BALL HITS SECOND BASE AND THEN ROLLS INTO FOUL TERRITORY BEFORE THE 1ST OR 3RD BASE BAG.
IS THIS A FAIR OR FOUL BALL.
THANKS ALL!
Original Post
Replies sorted oldest to newest
Fair ball.
absolutely fair ball with no question.............can you clarify why anyone would question why this would not be a fair ball?
I've had it happen. Ball trickled into an on-deck cicle between 3rd and home after a sharp line drive off of 2nd. My partner and I both point fair, while the runners (R1 R2) are flying, and the defense is watching it roll while their coach is yelling "LET IT GO!" After the play, a run had scored, and the defensive coach wants to argue that 2nd base is... um.. well.. foul? Sorry. All bases are fair. If a batted ball touches any base, then goes into foul territory, it's a fair ball. He thought about it for a second, then just went back to the dugout. During the post-game handshakes, he said he didn't know what in the world he was thinking.
I'm with piaa_ump... why would this be a a questionable call?
I'm with piaa_ump... why would this be a a questionable call?
quote:If a batted ball touches any base, then goes into foul territory, it's a fair ball.
Certainly, if it touches 1st or 3rd base, but I believe touching 2nd base has nothing to do with it. I believe fair/foul is based upon a line drawn from 1st to 3rd, and any ball that lands beyond that is considered fair. For example, everyone playing deep and the batter hits a a pop-up with tremendous backspin on it. The ball hits a stone in the fair territory beyond this imaginary line and the backspin and richochet sends it across the third base line before any fielder touches it. This would warrant a "fair ball" point of the hand. Am I right on this one?
3 out of 4 snaredrum. if the ball hits the plate and rolls foul, its a foul ball. as for the imaginary line, im looking in the case book for a reference.
When the batted ball touches 2nd base, it becomes fair for 2 reasons: FED 2-5-1-e "A fair ball is a batted ball which touches first, second or third base," and FED 2-5-1-b "A fair ball is a batted ball which contacts fair ground on or beyond an imaginary line between first and third base."
N.B. The rubber is in front of this line. A line drive off the rubber that settled on foul ground would be foul.
N.B. The rubber is in front of this line. A line drive off the rubber that settled on foul ground would be foul.
quote:Originally posted by paulmckk:
3 out of 4 snaredrum. if the ball hits the plate and rolls foul, its a foul ball. as for the imaginary line, im looking in the case book for a reference.
Thanks paul, but I don't consider home plate a "base". That's why I said "any base". Fouls off the plate happen all the time.
As far as the imaginary line, that's perfect wording in the FED. Basically, if a batted ball passes 1st or 3rd in fair territory, after touching fair territory, it's fair. Tough call though. BU would have to hustle a little if "cookie"s stone was close to that i-line.
quote:2-5-1-b "A fair ball is a batted ball which contacts fair ground on or beyond an imaginary line between first and third base."
Really, FED says' this? That does it, I gotta get me a FED book. I mean, I agree with it, but would certainly never call it in an OBR game.
So this must give the BU an additional mechanic to consider, interesting.
I was gungho on jumping over to FED this season too.
But due to some health issues I am grounded from taking any blows. So for the first time in 40 some years I won't be having a glove on my hand nor will I be climbing behind the plate with my indicator (only 29yrs for umpiring).
Doc say's "it won't kill me nor make me live any longer, but ya gotta be careful". "Sheesh Doc, "your killing me", you can't be saying things like that around my bride, which of course get's right to my nurse daughter!
So, I'm reduced to Evals for BB, (shh, I would sneak on 90' bases, but won't.) and some SB.
"Rule 2-5-1-b 'a fair ball is a batted ball which contacts the fair ground on or beyond an imaginary line between first and third base'"
jjk, I believe it's the rule in OBR also (this imaginary line)...
quote:That does it, I gotta get me a FED book. I mean, I agree with it, but would certainly never call it in an OBR game.
jjk, I believe it's the rule in OBR also (this imaginary line)...
How about this one: R3 is leading off 3rd in foul territory. The batter hits a line drive that hits 3rd base, bounces back and hits R3 (on foul ground). Assume that F5 is playing behind the bag. Your call please.
quote:Originally posted by dash_riprock:
How about this one: R3 is leading off 3rd in foul territory. The batter hits a line drive that hits 3rd base, bounces back and hits R3 (on foul ground). Assume that F5 is playing behind the bag. Your call please.
Dangit dash! That's a good one.
Dead ball. R3 is out. BR at 1B unless the infraction was the 3rd out. Wrong place wrong time for R3.
I see it as a fair ball that touches a base runner before it (ball) is touched or goes past or through an infielder that's not F1.
Well guys?
quote:Certainly, if it touches 1st or 3rd base, but I believe touching 2nd base has nothing to do with it
In OBR, touching 2nd actually does have something to do with it.
2.00: "A FAIR BALL is a batted ball that settles on fair ground between home and first base, ... or that touches first, second or third base."
And on the ball hitting 3rd bse then bouncing back & hitting R3 in foul territory ...
7.09(m): "The runner is out when ... a fair ball touches him on fair territory before touching a fielder."
So in this case, it would seen that he's not out, because he wasn't "on fair territory".
What's interesting is that 2.00 also says: "A FOUL BALL is a batted ball that ... or ... or that, while on or over foul territory, touches the person of an umpire or player, or any object foreign to the natural ground."
So what we've seemingly got is:
- the ball hitting 3rd base, making it fair.
- a fair ball then hitting the runner in foul territory, meaning he's not out.
- and because it hit him in foul territory it then becomes a foul ball.
So is it a fair ball, a foul ball, or a dead ball???
I'll just echo Snaredrum's comment, "Dangtit dash! That's a good one.
A fair ball can never become foul, and a batted ball that hits a baserunner stays live unless the runner is out or the interference is intentional.
The ball hitting 3rd is fair, the ball then striking R3 while he's in "foul territory", live ball play on.
"jjk, I believe it's the rule in OBR also (this imaginary line)..."
There is no such rule in OBR. Striking the bags yes, other wise is must be beyond 1st or 3rd.
That is why my surprise when I learned that FED actually offers this "imaginary line", never heard of such a thing.
"jjk, I believe it's the rule in OBR also (this imaginary line)..."
There is no such rule in OBR. Striking the bags yes, other wise is must be beyond 1st or 3rd.
That is why my surprise when I learned that FED actually offers this "imaginary line", never heard of such a thing.
regarding that imaginary line..
let's say its a windy day (like it is in NJ today!). High pop up, it hits the ground between short and third, and the wind blows it towards the line where it crosses the line in front of 3B.
based on the imaginary line rule, its a fair ball. Not that it would happen, but I'm sure alot of coaches wouldn't believe it!
let's say its a windy day (like it is in NJ today!). High pop up, it hits the ground between short and third, and the wind blows it towards the line where it crosses the line in front of 3B.
based on the imaginary line rule, its a fair ball. Not that it would happen, but I'm sure alot of coaches wouldn't believe it!
quote:There is no such rule in OBR. Striking the bags yes, other wise is must be beyond 1st or 3rd.
You're right so far jjk. I couldn't find anything in the PBUC manual, and the 2008 BRD (Childress) says there is no provision regarding an "imaginary line" for OBR and NCAA. It appears only FED has it in their rule book.
That raises the question as to what would the call be in the situation that goMO presented in an MiB game or an MLB game or an NCAA game.
I would call it judged whether it had passed 3rd base or not.
In an OBR game, I'd call it fair if it had indeed gone further than 1st or 3rd base.
Never really thought about until this post, but, a 90* angle line, from the front of 3rd toward second, intersects nicely with a similar line from the front of 1B towards 2nd. I just can't picture a ball traveling only 63 some ft, meeting the requirment of landing first "beyond" 1st or 3rd.
It would be pretty easy to determine fair foul on a ball dropping say 10' from 3RD on the SS side, as you'd have a pretty good imaginary line using the base path.
So, mechanically speaking, who's call is this in two man? I'm assuming BU? And do you give the fair signal as soon as it hits? And if no fair signal by BU, does PU check with BU prior to ruling foul on a ball that rolls out?
Could be interesting for those 1 man games.
And? 2-5-1-b "A fair ball is a batted ball which contacts fair ground on or beyond an imaginary line between first and third base."
Tell me about this line:
1. Is it from the C/L of the bags?
2. The foul side front corners?
3. The fair side, outfield corners?
How long has this been a FED rule? (And how long until we can get it changed? :')
I have 97-98 Fed Ump. Manual and a Case Book (97), I see nothing in there.
From OBR:
2.00
A FAIR BALL is a batted ball that..."or that first falls on fair territory on or beyond first base or third base"...........
J/R goes on to say; "It is a fari ball; that is ariborne falls on fair territory beyond first, second, or third base".
In an OBR game, I'd call it fair if it had indeed gone further than 1st or 3rd base.
Never really thought about until this post, but, a 90* angle line, from the front of 3rd toward second, intersects nicely with a similar line from the front of 1B towards 2nd. I just can't picture a ball traveling only 63 some ft, meeting the requirment of landing first "beyond" 1st or 3rd.
It would be pretty easy to determine fair foul on a ball dropping say 10' from 3RD on the SS side, as you'd have a pretty good imaginary line using the base path.
So, mechanically speaking, who's call is this in two man? I'm assuming BU? And do you give the fair signal as soon as it hits? And if no fair signal by BU, does PU check with BU prior to ruling foul on a ball that rolls out?
Could be interesting for those 1 man games.
And? 2-5-1-b "A fair ball is a batted ball which contacts fair ground on or beyond an imaginary line between first and third base."
Tell me about this line:
1. Is it from the C/L of the bags?
2. The foul side front corners?
3. The fair side, outfield corners?
How long has this been a FED rule? (And how long until we can get it changed? :')
I have 97-98 Fed Ump. Manual and a Case Book (97), I see nothing in there.
From OBR:
2.00
A FAIR BALL is a batted ball that..."or that first falls on fair territory on or beyond first base or third base"...........
J/R goes on to say; "It is a fari ball; that is ariborne falls on fair territory beyond first, second, or third base".
Good provocative stuff jjk. I must say it's a delight to see the Pythagorean Theorem applied to a baseball question! As for the points defining the imaginary line (segment), hey this is FED. The "base" is close enough for government work.
BU never has fair/foul on the 3B side in 2-man. It's the PU's job to call it fair (permanently) as soon as it hits the bag and to stay with the ball if it rolls into foul territory.
BU never has fair/foul on the 3B side in 2-man. It's the PU's job to call it fair (permanently) as soon as it hits the bag and to stay with the ball if it rolls into foul territory.
quote:BU never has fair/foul on the 3B side in 2-man. It's the PU's job to call it fair (permanently) as soon as it hits the bag and to stay with the ball if it rolls into foul territory.
I was refering to the "imaginary line", what is the mechanic/s? Hitting a bag, sure that's PU call.
Is PU expected to see this imaginary line between 1st and 3rd? Even though BU is nearly right on top of it, the Imaginary line that is, (at least in better position) in A, B or C positions.
I dunno? I envision, BU watching the ball hit, and judging if it has passed this line.
It's fair if it lands beyond this line, regardless of where it goes after, so IMO a ball landing 3'6" past the pitching rubber, towards 2nd, should be judged fair at that point and should be indicated by a "fair ball signal", by somebody.
How long did you say it will take to change this rule? More I hear, the more I don't like.
quote:Originally posted by jjk:
I was refering to the "imaginary line", what is the mechanic/s? Hitting a bag, sure that's PU call.
Is PU expected to see this imaginary line between 1st and 3rd? Even though BU is nearly right on top of it, the Imaginary line that is, (at least in better position) in A, B or C positions.
I dunno? I envision, BU watching the ball hit, and judging if it has passed this line.
It's fair if it lands beyond this line, regardless of where it goes after, so IMO a ball landing 3'6" past the pitching rubber, towards 2nd, should be judged fair at that point and should be indicated by a "fair ball signal", by somebody.
Fair/foul is PU's job, but I imagine the fair call would only be confirmed after a chat with his partner. Unless, of course, PU called it foul, in which case it's foul forever.
*Quote*Fair/foul is PU's job, but I imagine the fair call would only be confirmed after a chat with his partner. Unless, of course, PU called it foul, in which case it's foul forever.*Quote*
Huh? Who's got time to chat?
How about two outs, bases juiced?
I think the D deserves to know when a ball is fair as soon as possible, especially one that can't be foul.
And the O doesn't deserve to lose a run cause PU umpire calls a fair ball foul.
I don't wanna talk about this again until the rule is changed..:') I just can't shake that ball that lands 2' from 1st, just in front of the 1st to 2nd baseline. Everybody in the world see's it clearly "does not land" beyond 1st base yet ya gotta call it fair.
Well okay just a couple more question, then I'll drop this forever, maybe.
Am I the only person that's been in a cave about this imaginary line?
Huh? Who's got time to chat?
How about two outs, bases juiced?
I think the D deserves to know when a ball is fair as soon as possible, especially one that can't be foul.
And the O doesn't deserve to lose a run cause PU umpire calls a fair ball foul.
I don't wanna talk about this again until the rule is changed..:') I just can't shake that ball that lands 2' from 1st, just in front of the 1st to 2nd baseline. Everybody in the world see's it clearly "does not land" beyond 1st base yet ya gotta call it fair.
Well okay just a couple more question, then I'll drop this forever, maybe.
Am I the only person that's been in a cave about this imaginary line?
quote:Originally posted by jjk:
Huh? Who's got time to chat?
How about two outs, bases juiced?
The likely chat between PU and BU would come after the play is over, and it would CONFIRM the call.
quote:Originally posted by jjk:I think the D deserves to know when a ball is fair as soon as possible, especially one that can't be foul.
Both the D and O should ALWAYS assume the ball is fair until an umpire calls it foul.
quote:Originally posted by jjk:And the O doesn't deserve to lose a run cause PU umpire calls a fair ball foul.
Agreed, but there is only 1 instance where a ball called foul can subsequently be ruled fair (and this isn't it).
quote:Am I the only person that's been in a cave about this imaginary line?
I don't know that you are the only one that didn't know about the imaginary line but it has been discussed here and many clinics I have attended or taught.
In our modified rules, I think that the imaginary line statement has been removed, but when I get to work tomorrow (left my book!) I'm sure going to check.
Now then, a what-if: 1 out, bases loaded, BR hits a sharp two-hopper off the front-edge of the 3B bag. Ball bounces off R3's heel in foul territory, and trickles into the dugout. R3 never really had a chance to get out of the way since he had already started to run towards HP, and there was no intention on his part to deflect the ball. He never saw it. F1, F2, or F5 could've gotten to it and maybe saved a run if it hadn't struck R3. Based on the rule and this thread, it's ball dead, "ground-rule" double. Offense gets 2 runs and now has 2 runners in scoring position at 2nd and 3rd.
If I were the D manager, I'd mosdef be looking for inanimate objects in the dugout to kick. You'd think that there'd be something in a rule somewhere to prevent the O from profiting from this.
Now then, a what-if: 1 out, bases loaded, BR hits a sharp two-hopper off the front-edge of the 3B bag. Ball bounces off R3's heel in foul territory, and trickles into the dugout. R3 never really had a chance to get out of the way since he had already started to run towards HP, and there was no intention on his part to deflect the ball. He never saw it. F1, F2, or F5 could've gotten to it and maybe saved a run if it hadn't struck R3. Based on the rule and this thread, it's ball dead, "ground-rule" double. Offense gets 2 runs and now has 2 runners in scoring position at 2nd and 3rd.
If I were the D manager, I'd mosdef be looking for inanimate objects in the dugout to kick. You'd think that there'd be something in a rule somewhere to prevent the O from profiting from this.
No bases are awarded, the ball was dead when it hit the R3. Where it goes after that doesn't matter.
quote:Originally posted by Michael S. Taylor:
No bases are awarded, the ball was dead when it hit the R3. Where it goes after that doesn't matter.
A fair batted ball stays live if it hits the runner in foul territory (runner is not out). It becomes dead when it enters DBT. The award is 2 bases from the TOP.
quote:Originally posted by dash_riprock:quote:Originally posted by Michael S. Taylor:
No bases are awarded, the ball was dead when it hit the R3. Where it goes after that doesn't matter.
A fair batted ball stays live if it hits the runner in foul territory (runner is not out). It becomes dead when it enters DBT. The award is 2 bases from the TOP.
Dash,
Do you have a rule # on that one? I thought Michael was right.
Sure. It's in the Case Book. 5.1.1.N.
With R1 (sic) at third and F5 playing deep, B2 hits a ball that caroms off the base into foul territory where it touches R1. RULING: A runner who is hit by a batted fair ball in foul territory is not out and the ball remains live.
The 2-base award is Rule 8-3-3-c.
With R1 (sic) at third and F5 playing deep, B2 hits a ball that caroms off the base into foul territory where it touches R1. RULING: A runner who is hit by a batted fair ball in foul territory is not out and the ball remains live.
The 2-base award is Rule 8-3-3-c.
Dash is right, sorry I didn't look it up. I just followed a logic line and I missed.
quote:Originally posted by dash_riprock:
Sure. It's in the Case Book. 5.1.1.N.
With R1 (sic) at third and F5 playing deep, B2 hits a ball that caroms off the base into foul territory where it touches R1. RULING: A runner who is hit by a batted fair ball in foul territory is not out and the ball remains live.
The 2-base award is Rule 8-3-3-c.
Thanks!
quote:
Originally posted by jjk:
Huh? Who's got time to chat?
How about two outs, bases juiced?
The likely chat between PU and BU would come after the play is over, and it would CONFIRM the call.
This makes no sense to me? I have never witnessed a chat between umpires on a fair/foul call, nor should I ever..especially a ball on the infield.
quote:
Originally posted by jjk:I think the D deserves to know when a ball is fair as soon as possible, especially one that can't be foul.
Both the D and O should ALWAYS assume the ball is fair until an umpire calls it foul.
Though I agree with this, it should only pertain to balls that may go foul, not on balls that have "no chance of going foul".
So in my journeys this past few days I've been taking my own survey amongst my Fed associates concerning this imaginary line.
To a man, they all said "What? No such thing".
The two instructors, "I've have never taught, nor will I ever teach such a thing".
So nice one! I'll consider this an early 4/1 joke.
And file it appropriately. You guys had me going for a while...
Actually none of them had their references on them, but they are digging em out and will get back to me.
But the gut call by all of them, "no imaginary line in FED".
I am leaning toward believing this, consider:
1. I've never heard of it, not authoritive, but.
2. 4 outta 4 experienced FED guys, say nope. I do
not use the term "experienced" loosly.
3. There is no "FED mechanic" offered, so it must
not be taught.
4. To many holes in the coverage/call, nobody's
looking for this call nor has resposibility.
5. With all the chatting between Umps on the field,
uh,uh, ain't flying, once a ball is fair, there
is no "waiting", "chatting", it's ruled and
signaled "fair" at that instant.
There now, I have weighed the evidence and come to a conclusion. There is no Imaginary line. It will never be called. If it's written in the FED book, it is not read, nor enforced. One of those silly FED rules that good umpires simply ignore in the best interest of the Great American Game.
Whew, you guys really had me going there...
So, the OP, yes if it hits 2nd it's fair, and if it lands first in fair territory on or beyond 1st, 2nd, or 3rd it is fair. Anything else, foul.
Originally posted by jjk:
Huh? Who's got time to chat?
How about two outs, bases juiced?
The likely chat between PU and BU would come after the play is over, and it would CONFIRM the call.
This makes no sense to me? I have never witnessed a chat between umpires on a fair/foul call, nor should I ever..especially a ball on the infield.
quote:
Originally posted by jjk:I think the D deserves to know when a ball is fair as soon as possible, especially one that can't be foul.
Both the D and O should ALWAYS assume the ball is fair until an umpire calls it foul.
Though I agree with this, it should only pertain to balls that may go foul, not on balls that have "no chance of going foul".
So in my journeys this past few days I've been taking my own survey amongst my Fed associates concerning this imaginary line.
To a man, they all said "What? No such thing".
The two instructors, "I've have never taught, nor will I ever teach such a thing".
So nice one! I'll consider this an early 4/1 joke.
And file it appropriately. You guys had me going for a while...
Actually none of them had their references on them, but they are digging em out and will get back to me.
But the gut call by all of them, "no imaginary line in FED".
I am leaning toward believing this, consider:
1. I've never heard of it, not authoritive, but.
2. 4 outta 4 experienced FED guys, say nope. I do
not use the term "experienced" loosly.
3. There is no "FED mechanic" offered, so it must
not be taught.
4. To many holes in the coverage/call, nobody's
looking for this call nor has resposibility.
5. With all the chatting between Umps on the field,
uh,uh, ain't flying, once a ball is fair, there
is no "waiting", "chatting", it's ruled and
signaled "fair" at that instant.
There now, I have weighed the evidence and come to a conclusion. There is no Imaginary line. It will never be called. If it's written in the FED book, it is not read, nor enforced. One of those silly FED rules that good umpires simply ignore in the best interest of the Great American Game.
Whew, you guys really had me going there...
So, the OP, yes if it hits 2nd it's fair, and if it lands first in fair territory on or beyond 1st, 2nd, or 3rd it is fair. Anything else, foul.
jjk,
Not going to get into whether it is read or enforced, but NFHS 2-5-1:
"a fair ball is a batted ball which:
....
b. contacts fair ground on or beyond an imaginary line between first and third base;
....."
Not going to get into whether it is read or enforced, but NFHS 2-5-1:
"a fair ball is a batted ball which:
....
b. contacts fair ground on or beyond an imaginary line between first and third base;
....."
Your experienced Fed guys need to look in the book. It is in black and white in the rulebook. You don't need to pull it from the casebook,it's in the definitions. I haven't looked in the pro manuals but I believe the same thing is followed in OBR but by interp not by rule. Either way it exists and is taught.
Now to the mechanic, I would still have the PU call the fair/foul. Most will be able to get a pretty good sense how deep the line is and if it is close then call it fair.
Now to the mechanic, I would still have the PU call the fair/foul. Most will be able to get a pretty good sense how deep the line is and if it is close then call it fair.
quote:Originally posted by jjk:
quote:
Originally posted by jjk:
Huh? Who's got time to chat?
How about two outs, bases juiced?
The likely chat between PU and BU would come after the play is over, and it would CONFIRM the call.
This makes no sense to me? I have never witnessed a chat between umpires on a fair/foul call, nor should I ever..especially a ball on the infield.
I haven't witnessed it either, because it's very rare. Nevertheless, it's PU's fair/foul call, and if he called it fair, there is a very good chance the coach would come out after the play was over, and a very good chance that PU would confer with his partner to make sure the ball hit past the imaginary line (yes, it's in the rules). If it didn't, PU could reverse his call and rule it foul.
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by jjk:I think the D deserves to know when a ball is fair as soon as possible, especially one that can't be foul.
Yes. PU needs to call it right away.
quote:
So in my journeys this past few days I've been taking my own survey amongst my Fed associates concerning this imaginary line.
To a man, they all said "What? No such thing".
The two instructors, "I've have never taught, nor will I ever teach such a thing".
So nice one! I'll consider this an early 4/1 joke.
And file it appropriately. You guys had me going for a while...
Actually none of them had their references on them, but they are digging em out and will get back to me.
But the gut call by all of them, "no imaginary line in FED".
I am leaning toward believing this, consider:
1. I've never heard of it, not authoritive, but.
2. 4 outta 4 experienced FED guys, say nope. I do
not use the term "experienced" loosly.
3. There is no "FED mechanic" offered, so it must
not be taught.
4. To many holes in the coverage/call, nobody's
looking for this call nor has resposibility.
5. With all the chatting between Umps on the field,
uh,uh, ain't flying, once a ball is fair, there
is no "waiting", "chatting", it's ruled and
signaled "fair" at that instant.
There now, I have weighed the evidence and come to a conclusion. There is no Imaginary line. It will never be called. If it's written in the FED book, it is not read, nor enforced. One of those silly FED rules that good umpires simply ignore in the best interest of the Great American Game.
Whew, you guys really had me going there...
So, the OP, yes if it hits 2nd it's fair, and if it lands first in fair territory on or beyond 1st, 2nd, or 3rd it is fair. Anything else, foul.
Re: your list above:
1. It's in the rule book. It's your job to "hear of it."
2. Experienced? How so? Sounds like a lot of experienced guys I know that have 1 year of experience 20 times over, as opposed to 20 years experience.
3&4. The mechanic is PU has the fair/foul call, unless BU was in the A, then it's his (if it's fair).
5. Answered above.
quote:But the gut call by all of them, "no imaginary line in FED".
...
This is hard to take....since it is written in the rule book.......
hopefully they will read it when they "try to get back with you" with references...
There is indeed an Imaginary line in the FED rule Book as quoted. Though I haven't read it myself, I believe all of you, and really did from the beginning, but couldn't shake this earth shattering news.
I have done summer select ball for years and we get many conflicting idea's from coaches, players and fans, confusing the too (FED and OBR). So I'm never surprised what I might hear from the FED gang. But to have never heard of this rule, just staggered me. Then to find out, so many others hadn't either, had me buckling ever further.
My conclusion's are swayed some, "yes it is printed in black and white". That is as far as I can go..Sorry.
My feelings are that it is so obscure and out of the realm of real baseball, that it is truley ignored, in many area's. Well it was until this post, now every coach in America will be watching for it, probably have the protest papers Pre-Filled out..
Anyone here ever called or witnessed a ball passing this line, spinning back foul and being ruled "fair"?
AND they, (experienced FED guys), with a combined 90+ years of FED ball,
one a current instructor,
one former assignor and evaluator,
another retired and former National Federation Baseball Rules Committee member and State Hall of Famer,
and another with 10 years FED, including 3A and 4A playoff experience, including championships, got back to me.
They politely thanked me for enlightening them, which I in turn "thank all of you".
These are guys that are ready and willing to chat baseball rules all day/night. And none, knew of this rule, and accused ya'll here of "leading me on", good guys, great umpires, just a bit uninformed?
Here is a direct quote via email from one of them, names changed to protect the guilty:
"you always seem to enlighten me. I now know that there is an imaginary line, which I did not know about before in the fed. book. Thanks, but I got to tell you, I will not preach, teach, or enforce this in a game. It would be an easy sell to call it a foul ball. I have no doubt that I could really sell this if I had to.
thanks."
I have done summer select ball for years and we get many conflicting idea's from coaches, players and fans, confusing the too (FED and OBR). So I'm never surprised what I might hear from the FED gang. But to have never heard of this rule, just staggered me. Then to find out, so many others hadn't either, had me buckling ever further.
My conclusion's are swayed some, "yes it is printed in black and white". That is as far as I can go..Sorry.
My feelings are that it is so obscure and out of the realm of real baseball, that it is truley ignored, in many area's. Well it was until this post, now every coach in America will be watching for it, probably have the protest papers Pre-Filled out..
Anyone here ever called or witnessed a ball passing this line, spinning back foul and being ruled "fair"?
AND they, (experienced FED guys), with a combined 90+ years of FED ball,
one a current instructor,
one former assignor and evaluator,
another retired and former National Federation Baseball Rules Committee member and State Hall of Famer,
and another with 10 years FED, including 3A and 4A playoff experience, including championships, got back to me.
They politely thanked me for enlightening them, which I in turn "thank all of you".
These are guys that are ready and willing to chat baseball rules all day/night. And none, knew of this rule, and accused ya'll here of "leading me on", good guys, great umpires, just a bit uninformed?
Here is a direct quote via email from one of them, names changed to protect the guilty:
"you always seem to enlighten me. I now know that there is an imaginary line, which I did not know about before in the fed. book. Thanks, but I got to tell you, I will not preach, teach, or enforce this in a game. It would be an easy sell to call it a foul ball. I have no doubt that I could really sell this if I had to.
thanks."
If it's the least bit borderline, then by all means call it foul. It would be a hard sell but correct. If it's deep enough there is no doubt then call it.