First & third defense..

Generally we don't. Simply because we run a 1st/3rd defense where the pitcher does cut and throw to 3b so we'd like to catch 'em napping. If we're throwing through we have our 2b crashing so he can read the runner at 3b to keep him honest.

With your different options of plays in this defense, do you have all players sell their coverage the same every time, ie; second base crashes on every option, shortstop always covers 2, or do you run different looks?

I can tell you we have 2b crash 98% of the time. We work that over and over in practice. Only time I show a different look is if I just want to get the out depending on the situation and I throw through.

JMW: when you say "crash" Are they going to the bag and then coming straight toward home? or are they heading in at an angle?

quote:

Originally posted by JMW37:
I can tell you we have 2b crash 98% of the time. We work that over and over in practice. Only time I show a different look is if I just want to get the out depending on the situation and I throw through.

We used to be like this and do the crash (we called it flash and I'm assuming you're having the 2B split the mound to 2B distance - if not then I'm just rambling at this point I guess LOL) almost every time in a 1st / 3rd steal situation. Then we came across a team that hit and run in this situation and they ate us alive until we stopped doing the flash. Now we stayed home and was able to check the runner at third and get the out usually at first. Gave up the base and they got what they wanted but it didn't kill us anymore. It forced me to stop being lazy and start calling more pick offs / pitch outs and other things to disrupt them.

Now if we run flash it has to be a called play. Since we went to this we started getting a lot better defensively on this situation.

Also, want to say for the guys that know me - I'm still an assistant and for some reason I can't stop typing as if I'm the head coach. What I'm typing is what we did when I was head coach and will be running when I get another job. I'm just too lazy to go back and fix the tense.

quote:

Originally posted by trojan-skipper:
JMW: when you say "crash" Are they going to the bag and then coming straight toward home? or are they heading in at an angle?

SS has bag and 2b is the cut (between mound and bag). He cuts if the runner is too far off, or lets it go if he's not (if only it were that simple in execution every time!!)

I normally wouldn't call it crash (we just call it cut), just using lefthookdad's terminology since he was the OP!

That is what we typically run as well. If we feel the runner at 3b is inexperienced or antsy, we will do a throw where the SS charges from the position and we throw it directly to him, (most runners go when the ball is past the pitcher), we will also call a pop throw down to 3b. Just for different ideas.

JWM37: thanks.

quote:

Originally posted by right arm of zeus:
we will also call a pop throw down to 3b. Just for different ideas.

I don't call those. What we do is put the burden on the 3B. If the runner is too far off as the catcher comes up, 3B throws hands up. C should see that out of his peripheral and fire to 3B.

quote:

Originally posted by coach2709:

quote:

Originally posted by JMW37:
I can tell you we have 2b crash 98% of the time. We work that over and over in practice. Only time I show a different look is if I just want to get the out depending on the situation and I throw through.

We used to be like this and do the crash (we called it flash and I'm assuming you're having the 2B split the mound to 2B distance - if not then I'm just rambling at this point I guess LOL) almost every time in a 1st / 3rd steal situation. Then we came across a team that hit and run in this situation and they ate us alive until we stopped doing the flash. Now we stayed home and was able to check the runner at third and get the out usually at first. Gave up the base and they got what they wanted but it didn't kill us anymore. It forced me to stop being lazy and start calling more pick offs / pitch outs and other things to disrupt them.

Now if we run flash it has to be a called play. Since we went to this we started getting a lot better defensively on this situation.

Also, want to say for the guys that know me - I'm still an assistant and for some reason I can't stop typing as if I'm the head coach. What I'm typing is what we did when I was head coach and will be running when I get another job. I'm just too lazy to go back and fix the tense.

Hit and Run on 1st and 3rd, I love it!! What did you teach the runner from third in case he would run into one hit directly at him? Great stuff!!

quote:

Originally posted by Nicholas25:

quote:

Originally posted by coach2709:

quote:

Originally posted by JMW37:
I can tell you we have 2b crash 98% of the time. We work that over and over in practice. Only time I show a different look is if I just want to get the out depending on the situation and I throw through.

We used to be like this and do the crash (we called it flash and I'm assuming you're having the 2B split the mound to 2B distance - if not then I'm just rambling at this point I guess LOL) almost every time in a 1st / 3rd steal situation. Then we came across a team that hit and run in this situation and they ate us alive until we stopped doing the flash. Now we stayed home and was able to check the runner at third and get the out usually at first. Gave up the base and they got what they wanted but it didn't kill us anymore. It forced me to stop being lazy and start calling more pick offs / pitch outs and other things to disrupt them.

Now if we run flash it has to be a called play. Since we went to this we started getting a lot better defensively on this situation.

Also, want to say for the guys that know me - I'm still an assistant and for some reason I can't stop typing as if I'm the head coach. What I'm typing is what we did when I was head coach and will be running when I get another job. I'm just too lazy to go back and fix the tense.

Hit and Run on 1st and 3rd, I love it!! What did you teach the runner from third in case he would run into one hit directly at him? Great stuff!!

We teach the runner to stay in foul territory so ball cant hit him in fair territory, as for a ball hit to 3B, it depends, runner needs to freeze and see what the 3B does with the ball.

Thanks for all the responses. My thinking:
My sons HS runs several options on 1st & 3rd situation, the typical stuff; straight thru, throw to third, throw to pitcher, throw to infield cut off(either ss or 2b)....as I was observing the drills the other day I notice that players were "tipping" the plays just like a pitcher "tips" his pitches. I like showing the same look every time no matter where the throw is going, selling the play, like a play action fake in football, everyone has to sell their part. That is why I like the pitcher faking the cut and feinting to third on the throw thru to second. If he is doing it correctly it will look the same as when he does cut and throw to third. Same with whichever middle infielder is moving in to cut the ball, or read the runner, he has to sell it. I am more concerned with keeping the runner at third from scoring than gettin him out, but an out would be nice.

BTW, does anyone no about what percentage of time the runner on third scores on a first and third offensive play?

I understand your thinking, lefthook dad. I just see it differently. For instance the pitcher faking to 3b, I see it more as a reverse than a play-action pass (just to continue your analogy). You're not going to fake a reverse to set up the reverse. You're gonna let the backside guys get lulled into overpursuing and then burn 'em.

I want that runner at 3b to get lazy and feel real comfortable. We actually teach our catcher to not even check the runner at 3b in that instance(as opposed to when we're throwing to 2b).

quote:

Originally posted by lefthookdad:
... everyone has to sell their part. That is why I like the pitcher faking the cut and feinting to third on the throw thru to second. If he is doing it correctly it will look the same as when he does cut and throw to third.

Agree, but it is often much easier in theory and even practice drills than it is in actual game execution.
In games, P is focusing on executing his pitch and his finish leaves him roughly 50' away from home plate. Catcher comes up firing to 2b. Trajectory and line aren't always exactly as planned. P, then trying to quickly change thought process and fake the cut, can find himself in a dangerous position in relation to the catcher's bullet headed in his general direction. A low throw from C toward an upright and faking P is of particular concern .
If P has the mental and physical ability to quickly shuffle step away from the line of the throw prior to faking the pick, he can more safely execute. Whether or not a pitcher tends to fall off line when he finishes is a factor also.
And when practicing this play in drills, it is much easier than in games because the focus in drills is on the 1st & 3rd play and not on the pitch execution.
So, in my experience, this works for some pitchers and is dangerous for others. I do like it for those who can safely execute it.

This is different than when P actually does cut and throw to 3b. It is in some ways much easier when P and C know they are playing catch with one another.

quote:

Originally posted by JMW37:

quote:

Originally posted by trojan-skipper:
JMW: when you say "crash" Are they going to the bag and then coming straight toward home? or are they heading in at an angle?

SS has bag and 2b is the cut (between mound and bag). He cuts if the runner is too far off, or lets it go if he's not (if only it were that simple in execution every time!!)

JMW
Do you find it a problem to get 2b into position in time? We have had that issue at times when we give 2b the cut option, even when he is properly pinched to begin with. Is there ever an issue with 2b intersecting with runner? We sometimes will call for the throw to go to SS who is moving in on a line that is not directly to 2b but closer to SS position. But this is easier for R3 to read, so we're still trying to come to consensus on best cut option besides P.

quote:

Originally posted by cabbagedad:

quote:

Originally posted by lefthookdad:
... everyone has to sell their part. That is why I like the pitcher faking the cut and feinting to third on the throw thru to second. If he is doing it correctly it will look the same as when he does cut and throw to third.

Agree, but it is often much easier in theory and even practice drills than it is in actual game execution.
In games, P is focusing on executing his pitch and his finish leaves him roughly 50' away from home plate. Catcher comes up firing to 2b. Trajectory and line aren't always exactly as planned. P, then trying to quickly change thought process and fake the cut, can find himself in a dangerous position in relation to the catcher's bullet headed in his general direction. A low throw from C toward an upright and faking P is of particular concern .
If P has the mental and physical ability to quickly shuffle step away from the line of the throw prior to faking the pick, he can more safely execute. Whether or not a pitcher tends to fall off line when he finishes is a factor also.
And when practicing this play in drills, it is much easier than in games because the focus in drills is on the 1st & 3rd play and not on the pitch execution.
So, in my experience, this works for some pitchers and is dangerous for others. I do like it for those who can safely execute it.

This is different than when P actually does cut and throw to 3b. It is in some ways much easier when P and C know they are playing catch with one another.

I would agree if we had a catcher that could throw a bullet! LOL

quote:

Originally posted by lefthookdad:
I would agree if we had a catcher that could throw a bullet! LOL

Haha. So, sounds like our (mis)adventures with trajectory and line put us in about the same boat. Factoring in the wide ability range of HS players is definitely an issue with some of these strategic questions. Makes it all the more fun.

1st and 3rd defense

If we are throwing through we fake the cut hoping to freeze the runner. Or at least getting him to hesitate if he is going on the throw to 2b.

I asked my son what they do. He said throw down to get the guy at second. THe middle infielders are supposed to react to both runners and make a play. THey want the guy on third to take off so they can get a double play by throwing both runners out.

How strong are their arms and how accurate are they? The catcher, SS and 2B all must have cannons with pin point accuracy in order to pull this off.

They all have guns or they wouldn't be starting. BUt the MI's react to the throw. IF it is on they tag the guy at second and throw the guy out at home. The last time somebody tried it and was successful was 13U. I saw it tried only twice last year. Out and out. You don't need pinpoint accuracy. THe throw just has to beat the runner.

"Do you find it a problem to get 2b into position in time? We have had that issue at times when we give 2b the cut option, even when he is properly pinched to begin with"

Yes.

It's essential that the cutting 2B is trained to hustle as far as possible TOWARDS THE PITCHER--separation from second base-- on this play. If there's not enough distance between the 2B and the SS at the bag, the 2B risks screening the SS and/or doesn't give the SS enough time to react if this is being run as an option

quote:

Originally posted by Doughnutman:
They all have guns or they wouldn't be starting. BUt the MI's react to the throw. IF it is on they tag the guy at second and throw the guy out at home. The last time somebody tried it and was successful was 13U. I saw it tried only twice last year. Out and out. You don't need pinpoint accuracy. THe throw just has to beat the runner.

Ok so let me make sure I got this right. Runner on first takes off on a steal and catcher throws to 2B. The runner on 3B freezes as the 2B moves to split the mound / 2B bag distance. But there is enough time for the throw to get to 2B, apply the tag, turn and throw to the plate to get the runner at third trying to score on a tag? I can't see that happening if the runners actually know what to do.

I teach my runner on 3B (if we just want to steal the bag) to be slightly off bag and as the throw nears the 2B to take two hard steps to the plate like he's going. Then he puts the brakes on and dives back to third. The 2B cuts the throw and he's late getting the ball for the tag at 3B. We've never been thrown out.

If we want to score then runner at 3B is slightly off the bag and shuffles to the plate watching the 2B. Once it's past him and no longer cuttable then he turns and hauls to the plate. Now the runner on 2B has to be smart - if he has a chance at being safe we tell him to go for it by trying to avoid a tag (occupy the fielder with a tag) so the runner scores. If he feels he doesn't have a chance then he stops and forces the fielder to come after him.

I just can't see two long throws result in two tags with slightly above average runners - especially if they do the above. We are going to score a run even if we give up an out at 2B or we will get the runner to second. I can't see any team I've coached get nailed at both bases.

I'm not trying to be a jerk here but the way I picture it in my head I can't see it happening.

We don't do cuts. MI'ers decide who has the bag based on the usual things, who is hitting, who is pitching. Then whoever covers the bag makes the decision based on the throw by the catcher and what the runner decides to do. Coach lets the kids make a play. Nothing is called. The other MI covers his position. Centerfield backs up the throw and the other MI hustles over if the ball isn't put in play. You have to trust your guys.

Ok I gotcha now - basically what MLB players do cause they never run the 2B cut play.

Apologize for the confusion.

quote:

Originally posted by Doughnutman:
We don't do cuts. MI'ers decide who has the bag based on the usual things, who is hitting, who is pitching. Then whoever covers the bag makes the decision based on the throw by the catcher and what the runner decides to do. Coach lets the kids make a play. Nothing is called. The other MI covers his position. Centerfield backs up the throw and the other MI hustles over if the ball isn't put in play. You have to trust your guys.

With that defense, I can see you being successful getting one out or the other but usually not both. With no cuts, this allows R3 a good read on whether throw is going through or not and getting a decent running lead. If MIF covering 2b stays and applies the tag, he usually won't be able to then turn and fire in time to get R3 at home even with a strong arm. If MIF sees R3 going and aborts the tag at 2b, moves toward home and fires, then yes, he will have a good shot at R3 at home. I see this play quite a bit and rarely is it out and out even with very good MIF arms. Just my observation. Would love to hear others'.
DM, I might be confused. Are you talking college or HS?

quote:

Originally posted by Doughnutman:
THey want the guy on third to take off so they can get a double play by throwing both runners out.

With all due respect, it would require a slow-footed runner (R3) getting a bad jump for this to happen.

It is HS. I guess that is just the way it is coached. Our SS has been clocked in the low 90's and second at low 80's. Catcher is around 2.0-2.4. They are good. But it has been this way before those guys took over. Do you ever see this play in college or the pro's where they send the runner? Not very often. Our coach is an ex pro. The coach before him was ex college and now current college coach. Most teams don't like giving away outs. We will gladly take them if offered.

It is difficult to get both out, but far from impossible. If the kid on first stops to get in a run down we go from 1st and third, nobody out to runner on 2nd and one out. Nobody scores and we get a cheap out. They have been doing it that way in travel for a few years. It is normal for these kids and most of the teams we play in our division.