitcher can't get anybody out and you guys know how these things happen, it was 12-0 one minute and 12-8 the next.
So coach tells my son to go in and pitch with NO Warmups at all (he gets his 8, probably 6 or 7 because the umps want the heck out of there by now). Well anyway he can't find the strike zone and its 12-12 when he gets yanked.
I told my son, "don't worry about it, he won't hold that against you the way he ran you out there with no bullpen" Son says, "oh yes he will"
Son was right. He didn't see the mound again that year (which was fine, I figure it saved his arm some and he still got to play middle inf.)...
I had respected that coach and figured he would say "hey man I feel bad about sending him out there like that" but he never did say that.
quote:I get a call on my cell from the scorekeeper
Now scorekeepers call parents?
quote:Originally posted by Will:quote:I get a call on my cell from the scorekeeper
Now scorekeepers call parents?
I think most of them are on Twitter.
Its only a matter of time before a major law suit is filed on behalf of a former pitcher against a School District. I watched a 18 yr old senior get 133 today with two weeks of throwing following the basketball playoffs. First League game of the year, second start. Coaches like this are simply arrogant and bofoons, as dangerous as a pedofile doing long term damage to a young man's body. Lock a couple up for abuse and fine the school district a years taxes and maybe they'll stop trashing young men's arms. What the hell qualifies an ex-medical supply salesman who was selected as the HS Coach to know more than AMSI and all the generally accepted pitching limits. By the way, he gave up 5 in the 6th after leading 5 to 1 in the 5th with 103 on the books, team lost 6 to 5.
How did anybody survive without pitch counts back when? Yes i know I am old and coached back when dinosaurs roamed so bear with me. common sense. common sense common sense. If the kid is not getting people out you get him out of there. Pitchers throw a lot of pitches for a reason. they are struggling. when I coached i did not have to know a kid threw 35 pitches in an inning to know he is not effective. I think we are discussing the pitch count thing because some coaches dont have common sense. There are now pitching restrictions such as pitch counts and inning pitched etc etc. Maybe the other sports will follow such as a football coach has to limit the number of carries for a running back or basketball players can only play so many minutes. who knows?
I think the pitch count aspect has evolved out of the LL abuse of arms--they instituted an inning count---then others went to pitch counts ---BUT -- a 30 pitch count in one inning is not the same as a 30 pitch count in two inning nor a 30 pitch count in three innings.
The pitch aspect for me has gone over the top with many coaches not knowing how to interpret it nor do pitchers parents undertsand it rspecially at the younger levels
WILL---perhaps we need to better educate the HS coaches and all the coaches at lower levels---for the most part the coahces at see at the HS travel team level are pretty good at not overusing pitchers---not to say it does not happen is an untruth but as a whole because it does.
The other thing is that HS coaches do not develop or carry enough pitchers on their rosters---here you could have a mandatory number where pitchers are designated and must be used.
The pitch aspect for me has gone over the top with many coaches not knowing how to interpret it nor do pitchers parents undertsand it rspecially at the younger levels
WILL---perhaps we need to better educate the HS coaches and all the coaches at lower levels---for the most part the coahces at see at the HS travel team level are pretty good at not overusing pitchers---not to say it does not happen is an untruth but as a whole because it does.
The other thing is that HS coaches do not develop or carry enough pitchers on their rosters---here you could have a mandatory number where pitchers are designated and must be used.
quote:How did anybody survive without pitch counts back when? Yes i know I am old and coached back when dinosaurs roamed so bear with me. common sense. common sense common sense.
----------------------------------------------------
i think back in the day all kids threw more. rocks, footballs......... heck it was our only entertainment. but arms were stronger ,or it seemed as though they were.
back in the day players didn't have arm injury's per say. they just stopped playing, think how many kids you played with that just didn't play anymore?
my son had tj surgery in 06. we played something/threw every day in the yard. went down and skimmed rocks etc. cause it's what i did as a kid. so i feel his arm was stronger than most, but i now know he was over used in his legion season's. pitched many complete games, but our legion is 9 innings. well over 130/40 but i think the slider was his real down fall. but who know's. now i know better.
when grown men are limited to 100 pitches, common sense should say that's planty for a 14 to 17 yr old. i know it should be a number you work up to, especially in our cold weather states.
as my son's were playing we never looked much further than tommorrow;s game. today LL are looking for a good signing bonus?? enjoy your son's time playing,it will be over some day. watch the over use though, we do strange things for a 6 buck trophy.
20 Dad
I agree. We always were throwing something or other. seems like today everything has to be organized. In my youth if you had a ball and a wall you were throwing.
I agree. We always were throwing something or other. seems like today everything has to be organized. In my youth if you had a ball and a wall you were throwing.
the link below is a to boyd's world. a really fun site. this particular link is to dubious pitch counts in the collegiate ranks.
http://www.boydsworld.com/data/pitchcount.html
http://www.boydsworld.com/data/pitchcount.html
What a tired old concept “pitch counts” are for us at the HS level, we tell the HS coach to not worry about pitch counts at any height because our mechanics are non-injurious and we come into season peaked for a whole game plus. Pitchers with Marshall mechanics can throw up to 100’s of pitches before suffering from diminished capacity (fatigue). Severe fatigue is recoverable with in 24 hours with this age group like with all athletes.
I see that everybody here including the HS coaches still believe that the word rest be used instead of injury recovery which is actually what is going on here. When you confuse rest to recover from diminished capacity with no physical activity to recover from injury you actually go in reverse (atrophy) with regards to physical maintenance which leads to continual re-atrophy.
Our mechanics allow us to pitch and train every day even the day after a long game and the morning before a game to maintain physical peak the way athletes should perform and train.
There is no magic number that will protect your child from injurious traditional mechanics as seen with the same injuries that catchers suffer (from ballistic throws) because of their grabbing to the back of the head at initial force the same way traditional pitchers do it. I have seen pitchers and catchers blow up with very few pitches or throws on a particular day at the start of season or at the end. Traditional throwers do not need rest, they need non-injurious mechanics and that’s a fact.
Tiredness has nothing to do with it. They are flat out injured.
If you continue to throw the ball with injurious mechanics this cycle of injury recovery never lets you train or perform injury free.
This is impossible to rest and work at the same time, understand the real problem here, flawed mechanics. Flawed general non-specific training techniques like Olympic lifts
And such.
What is the proper recovery time (rest & atrophy) for light to severe inflammation the gateway sign for injurious accumulative affect? How much did the UCL micro tear? How much did the labrum grind? No amount of time recovers a torn labrum and it takes way to much time with micro torn UCL’s to calcify. You are all guessing!!! If you cannot pitch the next day after a game you are injured not tired.
continual recovering from previous injury is always a downward spiral to oblivion.
This is a fact with traditional mechanics only!! Non-injurious mechanics need no withdrawal service they will only build up the account. This sounds a lot like Dr.Andrews quack statement about bullets in the gun when he has no clue how to fix the injurious culprit. The answer is not limiting pitch counts more and more because it is not fair to pitchers whom posses non-injurious mechanics.
Most injuries occur in colleges after these coaches whom know little about arm care teach these kids to throw supinated cutters and sliders and perpetuate these injurious centripetal mechanics.
Traditional HS pitchers and others should be held to no more than 3 times through the line up and because of their biological age is normally under 19 they should pitch no more than once a week competitively and only during spring and summer. If you do not know what damage has been produced previously, if you do not know what causes particular injuries from mechanics and because you do not take meticulous discomfort reports to actually know because everybody is affected at a different level there can be no correct number.
And who would be the expert witnesses, I’ll tell you Dr.fleisig and Andrews at ASMI or House at the NPA would not show up with their flawed scientific methods of attaining pitch count recommendations that have failed miserably along with their continuing mechanical break downs.
Is it these men’s fault or the parent’s responsibility to protect their children from our historic past and present day mechanical beliefs? If you have bought your mechanics by
attending a professionals services Sue him not the HS coach.
Because generally accepted pitching limits are anecdotal and as ridiculous as the injurious traditional pitching mechanics are acceptable. ASMI has no clue as to why pitchers injure their arms although they have been told and anybody associated with propagating what they put out like Rick Peterson and Dr.Andrews with their new Pathomechanics are the ones that need to be sued. I don’t know if all of you have noticed but ASMI and the NPA after 20 years of researching are still teaching forms of the traditional mechanics that are still destroying arms and shoulders, hence the continuing hashing out of old topics like this false pitch count over use diagnosis. By not putting the blame where it actually resides (mechanics) you all will be talking about this again next year and the next.
I see that everybody here including the HS coaches still believe that the word rest be used instead of injury recovery which is actually what is going on here. When you confuse rest to recover from diminished capacity with no physical activity to recover from injury you actually go in reverse (atrophy) with regards to physical maintenance which leads to continual re-atrophy.
Our mechanics allow us to pitch and train every day even the day after a long game and the morning before a game to maintain physical peak the way athletes should perform and train.
There is no magic number that will protect your child from injurious traditional mechanics as seen with the same injuries that catchers suffer (from ballistic throws) because of their grabbing to the back of the head at initial force the same way traditional pitchers do it. I have seen pitchers and catchers blow up with very few pitches or throws on a particular day at the start of season or at the end. Traditional throwers do not need rest, they need non-injurious mechanics and that’s a fact.
quote:“And then they leave the HS season with a worn out arm and move on to showcase ball. Then they are trying to impress the college coaches with an arm that is just flat out tired.”
Tiredness has nothing to do with it. They are flat out injured.
quote:“Its a never ending cycle.”
If you continue to throw the ball with injurious mechanics this cycle of injury recovery never lets you train or perform injury free.
quote:“They come out of the summer season and instead of resting and working to strengthen the arm they move into the fall season.”
This is impossible to rest and work at the same time, understand the real problem here, flawed mechanics. Flawed general non-specific training techniques like Olympic lifts
And such.
quote:“When you are pitching and you dont have the proper recovery time.”
What is the proper recovery time (rest & atrophy) for light to severe inflammation the gateway sign for injurious accumulative affect? How much did the UCL micro tear? How much did the labrum grind? No amount of time recovers a torn labrum and it takes way to much time with micro torn UCL’s to calcify. You are all guessing!!! If you cannot pitch the next day after a game you are injured not tired.
quote:“you are not doing the proper things between starts to prepare for the next outing”
continual recovering from previous injury is always a downward spiral to oblivion.
quote:“you are taking money out of the bank and your not putting any back in. At some point and time the account is over drawn. That is just a fact.”
This is a fact with traditional mechanics only!! Non-injurious mechanics need no withdrawal service they will only build up the account. This sounds a lot like Dr.Andrews quack statement about bullets in the gun when he has no clue how to fix the injurious culprit. The answer is not limiting pitch counts more and more because it is not fair to pitchers whom posses non-injurious mechanics.
quote:“College folks have been down this road too often. They don't care about holding hands. They care about healthy elbows and shoulders.”
Most injuries occur in colleges after these coaches whom know little about arm care teach these kids to throw supinated cutters and sliders and perpetuate these injurious centripetal mechanics.
Traditional HS pitchers and others should be held to no more than 3 times through the line up and because of their biological age is normally under 19 they should pitch no more than once a week competitively and only during spring and summer. If you do not know what damage has been produced previously, if you do not know what causes particular injuries from mechanics and because you do not take meticulous discomfort reports to actually know because everybody is affected at a different level there can be no correct number.
quote:“Its only a matter of time before a major law suit is filed on behalf of a former pitcher against a School District.”
And who would be the expert witnesses, I’ll tell you Dr.fleisig and Andrews at ASMI or House at the NPA would not show up with their flawed scientific methods of attaining pitch count recommendations that have failed miserably along with their continuing mechanical break downs.
quote:“Lock a couple up for abuse and fine the school district a years taxes and maybe they'll stop trashing young men's arms.”
Is it these men’s fault or the parent’s responsibility to protect their children from our historic past and present day mechanical beliefs? If you have bought your mechanics by
attending a professionals services Sue him not the HS coach.
quote:“What the hell qualifies an ex-medical supply salesman who was selected as the HS Coach to know more than AMSI and all the generally accepted pitching limits.”
Because generally accepted pitching limits are anecdotal and as ridiculous as the injurious traditional pitching mechanics are acceptable. ASMI has no clue as to why pitchers injure their arms although they have been told and anybody associated with propagating what they put out like Rick Peterson and Dr.Andrews with their new Pathomechanics are the ones that need to be sued. I don’t know if all of you have noticed but ASMI and the NPA after 20 years of researching are still teaching forms of the traditional mechanics that are still destroying arms and shoulders, hence the continuing hashing out of old topics like this false pitch count over use diagnosis. By not putting the blame where it actually resides (mechanics) you all will be talking about this again next year and the next.
yardbird
if every body used this method all along........i'd still be playing.
to each his own.
if every body used this method all along........i'd still be playing.
to each his own.
Thought the Marshallites were going to be sticking to their own thread in pitching. Let's not degenerate another good discussion.
We threw more and pitched competitively less. We didn't throw to excess. We threw until we were done throwing. If we got tired we stopped throwing.quote:How did anybody survive without pitch counts back when?
We also didn't pitch travel ball every year from 9U to 18U. We didn't have travel ball. LL was 9-12. I got to pitch for the first time when I was twelve. Then I played Babe Ruth. It was 13-15. No way was a 13yo going to pitch. Then I pitched high school and Legion. Once again I didn't pitch at sixteen. I pitched at seventeen and eighteen. I entered soph year of high school with about 350 innings on my arm. How many innings does the kid who's been the pitching stud in travel ball from 9U to 15U have on his arm over the same period? I'll guess twice as much.
We didn't need pitch counts. We had sanity.
And all the throwing we did built up our arms---and as RJM states we were throwing not pitching---thats a big difference
Thats a good point TR and RJM.
Not only did we throw to build our arm strength that allowed us to throw all day and mix a weekend of pitching, we played whiffle ball too. I remember one dad telling his kid not to play whiffleball because it willl ruin his arm so he couldn't play with a bunch of kids who were just messing around.
We played stoop ball; punch ball; stick ball; baseball with full teams; baseball with minimal players declaring the field they are hitting
We also played rundowns---with a runner and two fielders
We played catch with all sort of innovations
Big problem today is there are no neighborhoods like we had back then--kids used to knock on each others doors looking for kids to join the game--we even had nighborhood teams--this block against another block
Come to think of it I think we had more fun than the kids today
We also played rundowns---with a runner and two fielders
We played catch with all sort of innovations
Big problem today is there are no neighborhoods like we had back then--kids used to knock on each others doors looking for kids to join the game--we even had nighborhood teams--this block against another block
Come to think of it I think we had more fun than the kids today
Not to get off topic, but did a lot of the games kids used to play in the old days go by different names depending on what part of the country you grew up?
For example if I mentioned games like pickle, 500, Indian ball, or burn out, would any of those things mean anything to someone who lived elsewhere. Or did each part of the country have their own games or maybe named the same games differently?
We would take infield... all day!
Those really were the good old days.
For example if I mentioned games like pickle, 500, Indian ball, or burn out, would any of those things mean anything to someone who lived elsewhere. Or did each part of the country have their own games or maybe named the same games differently?
We would take infield... all day!
Those really were the good old days.
yep, all those names were used up here.
we used to play with just a few kids,everything hit to left/right field was an out. pitch to lefty's from third base. we were very resourceful i guess.
we used to play with just a few kids,everything hit to left/right field was an out. pitch to lefty's from third base. we were very resourceful i guess.
How many know what pickle was; stoop ball and punch ball ?
You know, I think I may write something that will get a few people charged up.
There comes a time when the parent MUST step in talk to the coach. I know all of the cliches about "helicopter", "cut the umbilical"... blah blah blah!
There are absolutely coaches out there that will abuse players in many different fashions, be it pitch counts, verbal abuse, setting them up for failure... etc!
The title coach is no different than Dr, lawyer, teacher, or boss; there are certain circumstances when if a parent does not step in and speak with a coach than I feel they are not doing what parents should do and protect or stand up for their child's best interest.
Coaches can be very wrong and there are plenty that take what a player says or questions and forgets about it 2 seconds later.
Almost to a man on here I hear time and time again, do not interfere or ever speak to a coach. I disagree in some instances (it should be last resort) but to never talk or stand up for your young man (child) is irresponsible.
There comes a time when the parent MUST step in talk to the coach. I know all of the cliches about "helicopter", "cut the umbilical"... blah blah blah!
There are absolutely coaches out there that will abuse players in many different fashions, be it pitch counts, verbal abuse, setting them up for failure... etc!
The title coach is no different than Dr, lawyer, teacher, or boss; there are certain circumstances when if a parent does not step in and speak with a coach than I feel they are not doing what parents should do and protect or stand up for their child's best interest.
Coaches can be very wrong and there are plenty that take what a player says or questions and forgets about it 2 seconds later.
Almost to a man on here I hear time and time again, do not interfere or ever speak to a coach. I disagree in some instances (it should be last resort) but to never talk or stand up for your young man (child) is irresponsible.
We didn't really play much pickle in my neighborhood, but lots of baseball. We'd play with tennis balls in our back yard. Corner of the garden was 1st base, just beyond the tree was 2nd base, corner of the house was 3rd base. Hit it over the fence was a homerun. Hitting it to "centerfield" was quite a trick however due to the tree. We played the ball out of the tree.
We would also play at another house down the street with similar rules. We would sometimes play with as few as 4 or as many as 6 or 7. And we would play on and on and on and on.
Also, a couple of us would play catch for HOURS on end sometimes. We'd play super long toss and there were days where we'd long toss for probably a good 45 minutes or more. And we had days where we'd go out and throw short distance but goof off for a couple hours.
If we weren't playing baseball, we were playing roller hockey on a driveway. That was normally pretty sloppy because the driveway was super small and we normally only had one goal.
All of the guys that I did this stuff with were at least 4 years older than me. We were outside most days during the summers all day long and a bunch year round for probably 5 or 6 years.
We would also play at another house down the street with similar rules. We would sometimes play with as few as 4 or as many as 6 or 7. And we would play on and on and on and on.
Also, a couple of us would play catch for HOURS on end sometimes. We'd play super long toss and there were days where we'd long toss for probably a good 45 minutes or more. And we had days where we'd go out and throw short distance but goof off for a couple hours.
If we weren't playing baseball, we were playing roller hockey on a driveway. That was normally pretty sloppy because the driveway was super small and we normally only had one goal.
All of the guys that I did this stuff with were at least 4 years older than me. We were outside most days during the summers all day long and a bunch year round for probably 5 or 6 years.
where would we have been without electrical tape? duct tape would have been the nads.