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31 replies

Fastball/Change is all you need kids!

I indians08100+ posts
Im sure y'all (im in the south now living in GA) have been watching the LLWS. One of the first things that came to my mind was "wow it seems like every time they are in a jam its curveball, curveball, curveball" and it also seems like thats all they throw

I did camps for midwest baseball academy and when you would let the younger kids throw off the mound at the end...everything was curveball curveball curveball! Look at Kyle Farnsworth...he has a 95 plus fastball and everytime he is in a jam he throws breaking stuff

A year or so ago HBO had a special on little league kids who were having Tommy John surgery at the ages of 12 and 13.

I wanted to see what everyone thought about this, its almost getting out of hand. shouldnt the coaches be responsable? Not only is it not healthy for a 12 year old to be throwing like that its also the fact that when you get in the habit of throwing all curveballs...you slow your arm down then all of a sudden your older and you have no velocity. Many coaches preach fastball change-up, im a firm believer of thats all you need at that level. There was an article online with someone quoted saying "dont throw curveballs until you know how to shave"

I know most coaches dont care what happens to players after they leave the program. In high school 3 years in a row our number 1 had TJ surgery after their sr year. Because it was curveball, curveball, curveball, it was throwing 90 pitches and then going to the OF, even throwing 90 pitches, going to the OF and coming back into pitch. No kid in their right mind will ever say no....but do you think maybe they should?
Bill Dwoinen Jr Assistant Coach Melrose Indians Baseball www.melroseindians.com
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T thepainguy1,000+ posts
Based on the research I've read, I'm not going to let the kids I coach throw curveballs or sliders until they are 16 or 17. Until then, I am going to focus on 4-seamers, 2-seamers, and change-ups.

If they are dead-set on learning a breaking pitch, then I will teach them a knuckle curve which is safe because you don't twist the wrist.

One thing to keep in mind is that the problem isn't just curveballs. Instead, many people believe that it is also related to throwing when tired.

That means that if you want to protect kids, you need to limit how many pitches they throw during an outing and how often they pitch. Ideally, that means 5-7 days of rest between outings. Of course, that means that teams that go to tournaments where they play 3 or 4 (or more) games in a weekend either need to stop doing that or develop a lot of pitchers.
Last edited by thepainguy
O oldnumber1910+ posts
In the opinion of some, a properly thrown curve won't hurt a young kid. BUT, BUT, BUT unless you can guarantee me a kid will throw the pitch perfectly each and every time they take mound, don't ever have a kid throw a curve, dead wrist, live wrist or somewhere in between. NO kid that age can repeat their movements each and every time properly and perfectly.

The ONLY reason coaches have kids throw breaking balls at young ages is because they want to win (duh) without regard to player development.

If, however, your goal is more noble and appropriate and you want to develop pitchers, have them throw fastballs, change-ups and show them how to vary speeds and get a little movement with finger pressure. You may not win every game now but that kid will be a better pitcher because of it.
W windmill100+ posts
I agree with the overall sentiment here - regardless of what anyone says about properly thrown curves, maturity level of the individual kids, blahblahblah...it really doesn't do them any good to throw curves at a young age.

The only problem I have with dead wrist curves, football sliders and other Dollar Store breaking pitches is this: the kids at some point stop throwing them and throw the 'real thing'. Why learn to throw a pitch that you will stop throwing in a year or two??

Fastballs and changeups will always serve you well - you'll always throw a fastball and if you master the change-up, it is a great pitch with no ill-effects. Call it luck, good mechanics, good karma [whoa - maybe didn't want to go there!1] or the fact that he didn't start throwing breaking balls [sliders] until he was 15, but Junior has NEVER had a sore arm, tired arm, dead arm, or anything like that. He has been pitching regularly since he was 9, 3 years running he led his HS varsity in IP and is now a freshman D3 pitcher.

The bottom line is this: throwing curves at a young age does nothing to make you a better pitcher - there is only down side. Who cares what mythical county/state/regional championship you win by throwing 90% breaking balls, when you have TJ at 16 and never get the opportunity to play college ball or realize your full potential. Maybe your 15 minutes of fame as a star 12 YO is enough, but why chance it? All downside, no upside, don't do it.
GshewGshew10+ posts
If you read Andy Lopez book on coaching baseball (Former U of FL Coach) He was adamant about young pitchers learning to "dominate" the low outer third of the plate....not a thing on throwing curves....at his level he was still working on "kids" throwing stikes down and away...curves are being throw by young kids to get the WOW factor...I coach 15-16 yo...first words out of my mouth with parents and players is, "if you threw a curve before you got on this team...you have one too many pitches." What I want from them is strikes....last week John Smoltz threw a complete game against the Pirates....he threw one curve the entire game...my question is...who is the "amateur" game for...the kids, the coach or the parent? Galls me to see some LL coach say, "when is the next time Im going to make it to the LLWS?" Wonder if he helps pay for the rotator cuff surgery?
W windmill100+ posts
quote:
Galls me to see some LL coach say, "when is the next time Im going to make it to the LLWS?" Wonder if he helps pay for the rotator cuff surgery?
or drive to rehab or stay up at night with him when he is upset about not being able to play...

It's not about the kids anymore - if it was, you wouldn't see the curves. I think the whole TV thing helps to exacerbate the problem - the more kids see it, the more they want to do it.

The things they fail to realize have been stated in many posts on this site over the year

- a reliance on the curve ball at a young age retards the development of the fastball

- doing something 'becasue it works' at lower levels, usually won't cut it at higher levels. WHen 'what works' is to the physical detriment or the hinders development, it ain't worth it, even if it does work.

- too many curve balls at a young age will damage the pitcher physically, I don't care how "good his mechanics are" .

- there is no reason for a young pitcher to throw a curve ball, other than to WIN. At that age, that is the worst reason there is.
T turnin2100+ posts
I agree with what many of you have been saying. We teach fastball/change and only teach anything else depending on the kids makeup. Even when we throw curves, its a handful a game, just a look. One pitch we've been trying to work is the cutter, breaks like a slider, only no dot!!! Have a kids that throws about 82-84 who's cutter made kids bail out! Have them grip a 4-seamer, but slide their middle and index fingers together on the outer half and thow a fastball. Saw a kid throwing the same grip and the thing was going hard yet had a hump in it, thoughest pitch I ever saw!!!! Also, we work almost exclusively in the stretch, kids only have one delivery, seems to help them.
Last edited by turnin2
BumBum1,000+ posts
ThePainGuy,

You stated that problems develop when pitchers get TIRED. I agree 100%, and that's why pitch counts are (at least sometimes) a poor restriction.

Let me explain. It's the legs--not the arm--that get tired when pitching..and the legs get tired because the heart and lungs are not properly conditioned. (Have you ever seen a smoker on a treadmill?)

The arm is injured when the pitching motion is changed to compensate for the tired legs.

If you want to protect your pitcher, first get him ATHLETIC. Build cardiovascular fitness (run, bike, swim, etc.) to build endurance. Then work on mechanics for proper throwing motion. Then long-toss regularly and add in strength training suitable for pitchers.

Pitchers who do this are athletes that tend not to get tired when pitch counts get high, or the season wears on. Their arm actually gets stronger deeper into the season.

This is consistent with some of the observations of the "old-timers" here on HSBBW who note that, in the old days, pitchers threw all-day long and pitch counts were unheard of. But those kids were far more likely to have an agrarian (farm) background where they were physically fit.. not playing video games. In 1900, about 90% of Americans lived on farms--now it is less than 1%.

Implement pitch counts if you want--I'm not against it--but what I'm saying is I feel that general athleticism is the most important message a parent should convey to their pitcher-son if they want to protect his "arm".
Last edited by Bum
A Andrew100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Bum:

You stated that problems develop when pitchers get TIRED. I agree 100%, and that's why pitch counts are (at least sometimes) a poor restriction.


I agree with this. I have never cared about how many pitches I throw, I do it by feel; as in, if my arm feels sore and worn down I use that as my method of mesuring when it is time to come out, not the kid keeping my pitch count with tally marks on the bench that has probably never been right and doesn't pay attention anyway.

One question I have, do you really feel that it is the legs that get tired when pitching? I know my mechanics are not great(I throw with too much arm, not enough body), yet I highly doubt that even the most mechanically "perfect" of pitchers get sore in their legs. I believe I have heard Roger Clemens say that before. but that's about it. Could you explain what mechanically makes the legs so sore from pitching. As in what is it in the "ideal" (as much as I hate that word) pitching motion that puts so much stress on the legs?
Last edited by Andrew
P PGStaff10,000+ posts
It is true that one pitcher can still be strong after 100 pitches while another pitcher could be tired after 50 pitches. I worry more about the pitcher who throws a large number of pitches in an inning than how many are thrown in a game. I also worry about pitchers who come back in after rain delays or even when his team hits for a long time. Weather can also play a part in how many pitches a pitcher has in him. There’s a fine line between staying loose and being tired, but both can cause problems. Then there is recovery time and those who pitch on short rest. And there is the number of each type of pitch a pitcher throws in his pitch count.

As far as I know there is no exact answer when it comes to the limit on number of pitches. But when a pitcher has never gone much beyond a hundred pitches and then in the playoffs he goes 150 or more… He is playing with fire! All pitchers are different so it’s hard to say what is the limit. We only know that once that pitcher has passed the limit he is in danger.

Scouts sometimes notice when a pitcher is tired before others do. When a pitcher throws 5 innings at 84-87 mph with a 75 mph breaking ball and then in the 6th inning is throwing 78-81 mph and his breaking ball is 69-70 mph… he’s probably had it! However sometimes that pitcher gets 3 straight outs and everyone tends to think he’s still sailing along. We always gunned every pitch when I coached in college. One reason was so we would be aware of our pitcher losing velocity. It’s not always as easy to see from the dugout as one might think.
T thepainguy1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Andrew:
One question I have, do you really feel that it is the legs that get tired when pitching? I know my mechanics are not great(I throw with too much arm, not enough body), yet I highly doubt that even the most mechanically "perfect" of pitchers get sore in their legs. I believe I have heard Roger Clemens say that before. but that's about it. Could you explain what mechanically makes the legs so sore from pitching. As in what is it in the "ideal" (as much as I hate that word) pitching motion that puts so much stress on the legs?


I don't think it's the legs in general as much as it is the muscles of the upper legs, hips, and lower torso.

The reason these muscles take up so much of the burden is that they are large and are responsible for rotating the torso (which pulls the shoulders and thus the arm around).
GshewGshew10+ posts
While I know this will anger or frustrate a few...I go back to the basic argument...winning IS NOT everything...Vince Lombardi could say that because he was at the very pinnacle of the sport....at any other level...any other level the focus should be on developing players to move to the next....if your coaching below the minors...and your only motivation is to move yourself to the next level....my advice is GET OUT. One of the greates college baseball coaches (Ron Polk) has never spent a day in the bigs...nor do I believe has he ever been offered to move up to it..if he has it is one of the greatest kept secrets in Bball...Coach means just that...coach a player to be better...to learn to excel...to move up.
W wave10+ posts
Hi, Guys,

I got a serious concern and like to get your advice. My son is 12y8m old, 5'6", 105lb. He throws mostly fastball, somewhere in the middle of 60s. He got by fine with that in July in LL, but now he is pitching from 54ft, that middle 60s fastball looks like a sitting duck (the location is also suffering quite a bit, no longer able to pin the edges of the plate)

To survive in a competitive game, he is flirting with a cutting fastball, which he picked up a year ago but was not allowed to use much by me. Initially the cutter breaks more horizontally, but recently it breaks more vertically. The red dot is unmistakably there.

Question (1): Is cutter still a fastball or just a soft slider, what is the difference?
Question (2): Is this cutter dangerous to his arm and his development.

Your response will be greatly appreciated.

BTW: My son seems to have picked up this 'Cutter' effortlessly. I seldom allow him to throw but for fun he would throw a few here and there.
P PGStaff10,000+ posts
wave,

It depends on how he is throwing that cutter/slider?

The dot makes me think he's throwing more of a slider. The cutter is most often thrown with an off center fastball grip and released pretty much the same as the fastball. It doesn't spiral quite as much as a slider.

The true slider is not advised for a young pitcher. Some throw a "grip" slider which is easier on the arm. I'd stick to fastball and changing speeds. Much more important how good your son is when he's 17 or 18 and more physically mature.

IMO - Don't risk the future for some success at age 12. That method has a bad track record for pitchers.
GshewGshew10+ posts
I agree with PG and Tex...the reason your sons pitch seems to be a duck is because he moved up...just those few feet are going to make a difference until he "aclimatizes" to the change...I would venture to say he will see it again when he moves from 54 to 60'6"...you can shorten or eliminate that by having him throw from the 60 when you and he are tossing....it will get him used to the extra 6 feet and will quickly eliminate his duck! I am not talking about having him throw game stuff from 60 now...simply have him finish his warmups from that distance. I would also encourage you to have him warmup exclusively with his change grip...it will make him a much more effective pitcher when the change is so natural to him he can spot it anytime he needs it....I give you as an example...one of the better lefty middle guys in the game was Chris Hammond...his fastball was like 85....but his changes went from 80 to as low as 60....and anywhere in between...and he lived off of them...a true change with the arm speed of a fastball is a truly dangerous pitch to have in your arsenal...even the best hitters in the world have a very difficult time picking it up.
W wave10+ posts
PG, Texan, and Gshew,

Thanks. I have chatted with my son about his 'cutter'. He said he hold the ball like a 2-seam fast ball, then rotate his right hand together with the ball (no relative movement between ball and fingers) so that his thumb is on the left and his index and middle fingers on the right side of the ball. He claims that he throw it like a fastball but make sure to point his thumb at the catcher to finish his throw.(I guess in doing so the two fingers would spin the ball so that the leading point of the ball would move left and down from pitcher'sview)

From the catcher's view, the red dot starts on the left side and progressive moves to the font and top of the ball as the ball breaks down and away to the right. In a game, even the catcher knew it was coming, he would miss the ball for a called strike or swing strike.

The reason I am so concerned is that I think it is more of a slider than a cutter and I do not want him to throw such a 'cutter'.

Again your evaluation of his 'cutter' is truly appreciated.


Wave
P PGStaff10,000+ posts
wave,

You have described a "grip" slider. It is relatively safe pitch, but he's pretty young.

I would suggest trying to master the change up instead, for the next couple years. I think young kids can really get an advantage by mastering the change at an early age. It sometimes turns into a plus pitch as they grow older. Most young pitchers don't throw the change up so you can gain a big advantage.

This requires understanding he might not be quite as successful right now. But it could pay off big later down the road when all the other kids are trying to learn the change up and their fastball hasn't progressed as much.

Your son will learn to throw the breaking ball before the others learn to throw a good change. And there's a real good chance that your son's arm will be in better shape and he will also have a better fastball.
Last edited by PGStaff
MN-MomMN-MomHSBaseballWeb Owner
Sometimes when I see this advice going out to the parents of younger players, I wonder if they know who is really behind that advice. Several very credible people have given input here that I really hope you will listen to.

Just one example:

You may realize from the member ID that PGStaff is with Perfect Game. He is very modest so it's hard to tell, but he's kind of the top dog there. I wonder how many parents of the younger players realize the thousands and thousands of players he has watched develop from the age of maybe 15, on up through outstanding HS careers, then college and/or the draft and pro baseball. I wonder how many "non-Old Timer" members realize that PGStaff's son has had his own career as an MLB pitcher.

I just felt like I wanted to mention, there are some great sources of advice here, and sometimes some misleading advice. Don't be afraid to check your sources and find out how much experience, and what kind of experience, is behind the advice you are reading.

Now, if you want to hear from some ol' baseball mom: These guys are absolutely right! My son is a D3 pitcher starting his junior year, and luckily he didn't throw an excess of breaking balls or weird pitches in HS (or before). But his college coach has told him for 2+ years to work on his changeup as his second pitch after the fastball - curveball and any other breaking pitch come after that. A good fastball to make the change of speeds mean something, and then a good changeup. If your son hopes to pitch into his HS years and maybe beyond, listen to these guys! Wink
Last edited by MN-Mom
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
Julie,
Good post.

The way I see it, if PG suggests learning to throw a good change up while younger (he does give good advice very often), he definetly will be way ahead of the game. Listen to HIM.

Parents want to see their young pitchers have success too early, so they turn blind eye to frequent use of the CB and slider. And each time a pitcher moves up, the young pitcher has to be patient as to not be discouraged. I can tell you though, as they get older and face better competition, nothing more satisfying than to see a batter look silly at the plate because he is so thrown off by off speed pitches. Big Grin

Interesting, in an interview with Anibal Sanchez the other night, after his no-no, he stated that he relied heavily on his CHANGE UP.
redbird5redbird510,000+ posts
I can't tell you how many pitchers at the 12U level were sidelined this year due to arm problems. It always amazes me how many coaches/players/parents get so consumed with winning rather than development. Our kids all pitch and all throw CH. We sprinkle in 3-5 cutters (different FB grip - we tell them it;s a cutter) per 60 pitch outings but nothing more.

How do you think a pitcher will ever have confidence in his FB or CH if he never has to throw it in a tight situation?
Last edited by redbird5
T Texan1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Tiger Paw Mom:
Parents want to see their young pitchers have success too early, so they turn blind eye to frequent use of the CB and slider.


And for some reason, people think that the young pitcher must use a curve or slider to be successful. That just isn't true. If they start working on a proper changeup and good mechanics, they will be plenty successful without the hook.
B brod100+ posts
I was also disgusted by the number of curves being thrown in the LLWS - way more than in a high school game! Blame the coaches and the Dads. Wait, that's us! It must be the "other" Dads and coaches, right?

My son learned the hard way about the slider and the curve. Fortunately, no surgery and very strong now. I tell others to back off all the time - sometimes they listen. If major leaguers told their own stories and people saw they got there without curves and sliders, then maybe things would change. This is a more serious problem than steroids, greenies or HGH, as it affects kids. Why can't Little League require education of coaches on this subject and sanctions?

Tired arms result not only from high pitch counts but from then putting those players out in the field at SS, catcher, or other high intensity positions. Again, it is common sense, but coaches just have to win no matter what the cost.

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