Fall Ball Question

Given that he is 13, I would go with the program where you believe he will learn the most. It should be about skill development rather than exposure at that age. 

Both sound like good opportunities.  In that case I think I'd let the kid decide based on who he wants to play with and which will be most fun. Regarding burnout - I think that depends on the kid's schedule for the rest of the year and whether or not he pitches. ASMI and other experts recommend that players, and pitchers especially, shut it down for a good stretch each year, like 60-90 days.  Personally, I believe it's a good idea for a 13u player who racks up significant innings in Spring and Summer ball to play as a hitter only during any fall ball activities, and then do a shut-down period before spring practices start.

I commend you for keeping your son away from the fall ball hoopla up to now.  Your son has likely benefited from extra arm rest and avoided burnout by playing other sports or doing something else during the fall.  

Is Program 1 tied to a summer club program that's equally competitive?  That could influence the decision.  Also, what type and level of fall showcases and tournaments are you referring to, Perfect Game national level tournaments?  

What position(s) does your son play?  (just thinking about how I emphasized refining skills and needed mechanical adjustments in the fall, kind of the only time to do it, then being able to apply the changes in fall games.  My boys were & are MIF's, a lot of things to work on...

Development, development....  Good to hear HS coach is interested in future players, but bottom line, as much as he'd like a future HS kid on his team, if he hears one of the future HS kids is on a highly competitive team which could create an advanced skilled impact player for his future HS team, he'll be ok with it...

 Edit:  And if does play in the fall, you have to have a planned shut down period over the winter.  If he's a position player, at least 4 weeks of not throwing a ball is good, if he's a pitcher, try to get 8-10 weeks minimum.  Kids are still growing they need the time to heal soft tissues.

Exposure starts at the high school level. Get there first. Go with the high school coach. I know someone who used to be on this board. Our sons frequently played travel ball against each other. His kid played college ball. Before that he played in a prominent travel program. Only four players from the 13u team made the team for 17/18u exposure tournaments.

Being in a prominent program at 13u guarantees nothing. However it didn't stop 10u dads in that program from thinking otherwise. 

I agree with RJM, getting exposure to the HS coach is Uuuuugggggg. Take full advantage of it and have him ask him  where he thinks he needs to improve and then  go work on those things on his own. Also games are for playing, developing skills comes away from the game so work on the things the HS coach wants him to work on. This is a huge opportunity that will pay dividends when he gets to HS. JMO.

For that age... I would prioritize...

Playing a lot - assuming the kid is fully enjoying it and it isn't keeping him from playing other sports he wants to play.  Also assuming he isn't throwing a ton of innings on an arm that already has a lot on the year.  Better competition is better as long as he is still playing regularly.

Good instruction -  and access to a facility so the instruction can be put immediately to practice/drills/reps is a really good thing.  Also, that usually includes some strength/speed/agility structured work.  You'll have to weigh that vs. how much you value his hitting instructor and how much work he gets with him.  Or, maybe the right scenario will allow for both. 

Agree with others that exposure at this point is far down the list of importance and if he puts in the work and develops, he will have plenty of interest from good programs in a few years.

Coach_TV posted:

I have always held my 13U son out from fall ball for all the horror stories of burn out, injuries, rest, etc.

However, this year he has been offered a spot on two different programs in our metro area.  One program is run by one of the hitting instructors he’s gone to and the other is one that is associated with his soon to be HS Coach.

The cost for both programs are about the same, the time/travel commitment is about the same the biggest difference is in the overall programs.

 

Program 1 (Hitting Instructor) –

Pulls kids from a larger pool of kids, very successful program, plays higher level of competition, more “recognition” for the players in showcase tournaments.

 

Program 2 (HS Coach)

Will have 4-5 kids on the team that my son will play with in HS, is run in part by his future HS coach, plays good competition, individual showcase, membership to the top baseball facility in our area.

 

If your 13U son was offered these opportunities and you were open to playing fall ball which way would you go?  Program #1, #2 or none of the above?

1. My son has played Fall/Spring since 6u (now 9th grade), if a kid is going to burn out and hate baseball it's just going to happen.  And what most refer to as "burnout" I think is more like the kid got interested in other things and the parents called it burnout, but really that just happens as kids get older.

2. The other's are older and wiser than me but I have to say I would go with the hitting instructors team.  Here are my reasons:

a. If your kid is going to get better he has to play against better, the hitting instructors program does that better than the HS coach.

b. High School coaches change, OFTEN.  My son goes to a huge school in GA and there was a major coaching change this year that no one saw coming....so you haven't done your kid any favors by playing with the HS coach early if he's not there later.

c. High school coaches don't care what a 13 year old is doing.  Successful coaches in good programs don't even really care what 9th graders are doing...they have enough stuff on their plate with the Varsity team and may assume you are kissing up by joining their fall ball program, and poof, your kid is labeled as THAT kid.

d. In MANY cases the hitting instructor has a wide pool...why...because he's knowledgeable.  Players go to him because he knows his stuff, there is no guarantee the HS coach knows his stuff.

e. You made it a point to say the hitting instructors team has a recognizable name, since you live in Nebraska that is going to be HUGE to your son's next level aspirations.  I'm not great on my baseball knowledge out of state but I don't think you have a plethora of high talent showcase teams in Nebraska. If you can get your kid on one now that would be better than trying to later.

CaCO3Girl posted:

Coach_TV posted:

I have always held my 13U son out from fall ball for all the horror stories of burn out, injuries, rest, etc.

However, this year he has been offered a spot on two different programs in our metro area.  One program is run by one of the hitting instructors he’s gone to and the other is one that is associated with his soon to be HS Coach.

The cost for both programs are about the same, the time/travel commitment is about the same the biggest difference is in the overall programs.

 

Program 1 (Hitting Instructor) –

Pulls kids from a larger pool of kids, very successful program, plays higher level of competition, more “recognition” for the players in showcase tournaments.

 

Program 2 (HS Coach)

Will have 4-5 kids on the team that my son will play with in HS, is run in part by his future HS coach, plays good competition, individual showcase, membership to the top baseball facility in our area.

 

If your 13U son was offered these opportunities and you were open to playing fall ball which way would you go?  Program #1, #2 or none of the above?

1. My son has played Fall/Spring since 6u (now 9th grade), if a kid is going to burn out and hate baseball it's just going to happen.  And what most refer to as "burnout" I think is more like the kid got interested in other things and the parents called it burnout, but really that just happens as kids get older.

2. The other's are older and wiser than me but I have to say I would go with the hitting instructors team.  Here are my reasons:

a. If your kid is going to get better he has to play against better, the hitting instructors program does that better than the HS coach.

b. High School coaches change, OFTEN.  My son goes to a huge school in GA and there was a major coaching change this year that no one saw coming....so you haven't done your kid any favors by playing with the HS coach early if he's not there later.

c. High school coaches don't care what a 13 year old is doing.  Successful coaches in good programs don't even really care what 9th graders are doing...they have enough stuff on their plate with the Varsity team and may assume you are kissing up by joining their fall ball program, and poof, your kid is labeled as THAT kid.

d. In MANY cases the hitting instructor has a wide pool...why...because he's knowledgeable.  Players go to him because he knows his stuff, there is no guarantee the HS coach knows his stuff.

e. You made it a point to say the hitting instructors team has a recognizable name, since you live in Nebraska that is going to be HUGE to your son's next level aspirations.  I'm not great on my baseball knowledge out of state but I don't think you have a plethora of high talent showcase teams in Nebraska. If you can get your kid on one now that would be better than trying to later.

All good points and truly appreciate the insight as a parent who has walked this path.  The thing that is really drawing us to the HS Coach program is he is engaged with our 13U team and has conducted many camps/clinics for our overall organization and directly for our team.  He knows several of our players by sight and name, a few weekends ago we were at an out of state tournament and the HS Coach was there coaching his son's 8U team.  He happened to see me and waved me over gave me the bro hug...LOL and then asked where my son was and for me to send him over to say hi so he can just say hi.  When the hitting instructor asked about my son playing Fall Ball I reached out to the HS Coach and asked his thoughts, issues, concerns about incoming players playing fall ball.  His response was to copy the overall director of the fall ball program telling me that most of the HS players play for this organization.  The director then responded with "Regardless what <hitting instructor> decides to do,  <your son> has a spot with us" and later with "We are moving quickly with our 15U team as spots are filling up.  As mentioned earlier, we’d really like to have <your son> play with us as many HS kids do"  "If <your son> chooses to play with us, we would like him to attend the tryout, just from a formality standpoint.

I mention all of that because the director doesn't know my son from the man on the moon, so I'm assuming that the HS Coach (who knows my son) and the director (who doesn't) must've talked in the background in order for the director to say what he did.

Seems easy from my POV. HS Coach...primarily because I would be nervous about the possible ramifications of not being his team.

Gmnk posted:

Seems easy from my POV. HS Coach...primarily because I would be nervous about the possible ramifications of not being his team.

 

Bingo...sad to think that way, but that thought has been in the back of my head the entire time.  Now I will say that the HS doesn't appear to be that way, but I don't know him that well, and if my son doesn't play there...I'm sure that based on the success of the program there would be a ton of kids lining up to play.

Coach_TV posted:

All good points and truly appreciate the insight as a parent who has walked this path.  The thing that is really drawing us to the HS Coach program is he is engaged with our 13U team and has conducted many camps/clinics for our overall organization and directly for our team.  He knows several of our players by sight and name, a few weekends ago we were at an out of state tournament and the HS Coach was there coaching his son's 8U team.  He happened to see me and waved me over gave me the bro hug...LOL and then asked where my son was and for me to send him over to say hi so he can just say hi.  When the hitting instructor asked about my son playing Fall Ball I reached out to the HS Coach and asked his thoughts, issues, concerns about incoming players playing fall ball.  His response was to copy the overall director of the fall ball program telling me that most of the HS players play for this organization.  The director then responded with "Regardless what <hitting instructor> decides to do,  <your son> has a spot with us" and later with "We are moving quickly with our 15U team as spots are filling up.  As mentioned earlier, we’d really like to have <your son> play with us as many HS kids do"  "If <your son> chooses to play with us, we would like him to attend the tryout, just from a formality standpoint.

I mention all of that because the director doesn't know my son from the man on the moon, so I'm summarizing that the HS Coach (who knows my son) and the director (who doesn't) must've talked in the background in order for the director to say what he did.

It's possible that is what happened....it's also possible there are rules about the HS coach having communication with you about your son.  I don't know how things are in your state but here in GA there are all sorts of weird rules regarding the communication/contact between the HS coach and the players out of season.  Just something to think about.

Also....I hate to be the devil's advocate here but there is some shady crap that goes on in my state.  You have to be careful of the wordplay with these coaches.  It's their job to secure the best kids, this makes others want to join their program, and that means more money.  The knowing of names is a sales tool, and not necessarily an indication of anything other than a good memory.

The flags in this email, to me, are as follows:

1. "Most of the HS players play for this organization" = Is that because this is the fall back when people don't make the elite team? I mean "most" HS players can't play on an elite team so of course most HS players have to play somewhere else.

2. "We are moving quickly with our 15u team as spots are filling up" = I have always hated this tactic...act now before we give your spot away!  While it is true that teams need to finalize their rosters I still see this as a pressure tactic.  How do you say regardless of what the elite team decides you have a spot with us, but then throw in the spots are filling up comment?

3. "The tryout is a formality" = This is another pressure tactic, although a well veiled one. To KNOW your kid has a spot on a decent team makes you more inclined to go with the safe option, the known option.  They want you to commit right now and forget about that other team.

Sadly I have seen all of these games before and in over 50% of the cases the kid doesn't get the star treatment once he's committed to the team. Like I said I could be WAY off base, I am just devil's advocating here, it's just several of these statements stood out to me.  The guy could be 100% legit, but just in case I wanted to throw my interpretation out there.

I reread the thread and now have the question....what does the 13U kid want to do?  If his goal is to play for his school, I reiterate my thought to not leave anything to chance and go HS Coach team.

If he wants to do the other, well then its sticky. Maybe have him read this thread and give him the ideas others bring up to roll around in his head for a bit.

I let my kid be the ultimate decider on what team he played for to this point, 13U now. However, I do see I should have steered him to better competitive teams but I also didn't want him to hate baseball by doing so. He had some maturing to do mentally and is realizing the benefits he may have missed out on. At the time I thought I was being a "good" dad but sometimes making the hard choices for the kid is what it takes to do what is really for their benefit long term.

We’re talking fall ball here, or for most places playing from Sept thru Nov or about 3 months or so. Assuming the HS program isn’t a crappy one, how much more would a player gain by going to even a great program?

 When talking about a 13YO, if they work at all seriously, they’re gonna improve a lot in the next year, let alone 2. They’ll generally grow both physically and mentally, so it’s pretty difficult to say how much additional improvement they’d make even if the best coach in the nation were coaching him for those 3 months.

 For full disclosure, when my son was in that same position we chose program 1. But, the HS program was a mess and didn’t even have the HS coaches doing the coaching. The next 2 years the program was much improved, and he played fall ball for the school and loved it. There was absolutely no pressure and it was a great way to play ball with friends, leading up to the inevitable winter workouts.

 I realize every situation is different, but for most kids I don’t see the great advantage to playing on the great team during the fall.

Coach_TV posted:

Gmnk posted:

Seems easy from my POV. HS Coach...primarily because I would be nervous about the possible ramifications of not being his team.

 

Bingo...sad to think that way, but that thought has been in the back of my head the entire time.  Now I will say that the HS doesn't appear to be that way, but I don't know him that well, and if my son doesn't play there...I'm sure that based on the success of the program there would be a ton of kids lining up to play.

Regardless of which route you choose:  keep developing your son.  Coaches will always want the best players on the field regardless of the route you take.  I didn't fall prey to all the HS coach suggested programs.  BUT, we did communicate with the HS coach: relaying  skill development my son was involved with, teams he was playing on, the competition he was facing, the tournament  wins his team had against top national teams.  The HS coach really appreciated being in the loop and he found a way to accept it.  I invited the HS coach to a few games when my son had a tournament nearby, and he really appreciated it.  Maybe we have an open minded coach....not sure.  Son started Varsity as a Sophomore and his HS coach has been very supportive.  Continual development and communication have been key.  

Gmnk posted:

I reread the thread and now have the question....what does the 13U kid want to do?  If his goal is to play for his school, I reiterate my thought to not leave anything to chance and go HS Coach team.

If he wants to do the other, well then its sticky. Maybe have him read this thread and give him the ideas others bring up to roll around in his head for a bit.

I let my kid be the ultimate decider on what team he played for to this point, 13U now. However, I do see I should have steered him to better competitive teams but I also didn't want him to hate baseball by doing so. He had some maturing to do mentally and is realizing the benefits he may have missed out on. At the time I thought I was being a "good" dad but sometimes making the hard choices for the kid is what it takes to do what is really for their benefit long term.

The 13yo wants to play baseball, but is worried about someone being mad at him for choosing one team over the other.  My advice to him sometimes we have to make difficult decisions that may make some people upset, but at the end of the day we have to do what's best for us since it's our life and not theirs.  He did find out that a few of the kids that are trying out for the HS team are kids he knows so he is leaning that way, which is fine by me.

Gov posted:

Coach_TV posted:

Gmnk posted:

Seems easy from my POV. HS Coach...primarily because I would be nervous about the possible ramifications of not being his team.

 

Bingo...sad to think that way, but that thought has been in the back of my head the entire time.  Now I will say that the HS doesn't appear to be that way, but I don't know him that well, and if my son doesn't play there...I'm sure that based on the success of the program there would be a ton of kids lining up to play.

Regardless of which route you choose:  keep developing your son.  Coaches will always want the best players on the field regardless of the route you take.  I didn't fall prey to all the HS coach suggested programs.  BUT, we did communicate with the HS coach: relaying  skill development my son was involved with, teams he was playing on, the competition he was facing, the tournament  wins his team had against top national teams.  The HS coach really appreciated being in the loop and he found a way to accept it.  I invited the HS coach to a few games when my son had a tournament nearby, and he really appreciated it.  Maybe we have an open minded coach....not sure.  Son started Varsity as a Sophomore and his HS coach has been very supportive.  Continual development and communication have been key.  

 

Like, like, like. Ding, ding, ding.  Exactly.  

Not communicate in the sense of "hey, look at what my kid is doing that is coming into your program" but "Coach, here's what I am doing to prepare, please let me know if you have any suggestions and/or if you want to be in the loop with my baseball activities."

Like, like, like. Ding, ding, ding.  Exactly.  

Not communicate in the sense of "hey, look at what my kid is doing that is coming into your program" but "Coach, here's what I am doing to prepare, please let me know if you have any suggestions and/or if you want to be in the loop with my baseball activities."

And honestly that is kinda how this whole thing started.  After my son was offered a spot on the hitting instructors team I reached out to the HS coach to ask his thoughts on fall ball. His response was to let me know that he was okay with and supported fall ball and to let me know about the program that a lot of his players play for...Nothing more...Nothing less. 

cabbagedad posted:

Gov posted:

Coach_TV posted:

Gmnk posted:

Seems easy from my POV. HS Coach...primarily because I would be nervous about the possible ramifications of not being his team.

 

Bingo...sad to think that way, but that thought has been in the back of my head the entire time.  Now I will say that the HS doesn't appear to be that way, but I don't know him that well, and if my son doesn't play there...I'm sure that based on the success of the program there would be a ton of kids lining up to play.

Regardless of which route you choose:  keep developing your son.  Coaches will always want the best players on the field regardless of the route you take.  I didn't fall prey to all the HS coach suggested programs.  BUT, we did communicate with the HS coach: relaying  skill development my son was involved with, teams he was playing on, the competition he was facing, the tournament  wins his team had against top national teams.  The HS coach really appreciated being in the loop and he found a way to accept it.  I invited the HS coach to a few games when my son had a tournament nearby, and he really appreciated it.  Maybe we have an open minded coach....not sure.  Son started Varsity as a Sophomore and his HS coach has been very supportive.  Continual development and communication have been key.  

 

Like, like, like. Ding, ding, ding.  Exactly.  

Not communicate in the sense of "hey, look at what my kid is doing that is coming into your program" but "Coach, here's what I am doing to prepare, please let me know if you have any suggestions and/or if you want to be in the loop with my baseball activities."

Great clarification - communication was never in any brag sort of way - "I've been able to improve in these areas... " Son actually asked the HS Coach If he would mind providing feedback on recruiting video he was considering sending to colleges.  

He is 13.  Can you explain what kind "Recognition" a 13 yr old gets?

IEBSBL posted:

He is 13.  Can you explain what kind "Recognition" a 13 yr old gets?

Ask the 14u East Cobb Astros or Tristate Arsenal if their team name is recognized.

CaCO3Girl posted:

IEBSBL posted:

He is 13.  Can you explain what kind "Recognition" a 13 yr old gets?

Ask the 14u East Cobb Astros or Tristate Arsenal if their team name is recognized.

I'm not a baseball coach, but I've never heard of those.

 The point is, there are teams that are known. 

Iowamom23 posted:

CaCO3Girl posted:

IEBSBL posted:

He is 13.  Can you explain what kind "Recognition" a 13 yr old gets?

Ask the 14u East Cobb Astros or Tristate Arsenal if their team name is recognized.

I'm not a baseball coach, but I've never heard of those.

The east Cobb Astros are typically on the PG list of top 20 teams nationally in every age group PG keeps track of. Tristate arsenal collect kids from multiple states, as does the ECB Astros.

CaCO3Girl posted:

IEBSBL posted:

He is 13.  Can you explain what kind "Recognition" a 13 yr old gets?

Ask the 14u East Cobb Astros or Tristate Arsenal if their team name is recognized.

Ask some of the Little League teams that that have gone to Williamsport if their team is recognized. 

Doesn't mean anything....2 years ago we were playing in Vegas and one of the kids we were playing looked Uber familiar and I asked the HC about him.  He told me he was on the Vegas team that went to Williamsport.  I hoped that kid enjoyed the "recognition" he got then because that is about all his baseball career would be affording him.  If you are aiming for "recognition' as a 13 year old, you are probably going to be disappointed.

if OP's kid is a top 1% guy, then looking for a team that will give the kid recognition is a reasonable path.  here's why:  there are 7th graders being offered.  that's a fact.  it's not common, but it happens.  think a 13YO Mike Trout.  those kids got offers because they were seen somewhere by reps from schools.  so at some level, there is recognition for younger kids. 

for the vast majority of kids 14 and below, recognition is not a factor.  learning the game and developing a love for it is the key for those kids.  Williamsport is probably not the place to get recognized.  but have you ever spoken with a parent who went to Williamsport and didn't say it was wonderful?  so maybe not the place for next level recognition, but can still be worthwhile! 

once puberty hits, things change greatly and the race to find a college fit heats up.  that's the fat part of the bell curve.   most players really start to settle into their paths 16 and beyond. 

IEBSBL posted:

CaCO3Girl posted:

IEBSBL posted:

He is 13.  Can you explain what kind "Recognition" a 13 yr old gets?

Ask the 14u East Cobb Astros or Tristate Arsenal if their team name is recognized.

Ask some of the Little League teams that that have gone to Williamsport if their team is recognized. 

Doesn't mean anything....2 years ago we were playing in Vegas and one of the kids we were playing looked Uber familiar and I asked the HC about him.  He told me he was on the Vegas team that went to Williamsport.  I hoped that kid enjoyed the "recognition" he got then because that is about all his baseball career would be affording him.  If you are aiming for "recognition' as a 13 year old, you are probably going to be disappointed.

We had a team from Iowa go to Williamsport a few years ago — I think maybe two are now playing on their HS team. The rest aren't playing at all.