Fair or Foul?

I've got a fair ball on this one. It was touched by a defensive player over fair territory.

The defensive player was standing in foul territory, when he made contact, I understand fair or foul is determined by where the ball, in the umpires judgement, would have touched, so since the ball rolled foul (prior to passing any of the bags, this took place about 2 ft. up the first base line) and since determing fair or foul is by where the ball would have come down (and stayed if it had not yet passed 1st or 3rd) and not by where the defensive player is when he touches the ball, I called foul. Oh well.

Fair ball.

Where the ball would have landed, and where the player was standing are both irrelevant to fair/foul. It's where the ball was when it was first touched by anyone.

The one quirk is a dead ball. If a fielder catches a ball over dead ball territory, it is a catch as long as at least one foot is touching live ball territory. In this case, it is the fielders feet, and not the ball, that determine whether or not it was a legal catch. If the ball is caught with at least one foot on live ball ground, and the fielder then steps into DBT with both feet, it is a catch, the ball is dead, and all runners move up 1 base (unless it was intentional, in which case they move up 2 bases).

quote:

Originally posted by dash_riprock:
Fair ball.

Where the ball would have landed, and where the player was standing are both irrelevant to fair/foul. It's where the ball was when it was first touched by anyone.

The one quirk is a dead ball. If a fielder catches a ball over dead ball territory, it is a catch as long as at least one foot is touching live ball territory. In this case, it is the fielders feet, and not the ball, that determine whether or not it was a legal catch. If the ball is caught with at least one foot on live ball ground, and the fielder then steps into DBT with both feet, it is a catch, the ball is dead, and all runners move up 1 base (unless it was intentional, in which case they move up 2 bases).

With all due respect, where the ball would have landed is very relevant. A pop up is hit, the 3rd baseman standing in fair territory reaches over the line to catch the ball the ball hits his glove and lands foul, if in the umps judgement the ball would have landed foul had it not been touched, it's a foul ball, regardless of where the defender was when the ball was touched. If the defender is in foul territory and touches a ball that in the umps judgement would have landed in fair territory, it's a fair ball, even if the action of the fielder caused the ball to land foul. So where the ball would have landed is very relevant. How can it not be?

Again, this ball had not passed 1st or 3rd, had not hit the ground and rolled foul after it hit the ground, if what you say is true, and where the player is and where the ball lands is illrelevant, it has to be foul, because it rolled foul before it went passed 1st or 3rd.

I don't think I did a good job of explaining it. The ONLY thing that matters is where the ball IS when it is touched. Is it over fair ground? It's a fair ball. Over foul ground? It's foul. Where it might land is irrelevant.

Consider this - RH batter slices a long drive down the line. The ball is curving foul and, if untouched, will most certainly land in foul territory. But before it can land, the right fielder leaps and the ball hits off the tip of his glove right over the line, and then lands foul.

That, my friend, is a fair ball, even though it would have landed foul.

I owe you an apology, just did a little google and found this.

OUTFIELD FLY BALLS

An outfield fly ball is judged to be fair or foul by the relationship of the ball to the foul line at the moment it first touches the ground, or where it first touches a fielder. If the ball touches a fielder in-flight, the judgment is made at where the ball was when it was touched, NOT from where it may land after a miss, or drop of the ball, by a fielder. The position of the fielder is irrelevant. You only focus on the ball and the foul line.

I'll assume the same rules apply to a fly ball in the infield. Thanks for the help.

ccsdad - you owe me no apology. Discussions like this get me to read the rules and that is a good thing.

Forget google. Go here

http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/official_info/official_rules/foreword.jsp

MLB rules are free online. FED charges for them. There are a lot of differences, and a lot of mistakes in both codes. Enjoy.

cccsdad:
Don't feel too bad, this is a common mistake that comes up during the season every year. dash explained exactly right. Just count it as a lesson learned and apply it to future games. That is what this board and others like are for, to improve the quality of umpires .

Credit MST and Dash.....no worries, come here and find the answer you need without hassle.......

Dont sweat it, umpiring is a little like learning to fly.....you got to build your time.........after a while you have seen most evey situation and the calls become second nature.

anytime you need some direction, come here and we can relate....and between us all "get it right"

ccc, most of the rules are grounded in common sense. I.E. Your scenario, but the catcher reaches over into fair territory and swats the ball into foul ground. Your ruling then?
But you now know the correct ruling......

quote:

Originally posted by archangel:
ccc, most of the rules are grounded in common sense. I.E. Your scenario, but the catcher reaches over into fair territory and swats the ball into foul ground. Your ruling then?
But you now know the correct ruling......

My initial call was based on the fact that the ball rolled foul after it hit the ground, and that the catcher was in foul territory, My understanding was fair or foul was determined by where the ball would have landed, regardless of if it was touched or not, and since it rolled foul, I called foul. Now I know better.