Extra Frequent Flyer Miles anyone?

"a few comments"

Goodwill Series Inc invited this young man to join our SSK International team in the 1st USA Labor Day Tournament. At this time we have 24 players interested and USA has a roster limit of 20 players.

KT333 is a middle infielder and he will play, if he arrives "on time" by bus, car or plane.

Our coaches are Charles Aliano [Cubs scout], Scott Braun [College Coach] and Rob Williams [former Mariners scout for China] and now Promotions Manager to the MLB for SSK. All our coaches pay their way to
North Carolina.

Each player pays $400.00 which includes hotel, entry fee and equipment. GWS Inc will actually lose money on this trip. We have players from California, Texas, Florida, Northeast and Midwest joining this team.

Personally, I do not regard this as a "showcase", but a USA Baseball event. Maybe pro scouts and college coaches attend, however my only concern is that the players we select are athletic and will adjust to the competition and to our coaches.
"We will not send a team to USA Tournament to lose".

For the 17 years with the Area Code games, we never charged the players for tryouts or the games and in several situations I personally donated miles to a player who needed assistance. His agent NEVER repaid
this contribution.

All a person needs to reply is NO, I do not have miles to give. This player communicates to me, not his parent, "I respect this".

Bob Williams

I find this thread interesting especially with the current economic and political situation. I know there are many people on this board that give and give and give. Baseball parents for the most part are great and caring people. I'm sure there are many here that have given frequent flier miles, money, time and whatever else they can spare, helping those that need help. Not willing to help is not the problem. I think the "asking" for and "expecting" something is the sticking point. Most people are asked daily to give, donate and contribute until we feel as if half of the worlds' population depends on the other half just for their existence. While I do give and get pleasure from giving I also know giving can create an unhealthy dependancy. To fulfill Cleveland Dad's prophesy, I can remember when "earning" used to be an important part of "childhood development". Allowances were not given --- but earned for "chores". Today's youth seem to be more into the instant gratification no matter how it comes down and has created a different attitude than existed in the past.

Bottom line: #1. This is a "WANT" and not a "NEED". #2. If my son were to come on an internet website and ask for financial assistance to do something that benefitted ONLY himself, I would be disappointed. I'll always believe as Lou Holtz said ----- "There's no such thing as a free lunch!"

Not sure anybody was questioning the validity of the event, just the manner in which this young man was hoping to help himself get there. Would it be OK to say "I DO have miles to spare, but I'm not giving them to YOU for THIS?" Just curious. My kids, when they were younger, would ask if I had any money. I would say "yes - but I don't have any that I want to give to you right now". If you're going to be bold enough to ask, you better have the fortitude to hear the answers... and don't expect all of them to be positive.

PopUp's post was weird... not sure where he was going with that, except it sounds like he's a bit disappointed in his own son's outcome.

Feel free to sing along.....

Let me tell you sonny... let me set you straight
You kids today ain't never had it rough
Always had everything handed to you on a silver plate
You lazy brats think nothing's good enough

Well, nobody ever drove me to school when it was ninety degrees below
We had to walk buck naked through forty miles of snow
Worked in the coal mines twenty two hours a day for just half a cent
Had to sell my internal organs just to pay the rent

When I was your age. When I was your age
When I was your age. When I was your age

Let me tell you something, you whiny little snot
There's something wrong with all you kids today
You just don't appreciate all the things you've got
We were hungry, broken and miserable and we liked it fine that way

There were seventy three of us living in a cardboard box
All I got for Christmas was a lousy bag of rocks
Every night for dinner, we had a big 'ol chunk of dirt
If we were really good, we didn't get dessert

When I was your age. When I was your age
When I was your age. When I was your age

Didn't have no telephone, didn't have no FAX machine
All we had was a couple cans and a crummy piece of string
Didn't have no swimming pool when I was just a lad
Our neighbor's septic tank was the closest thing we had
Didn't have no dental floss, had to use old rusty nails
Didn't have Nintendo, we just poured salt on snails
Didn't have no water bed, had to sleep on broken glass
Didn't have no lawnmower, we used our teeth to cut the grass

What's the matter now, sonny, you say you don't believe this junk?
You think my story's wearin' kinda thin?
I tell you one thing, I never was such a disrespectful punk
Back in my time, we had a thing called discipline

My dad would whoop us every night till a quarter after twelve
Then he'd get too tired and he'd make us whoop ourselves
Then he'd chop me into pieces and play frisbee with my brain
And let me tell ya, Junior, you never heard me complain

When I was your age. When I was your age
When I was your age. When I was your age


-Weird Al Yankovic

They don't call him "Weird" for nothing!

Oh Spizz that is funnnn-eeeeeee.

quote:

Originally posted by Fungo:
Bottom line: #1. This is a "WANT" and not a "NEED". #2. If my son were to come on an internet website and ask for financial assistance to do something that benefitted ONLY himself, I would be disappointed. I'll always believe as Lou Holtz said ----- "There's no such thing as a free lunch!"

I agree.
I also agree that baseball people are really good people and give freely for those in need, not always those that want. CD brings up a good point, there have been people here who have asked and most likely received, but not just for themselves, and perhaps the responses have been a bit too harsh. But again the difference is wanting vs. needing.

That was my point about the relationship to a trip to cooperstown, is this something that is wanted or something that is needed.

The financial crunch has hit everyone, I know of some folks here who could use our help to pay for groceries or medical bills, that's a need. But they aren't asking.

If the parents feel this is not a necessity for the young man, I am not sure why I should feel any differently.

If you have the talent, the fortitude, the grades to go to the next level, you will find a way to do it, evenwithout spending lots of bucks to do it.

Tx,
I am wondering, if your kids come to you wanting something to you automatically give it to them?

I am not sure, 3FG is the rule man, but I was always under the understanding that one has to be very careful who they accept "gifts" from, according to NCAA rules. This would be considered a gift?

quote:

I am wondering, if your kids come to you wanting something to you automatically give it to them?

Of course not, but I don't automatically say no and badger them into submission for asking either. The young man here simply asked about excess FFM...I personally don't consider that asking for money or a handout as excess means unused that normally expire. I may be wrong but I belive the IRS views them that way. The young man never said this was a need either. He clearly said up front his mother considered this a want there wasn't room for and he was looking creatively for ways to make it a less expensive want.

Since when did wants become by definition wrong or bad. Wants vs needs are always defined differently by different people...largely based on their resources. I can tell you the homeless people in South Florida would consider that PC you are using is a want not a need. If you're a college student, or use it for your job it's a need. There's nothing right or wrong about either position...it's perspective.

Let me say, that I am really glad to see Fungo posting again as he is an ICON here.

Sometimes, people post things that they regret and the part Fungo refers to in my post, I now regret and I am sorry for that. I happen to know enough about Fungo's background to know that you couldn't have had a harder childhood and know that there are much worse things than missing out on a baseball event. Sometimes not getting what you want is indeed the real blessing.

Other than the prophesy part of my post, what I really wanted to say was said. I thought KT was taken to the woodshed on this one and I felt for him. Since he also worked, I didn't feel it was untoward to ask for what he did.

What I really wanted to say however is that other than a member occasionally asking us to pray for them or keep them in our thoughts, I am not sure anyone should use our boards to solicit members for anything. Posting is a privilege imho and should be used for "giving" our knowledge/experiences to others. I believe we should not open Pandora's box and potentially ruin the good thing we have here.

Obvoiusly, there are differences of opinion on this one. Every now and then, it is good to have a thread like this one on the hsbbweb imho so that we can discuss our respective differences.

quote:

Originally posted by Bob Williams:
"a few comments"

Each player pays $400.00 which includes hotel, entry fee and equipment. GWS Inc will actually lose money on this trip.

I'm not sure what relevance this has to this conversation, but, since you brought it up.

You take in $8,000 put kids 4 to a room at a special rate, pay a tournament entry fee and buy some balls and lose money?

Am I the only one that doesn't get the math here? Am I missing something?

quote:

Originally posted by Tx-Husker:

quote:

I am wondering, if your kids come to you wanting something to you automatically give it to them?

Of course not, but I don't automatically say no and badger them into submission for asking either. The young man here simply asked about excess FFM...I personally don't consider that asking for money or a handout as excess means unused that normally expire. I may be wrong but I belive the IRS views them that way. The young man never said this was a need either. He clearly said up front his mother considered this a want there wasn't room for and he was looking creatively for ways to make it a less expensive want.

Since when did wants become by definition wrong or bad. Wants vs needs are always defined differently by different people...largely based on their resources. I can tell you the homeless people in South Florida would consider that PC you are using is a want not a need. If you're a college student, or use it for your job it's a need. There's nothing right or wrong about either position...it's perspective.

I want and need a month long cruise to nowhere, but that doesn't mean it's something that is important right now. And I even have the points on my american express card to do it. Not sure if you get that or not.

Regardless, I do not feel asking here was appropriate, that's just my opinion, and we all seem to have different ones on this subject.

CPLZ;

We will placed 2 players per room for $110.00 per night per room x 13 rooms [including the coaches] x 4 nights = $5720.00.
Add new jerseys and helmets at $800.00
Add the Entry fee of $600.00
Add insurance, shipping bats and rental van for player "pick up" = $800.00
Add one dozen maple bats $840.00
Coaches meals $350.00
Total $9,110.00

Is this Correct????

No administration figured.

Would you like a "breakdown"of the Area Code games for 17 years and the tryouts costs. Field rental
in Long Beach alone was $15,000 for 5 days.

Personally, I should have never started the Area Code games.

Bob Williams

BOB


There is no need to defend what you have done as you still do----

quote:

Personally, I should have never started the Area Code games.

Yes you should have. How many players have been recruited from this venue.Hundreds and hundreds?
Bob there will always be someone who is bent because the process isnt fair in their eyes.You and perfect game and other venues will always be up against that type of criticism.it doesnt take away from what you do.
If a player is good, and isnt included in these events and continues to get better, good things can happen to them later down the road.Not all players are studs at 16-17 years old, many take longer.
You provided a great venue, free of charge for that matter,dont think it was all in vain becasue people want to trash talk it becasue they think its political.
Life is political at times, sometimes it is who you know and dont know, sometimes players get lucky and some dont.I still think scouts will find talented players regardless.
I think what hapened to some of these events is everyone thinks their kid should be invited.Many kids arent good enough that do get invited, but it happens.It doesnt take away from what you began and it is still a good thing.

Fanofgame,
Area code is much different now than it was when Bob ran them, I think that is what he meant by it.

maybe off base/topic but this is from my perspective about area code.

what feels like a hundred years ago, my son was invited to an area code tryout in harrisburg pa. it was run by the expo's.

other than the pitchers being treated like leper's . as far as getting seen,it was the best thing that had happened to him. he didn't make the team but the responces from that 2 innings was incredible, absolutley incredible.

it was free, as a matter of fact there was a vending machine w/ soda, water etc. one of the college recuiters didn't have the buck to get a water, because he spent all his money to get the list. (the least i could do was buy him a water.)

i think that's the best way to run a showcase let the kids in free and charge the recruiters, but i never was a good business man.

bob, alot of parents/players owe you a debt of gratitude. let me say thank you for all you've done.

quote:

PopUp's post was weird... not sure where he was going with that, except it sounds like he's a bit disappointed in his own son's outcome.

If that is the explanation... WOW!

All kt333 was doing was checking to see if anyone on this board is in that situation and had frequent flyer miles to burn. I give him a lot of credit for having the guts to ask if anyone happened to be in that situation....and recall he said he has a job.

Perhaps if he had mentioned he was working in the OP, and came on to find out if anybody had miles they weren't using that he could use if they're going to waste, he might not have gotten raked over the coals.

In that light, I certainly could cut him some slack

Don't sweat it kid....Good luck

kt333

quote:

Family is not in the best shape financially.

I was invited to join SSK's national team for the USA Labor Day Cup this September in NC. This can open a lot of doors.

Mom does not want to spend another dollar on something that is not a necessity.

Any help is much appreciated.


Thanks

I thought kt333 was very gracious in his request.

EH

Again, this is not about the cost of this event, the quality of this event, the necessity of this event, the history of this event. It's your gig. Do what you want, charge what you want. Players who can afford to attend are welcome to do so. That is not what this is about.

quote:

That is not what this is about.

What is it about??

Players since of entitlement?

I think it's about a player who want's to play baseball at a higher level.

And is asking for help.
nothing else.


I believe they're's a thing in baseball called (Paying Back).
Meaning, if your going to take from the game.
You must be willing to give back to the game.

Who knows how kt333 is willing to give back in the future, if he is given something today??

Give a kid a break.

EH

quote:

Who knows how kt333 is willing to give back in the future, if he is given something today??

I guarantee you there are several here he won't give frequent flyer miles to.

TR; EH; Fan of the Game; TPM; 20 Dad;

Thank you for your kind comments. I truly appreciate
the communication.

After a number of years with the Area Code games and the numerous phone calls, it was time to depart.

However, I remember the phone call from Bobby Bradley and Albert Pujols. Each express a "thank you" for finding me. "I wanted to "out scout" the pro scouts.

Natually, I will assist KT333 to realize his dream.

20 Dad, I remember the tryout and my 1st remarks to the Expos scout. "Do you need my help"? Scout Smith, who later we sent to Australia wit our teams said NO!

Each tryout, each Area Code game provided stories
with Scouts, Scouting directors, Agents and College Coaches.

However, my greatest stories are from Australia, Korea, Japan and the Peoples Republic of China.

Bob Williams

quote

________________________________________________________________________________________
I don't know KT333 from Boo; but this post by Pop Up offended me!

- How do you know he would be a "roster filler"?
- When did KT333 ever say "hanging out w friends, watching TV & playing X-Box were his passions?
- What does your son's time laying around playing xbox have to do with this discussion?
________________________________________________________________________________________

fsmjunior, I see by your profile you still have time to change things. In my post I said "some", I did not imply KT333 was a roster filler, my son yes. But that is another story. The X box is my son's passion, I was using that as an example. I should have used this phrase. "I know a kid who is on son's team who plays X box all day long". I again did not say it was Kt's. Sorry the truth hurts, you have 4 more years to go before your son goes from having fun at baseball to working at baseball just to keep playing. My point is to stay in baseball and be above average, one has to give up other hobbies, is KT willing to do this, if not why spend precious resources.

The only person who should have been offended would be KT, unless your son fits that category? KT333, if I offended you, I apologize.

________________________________________________________________________________________

My $.02.

I agree with TX and CD. His family is in a financial bind at this time and he is working, so I wouldn't classify him as a slacker. KT's posts are articulate and his asking for FFM is actually creative IMO.

We have had other members ask for donations to offset travel and other baseball related expenses and many of us happily donated. kt is asking for extra frequent flyer miles that, most likely, did not cost the person owning them anything since an employer probably payed for the flights.

Good luck kt and keep up the creative thinking.

quote:

Originally posted by Pop Up Hitter dad:
fsmjunior, I see by your profile you still have time to change things. In my post I said "some", I did not imply KT333 was a roster filler, my son yes. But that is another story. The X box is my son's passion, I was using that as an example. I should have used this phrase. "I know a kid who is on son's team who plays X box all day long". I again did not say it was Kt's. Sorry the truth hurts, you have 4 more years to go before your son goes from having fun at baseball to working at baseball just to keep playing. My point is to stay in baseball and be above average, one has to give up other hobbies, is KT willing to do this, if not why spend precious resources.

The only person who should have been offended would be KT, unless your son fits that category? KT333, if I offended you, I apologize.

Pop Up, please, you certainly implied this young man would be a roster filler. You did say "IF" when asking if XBOX and hanging w friends was his passion to not go. These did offend me; a lot of kids do work hard these days, but it seems easy for adults to pile on and accuse them of being lazy.

As for me, I need to update my profile; my son is a rising Junior and is playing american Legion "A"s this summmer. Work ethic is not an issue with him on the baseball filed or in school. Oh and by the way he plays X Box as well and I am OK with that.

I have some FFM but haven't redeemed them yet. Doesn't it cost $$$ to transfer or share miles?

quote:

I have some FFM but haven't redeemed them yet. Doesn't it cost $$$ to transfer or share miles?

Not if you book it for him. If you want to give the miles to someone else for them to do it themselves, they yes I believe you're right.

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:
I am not sure, 3FG is the rule man, but I was always under the understanding that one has to be very careful who they accept "gifts" from, according to NCAA rules. This would be considered a gift?

I don't know if this is relevant to kt333's situation, but it would be prudent to check the NCAA's rules before accepting anything.


...a major violation

...An Oklahome State University spokesman explained that the former player was on an out-of-state summer baseball roster in 2007, and during that summer attended a church. The player did not own a vehicle and had money problems, the spokesman said.

Months later, in December 2007, church members contributed to the purchase of a used car for the player. The OSU spokesman said the car was a 10-year-old model valued at less than $5,000.

OSU's NCAA compliance office initially determined that the car did not qualify as an impermissible gift because the church had no connection to Oklahoma State University. The university reported that the church had no history of OSU ticket purchases or donations.

Later, when OSU officials revisited the facts of the situation, the player was ruled ineligible for the 2008 season.

In the response to Hargis, the athletic department wrote that church members "have made clear that their gifts were motivated by their concern for the young man (and) not by his association to (OSU)." The OSU athletic department described the church's gift as "an innocent and charitable act."

fmsjunior, it appears you are in the thick of the recruiting merry go round. Playing Legion ball is what my son should have continued on, rather than travel.

Kids and X box are okay with me, when I mentioned it, I was referring to the excessive time some play on it. Evidently your son isn't as obsessed with it as others I know of. As others here have said, having good grades (above 3.2) will open many other doors for your son's choice of colleges. I say you are one of the lucky ones.

Best wishes for you and your son.

Sorry,
I didn't see the question about amateurism until now.

I don't think there is any problem with an individual or group providing airline tickets which are used for travel to and from a competition. In general, a player who is involved with an athletic practice or competition may be compensated for his actual expenses.

12.1.2.1.4.3 Expenses from Outside Team or Organization. Expenses received from an outside amateur sports team or organization in excess of actual and necessary travel, room and board expenses, and apparel and equipment (for individual and team use only from teams or organizations not affiliated with member institutions, including local sports clubs as set forth in Bylaw 13.11.2.3) for competition and practice held in preparation for such competition. Practice must be conducted in a continuous time period preceding the competition except for practice sessions conducted by a national team, which occasionally may be interrupted for specific periods of time preceding the competition.

As I read the OSU issue, the player received compensation (a car) which was likely valued higher than his actual expenses, long after the expenses were incurred. There is no direct connection between the car and the player's expenses. A reasonable interpretation is that the player was paid for his participation in the summer league.

Contrast that, for example, to a player who stays with a host family while playing in a summer league. He receives value (room and board) but it clearly doesn't exceed his expenses.

quote:

No I was not expecting anything. I just thought it couldn't hurt to at least ask.

It shouldn't.

I admire your initiative kid.
Where there is a will there is a way.

Ya might get a whole heck of alot of " no's " on this quest ( welcome to the real world )....but then again as we all know,..all it takes is ONE yes,...and you're on your way!!

This is a great site full of good people. If there's someone out there who can help ya,....I'd be willing to bet they will.

In the meantime,...keep working hard at making your dreams happen. You've got spunk and I think that's cool!!
Sounds to me that this event is pretty darn important to ya. I completely understand. Alot of us do.....baseball has a way of doing that.

quote:

Natually, I will assist KT333 to realize his dream.

.....speaking of good people,...KT333 you've got one of the " good ones " ( lets change that to great ones ) right there,....
Mr. Bob Williams.

quote:

Originally posted by 3FingeredGlove:
Sorry,
I didn't see the question about amateurism until now.

I don't think there is any problem with an individual or group providing airline tickets which are used for travel to and from a competition. In general, a player who is involved with an athletic practice or competition may be compensated for his actual expenses.

12.1.2.1.4.3 Expenses from Outside Team or Organization. [/b] travel, room and board expenses, and apparel and equipment (for individual and team use only from teams or organizations not affiliated with member institutions, including local sports clubs as set forth in Bylaw 13.11.2.3) for competition and practice held in preparation for such competition. Practice must be conducted in a continuous time period preceding the competition except for practice sessions conducted by a national team, which occasionally may be interrupted for specific periods of time preceding the competition.

3FG,
Here is where I would disagree with your assessment of "no problem" with this situation.

The operative wording in your quoted rule is, " Expenses received from an outside amateur sports team or organization in excess of actual and necessary". This does not refer to an individual. By accepting anything from an individual, it would preclude that player from attending any school the individual had any connection with...i.e. formerly attended, was friendly with the coaches, had other siblings or children attend, etc. In those scenarios, if the NCAA wishes to (and that is always the proviso of any NCAA rule...what they wish to enforce), they could make an argument for connection of benefit to institution.

CPLZ,
There are two ways in which a prospective student-athlete could have problems after accepting a benefit. 1) Amateurism and 2) Offers and Inducements related to recruiting. Your post seems to be combining elements of the two.

Article 12 refers to amateurism, and I continue to believe that accepting travel expenses for a baseball tournament does not cause a player to lose his amateur status. Nor does accepting reduced fees for participation on a travel team. The key here is that the player is not getting "paid".

Note that a player's amateur status is an attribute of the player himself and is independent of the institution that he attends.

As for Offers and Inducements, covered in Article 13, I'm not going to try to run through the ramifications of the rules. A highly technical reading of the rules would lead one to believe that anyone who participated in college sports at a D1 school may not provide any benefit to a high school kid (e.g. a ride home from school) without putting the kid, all of his friends, and his college into hot water.

No, the NCAA is not going to try to enforce that.

quote:

Originally posted by 3FingeredGlove:
CPLZ,
There are two ways in which a prospective student-athlete could have problems after accepting a benefit. 1) Amateurism and 2) Offers and Inducements related to recruiting. Your post seems to be combining elements of the two.

Article 12 refers to amateurism, and I continue to believe that accepting travel expenses for a baseball tournament does not cause a player to lose his amateur status. Nor does accepting reduced fees for participation on a travel team. The key here is that the player is not getting "paid".

Note that a player's amateur status is an attribute of the player himself and is independent of the institution that he attends.

As for Offers and Inducements, covered in Article 13, I'm not going to try to run through the ramifications of the rules. A highly technical reading of the rules would lead one to believe that anyone who participated in college sports at a D1 school may not provide any benefit to a high school kid (e.g. a ride home from school) without putting the kid, all of his friends, and his college into hot water.

No, the NCAA is not going to try to enforce that.

3FG,
I agree that amateurism is not the issue.

However, the NCAA does enforce the offers and inducements (albeit selectively and arbitrarily), and classifies the givers with some school connection, (sometimes thready) as boosters.

I think it's important to understand, that if Joe Blow went to Whatsamatta U, and gives Little Johnny FFM's, there's a direct connection and the case can be easily made that Joe Blow is a booster offering inducements to little Johnny, thereby eliminating Whatsamatta U from the recruiting landscape. Any of the colleges that Joes children attended are the next ring of suspicion and are direct enough that it could be problematic if the NCAA wants to make it so.

So much of what the NCAA enforces is arbitrary and selective, that even though the school in question may always have been regarded as on the up and up, that can change at a moments notice depending on which way the NCAA's wind blows.

While in another thread, you pointed out very correctly that the NCAA rule on contact at tournaments and showcases is universally violated and overlooked, offers and inducements is taken quite seriously. All it would take is one member institution raising a ruckus, and this becomes a major issue. This is not letter of the obscure law stuff, but more the kind of thing the NCAA relishes in bringing out and investigating...it makes them look good, which is hard to do.

quote:

Originally posted by Tx-Husker:
I'm already there TR. You clearly don't work with the kind of people I'm talking about. Some people travel a million miles a year...tickets come in 35-50k pieces. I've done it in the past and if I were in that same situation now, I'd help him out. Unfortunately, (or fortunately as I hated that much travel) I'm not.

I donate frequent flier miles. I have far more than I need. I donate them to parents of ill children who have been shipped off to other states for their treatment, not baseball players. Making a showcase is not life and death.

Nice. To be fair, I'm not sure anyone suggested a showcase was life or death.

KT, you didn't deserve the initial abuse that was directed your way, and after a little more details about your story it seems the tide has shifted in your favor. Don't take any of this personally, for the posters on here you've simply sparked a very interesting and much disagreed about thread. Lively but polite debates are what make this board special. The nerve you touched seems to be multi-faceted:
1.Generation differences
2.Frustrations with the current economy
3.Suspicions about the different showcase type events (in general, not meaning the one named here)

Good luck with your fundraising. Wish I could help but I can barely afford my own son's summer baseball!