Feedback on Video... and Injury Help (Indiana/Ohio)

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Can you please post a pic or two that clearly defines

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he seems to show the ball to 2B/CF...He should show the ball to 3B

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Originally posted by micmeister
Maddux is already flexing forward in this picture. You need to show the entire delivery in frame sync.

I agree with micmeister, what you showed was 2 totally different stages.

pain,

Please get back to this, I'm trying not to jump on the "let's all bash thepainguy's theory bandwagon".

But I would like a straight answer.

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what you showed was 2 totally different stages.

Exactly.
In many the hips have started to move out and the glove arm come down to get leverage and tuck.
We are questioning the right guy. I have never been one to accept things without question. I am very analitical. However when I read and am shown proper ways to do things I tend to believe them over theorizing like you do. My son knows what feels good.
Having said that I have seen college coaches and pro coacxhes who try to change kids motions. As I said one friend at a D1 in Arkansaw was shut down by a pro scout because the college coacg was messing with his mechanics. He was their closer and led the team in ERA the previous year. The scout said he would wreck his arm. I don't know who is right but this kid was medicak red shirted 2 out of 4 years.
I was at a college showcase and the coaches were all pumpimg a new way to throw. For my son NO THANKS.
What they were teachinh was high hand break and the glove hand and ball hand going back then coming straight forward. No extending back. It was a lot like the catcher video snowball posted.

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Originally posted by thepainguy:

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Originally posted by micmeister:

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Originally posted by thepainguy:

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Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
Doc I am sure you know every coach from here to Timbucktoo teaches a pitcher to rotate the ball at the full **** position towards 2nd base. Our resident genius of couse disagrees.

I know they teach this.

The problem is that this isn't what 90% of pitchers do. Instead, most show the ball to SS or 3B.

For example...







You'll also notice the lack of the "L".

You guys need to start comparing what people are teaching to what the best pitchers in the world actually do.

What pitch would you guys say these pitchers are throwing??? Their thumbs are tucked, so it's not a fastball. The arm is going to be bent in on a curve or breaking pitch, isn't it??? No need for a whip action on an off speed pitch!

Definitely a 4-Seam fastball in the case of Johnson. Probably a 4-Seam fastball in the case of Clemens. Definitely a 2-Seam fastball in the case of Maddux.

The three-point fastball grip is a myth. Most pros use a 4-point grip with the thumb tucked underneath.

Also, the arm action is going to be pretty much identical between a fastball, change-up, or curveball. The only difference is the grip and the degree of pronation or supination.

Otherwise you'd tip your pitches.

I would have said curve or slider on all of these since their fingers are on the side of the ball, but if you say they are fastballs and no one on here disagrees, okay. What is the reasoning for tucking the thumb? Does it cause more movement? Does it go faster? Is it more acurate? It just seems like it would be difficult to control, but I'll have to give it a try. As far as the arm getting to an "L", if you go to pitchingclips.com you will see that their hand does face back to 2nd base until the ball starts to move forward. It is only for an instant, but most of them get there.

mic

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I was asking a question as*hole!

class act mic...

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My statement was true as far as I knew.

This is the problem. Its not what you know that concerns me, its the huge amount you dont know that does. Be careful not to trip while back pedding so fast...

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Originally posted by deemax:
mic

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I was asking a question as*hole!

class act mic...


I call them like I read them! If you don't want to be catagorized as one, don't talk like one! There was no reason to react to my question the way you did. It was a question! That is what "?" indicates when put at the end of a sentence!

"Its not what you know that concerns me, its the huge amount you dont know th does."

Please don't go here! You don't really want me to cut and paste some of your quotes from the hitting forum...do you???

This message board is supposed to be for learning and asking questions. Every time thepainguy says anything, you and several others have to jump in a call him an idiot. Just stick to stating your opinions or disagreeing with someone by saying why you think that is wrong and let the posters decide who is or isn't an idiot.

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Please don't go here! You don't really want me to cut and paste some of your quotes from the hitting forum...do you???

Sure, that would be great.

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Every time thepainguy says anything, you and several others have to jump in a call him an idiot.

I have never called Painguy an idiot, and I dont think he is one. I disagree strongly with some of his theories, but not all of them. I can honestly say this forum would not be as much fun with out him.

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None of this thread would indicate you knew anything at all about hitting.

Based on your recent "Their thumbs are tucked, so it's not a fastball." quote, I will take my chances that your knowledge on hitting rivals only your obvious lack of knowledge on pitching.

This should be posted in hitting...Its the forum that says "hitting" on it. Let this one talk about throwing.

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Originally posted by deemax:

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None of this thread would indicate you knew anything at all about hitting.

Based on your recent "Their thumbs are tucked, so it's not a fastball." quote, I will take my chances that your knowledge on hitting rivals only your obvious lack of knowledge on pitching.

This should be posted in hitting...Its the forum that says "hitting" on it. Let this one talk about throwing.

Uuuhhh...you asked for the hitting quotes, but oh well. Since you are the EXPERT on "PITCHING", what is the reasoning behind tucking the thumb on the fastball. I can't find a website that shows pitching grips where it is shown. Oh...that's right...you don't actually answer questions, do you? You just make smart as* remarks.

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I can't find a website that shows pitching grips where it is shown.

I have a web sit for you! Go to hsbaseballweb.com and look for this picture.

The thumb holds the ball in the fingers so they can impart spin on the ball.......

In most cases, NOT ALL the following apply......

1. FB/CB/SL...first two finger together.....thumb and fingers cut the ball in half

2. 2 seam FB......some may feel comfortable w/ thumb slightly to inside of ball.....

3. Some CH's will vary......but again in most cases, NOT ALL the thumb will be under the ball...not necessarily TUCKED but holding the ball in the appropriate fingers.....

And Mic....I know Greg.....you are somewhat confused........

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And Mic....I know Greg.....you are somewhat confused........

hmmmm.

And Mic....I know Greg.....you are somewhat confused........[/QUOTE]

As to what? I didn't see anything in your grip descriptions that said tuck your thumb on a fastball either. It has been about 6 years since I talked to Greg, but having your thumb on a seam is what he told me then when I took my son to him for lessons. Maybe since he was only 10 years old he felt control was more important than anything else at the time and that's why he said what he said.

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Originally posted by deemax:

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And Mic....I know Greg.....you are somewhat confused........

hmmmm.

Deemax,

Are you associated with a travel ball team? If so, what age group and what is the name of your team?

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Originally posted by deemax:

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I can't find a website that shows pitching grips where it is shown.

I have a web sit for you! Go to hsbaseballweb.com and look for this picture.

As usual, no response to a question! I could cure you of this for a small fee or a plane ticket.

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As usual, no response to a question! I could cure you of this for a small fee or a plane ticket.

I thought John Smoltz gave you an answer.


How exactly are you going to cure me? And of what? You should let this go, you are way out of your league and out of line. Im sorry you got so butt hurt. Maybe its time for you to walk away from the key board for a little bit and calm down.

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I could cure you of this for a small fee or a plane ticket.[/

Are you threatening me?

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Originally posted by micmeister:
And Mic....I know Greg.....you are somewhat confused........

As to what? I didn't see anything in your grip descriptions that said tuck your thumb on a fastball either. It has been about 6 years since I talked to Greg, but having your thumb on a seam is what he told me then when I took my son to him for lessons. Maybe since he was only 10 years old he felt control was more important than anything else at the time and that's why he said what he said.[/QUOTE]

About "tucking the thumb"...Many players only touch the ball (with their thumb) using the inside portion of their fingernail/knuckle. I did this because it allowed me to impart more backspin on my throws from SS and, thus, a truer throw. I learned this from a pitcher who threw for Team USA.

***WARNING***

This thread is close to getting shut down.

Stop the attacks and the veiled threats.

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About "tucking the thumb"...Many players only touch the ball (with their thumb) using the inside portion of their fingernail/knuckle. I did this because it allowed me to impart more backspin on my throws from SS and, thus, a truer throw. I learned this from a pitcher who threw for Team USA.

I agree with this, and didnt really think of the applications it has with the other 8 positions until I read your post. I tucked my thumb because it felt more powerful....for me that was enough. I have seen some guys actually reverse tuck (I think Mike Scott did), but I dont think everyones thumb bends that way.

From what I remember, Mike Scott had VERY large hands.

But...his thumb contact looks to be only 1/4" away from mine.

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Originally posted by redbird5:

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Originally posted by micmeister:
And Mic....I know Greg.....you are somewhat confused........

As to what? I didn't see anything in your grip descriptions that said tuck your thumb on a fastball either. It has been about 6 years since I talked to Greg, but having your thumb on a seam is what he told me then when I took my son to him for lessons. Maybe since he was only 10 years old he felt control was more important than anything else at the time and that's why he said what he said.

About "tucking the thumb"...Many players only touch the ball (with their thumb) using the inside portion of their fingernail/knuckle. I did this because it allowed me to impart more backspin on my throws from SS and, thus, a truer throw. I learned this from a pitcher who threw for Team USA.[/QUOTE]

Thank you for your informative answer to my question! Had I gotten that answer from the one who knows all of the answers earlier, this thread would be over.

Thanks again!

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Originally posted by deemax:

I thought John Smoltz gave you an answer.


I wasn't asking John Smoltz for an answer, I was asking you, but you knew that, right? I've been around baseball for 43 years and have never heard of anyone tucking their thumb while throwing a baseball and have never seen anyone teach this method. That's why I asked the question, but you knew that to, didn't you?



Are you threatening me?[/QUOTE]

No, I wasn't threatening you. I was merely proposing a way that you and I could settle these personal attacks between us. A good friendly boxing match has helped me give many people a good attitude adjustment over the years and I'm sure you would be no exception. Either way, we could possibly see each other more eye to eye when we were finished. Oh well, I got the answer to my question anyway. Thanks for at least putting your reasoning for tucking your thumb although it wasn't directed to me.

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Originally posted by micmeister:

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Originally posted by deemax:

I thought John Smoltz gave you an answer.


I wasn't asking John Smoltz for an answer, I was asking you, but you knew that, right? I've been around baseball for 43 years and have never heard of anyone tucking their thumb while throwing a baseball and have never seen anyone teach this method. That's why I asked the question, but you knew that to, didn't you?



Are you threatening me?

No, I wasn't threatening you. I was merely proposing a way that you and I could settle these personal attacks between us. A good friendly boxing match has helped me give many people a good attitude adjustment over the years and I'm sure you would be no exception. Either way, we could possibly see each other more eye to eye when we were finished. Oh well, I got the answer to my question anyway. Thanks for at least putting your reasoning for tucking your thumb although it wasn't directed to me.[/QUOTE]



A good friendly boxing match has helped me give many people a good attitude adjustment over the years and I'm sure you would be no exception


let me know I do most of deemax's light work.lol

A good friendly boxing match has helped me give many people a good attitude adjustment over the years and I'm sure you would be no exception


let me know I do most of deemax's light work.lol[/QUOTE]

Cool! We can make a night of it!

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Originally posted by micmeister:
Maddux is already flexing forward in this picture.

I don't know what you mean by this. You can tell where he is in the delivery by the position of the PAS forearm.

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Originally posted by Doc_K:
I agree with micmeister, what you showed was 2 totally different stages.

What exactly do you mean by this?

These photos represent the same moment in time...











You can tell this by the vertical forearm and the degree of hip/shoulder separation.

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Originally posted by thepainguy:

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Originally posted by Doc_K:
I agree with micmeister, what you showed was 2 totally different stages.

What exactly do you mean by this?

These photos represent the same moment in time...











You can tell this by the vertical forearm and the degree of hip/shoulder separation.

Yes, all photos provided are at the same point in the delivery. The ball will be facing back to 2nd base a bit earlier in the delivery in most pitchers. Do you have the three frames before these?

Pain lokk at the hips. They have started to move out in some more than others.

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Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
Pain lokk at the hips. They have started to move out in some more than others.

These two photos are virtually identical...

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Originally posted by thepainguy:

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Originally posted by micmeister:
Maddux is already flexing forward in this picture.

I don't know what you mean by this. You can tell where he is in the delivery by the position of the PAS forearm.

What I have always been taught, was that the ball should be facing to 2nd base when the lead foot first touches down. In the videos on pitchingclips.com that I've seen most of the pitchers are in that position at touch down.

Yes they are virtually the same and the horses have already left the barn.
The hand has moved and started to get on top of the ball.

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Originally posted by micmeister:
What I have always been taught, was that the ball should be facing to 2nd base when the lead foot first touches down. In the videos on pitchingclips.com that I've seen most of the pitchers are in that position at touch down.

First, I know that many people are taught this. However, I don't think there's any good basis for this particular piece of advice. There are also problems with following this advice.

In general, I believe that this piece of advice is based on a lack of understanding of what a pitcher's arm does when they throw a ball.

Second, please give me some examples of the pitchers you are referring to. I don't see it in clips of guys like Mariano Rivera and others with very long careers.



I don't see it in this clip of Clemens...



At a minimum, this advice isn't nearly as important as people say it is.

This is were you bug me. I like the post where you posted pictures and didn't say much. I was getting ready to call you The pictureguy.
You always go on conjecture and these things are taught by MLB guys. Tom House and many others. Not all pitchers rotate their hand as far as pointing at 2nd base. Yes some may point at SS and even 3rd. It really makes no difference.
Your not knowlegeable enough to make your conclusions. Tom House is.

Why don't you show a clip from the beginning ?

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Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
Why don't you show a clip from the beginning ?

http://www.pitchingclips.com/videos/roger_clemens.htm
http://www.pitchingclips.com/videos/roy_oswalt.htm

If you look at where the wrist and ball is in relation to the shoulders and their right ear it is facing in the direction of second base if the shoulders were square to third base. Since the shoulders have already started to rotate, the ball appears to be facing toward ss or 3b, but the back of the wrist is facing the ear.

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Originally posted by thepainguy:

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Originally posted by micmeister:
What I have always been taught, was that the ball should be facing to 2nd base when the lead foot first touches down. In the videos on pitchingclips.com that I've seen most of the pitchers are in that position at touch down.

First, I know that many people are taught this. However, I don't think there's any good basis for this particular piece of advice. There are also problems with following this advice.

In general, I believe that this piece of advice is based on a lack of understanding of what a pitcher's arm does when they throw a ball.

Second, please give me some examples of the pitchers you are referring to. I don't see it in clips of guys like Mariano Rivera and others with very long careers.



I don't see it in this clip of Clemens...



At a minimum, this advice isn't nearly as important as people say it is.

http://www.pitchingclips.com/players/jeff_weaver.htm

Here is a clip of Jeff Weaver. He goes straight back to 2nd base with the ball.