first base coaches yelling "back!"

I was "that" guy back in the day when I was first base coach but there's really no reason in saying back on a typical pick off. Like you said by the time you say something it's probably too late. I think it's a natural reaction to say back because you want to do something to help your runner.

If any runner on any base has to rely on a coach saying back on a pick then he's probably out. A coach can help in telling the runner if a fielder is flashing to the base for a pick.

Another good one is when either base coach is doing the whole "one step off......back one......off one.....back one" as the SS / 2B try to hold a runner on second. Just get a safe lead and watch the pitcher - he's the one with the ball.

If you are correct, which I believe you are, then this would mean players in the dugout would have O effect on the game yelling back as well. Why then do coaches care whether or not their players yell back?

quote:

Originally posted by IEBSBL:
If you are correct, which I believe you are, then this would mean players in the dugout would have O effect on the game yelling back as well. Why then do coaches care whether or not their players yell back?

IEB,
"Why" is what I've been wondering.

I've always cared, and without really thinking about it thought it I guess I thought it helped runners get back.

Now I'm realizing it's about the dugout keeping their heads in the game, etc.

How about the first base coach who yells, "more, more" to he player on second just as the pitcher is in motion? I think it's usu to mess up the pitcher. If the kid is on JV and doesn't know how to watch the pitcher and know how far to lead off he's not a good player. Those directions are for young players just leading off for first yr IMO.

quote:

Originally posted by freddy77:
Now I'm realizing it's about the dugout keeping their heads in the game, etc.

I do think that is a residual benefit. I also think it keeps the bench energy up.

A few other thoughts...
-like running out a routine fly ball or a foul ball chopper that has a 1 in 1000 chance of kicking back fair.
-like the LF running all the way over to back up a routine high fly straight to center.
-like a runner busting to 1B on a ball four/past ball with the thought of maybe taking second.
-like the MIF backing up the throw from the catcher back to the pitcher after every pitch with a runner on.
It's the right way to play, for that remote instance when it may make a difference.

Also - "with his quick move", the pitcher is trying to make a quick deceptive move to trick the runner and get the bang/bang tag out. A coach that has been around a while is more likely to recognize a good pick move more quickly than a young baserunner. Once in a great while, that split-second can make a difference.

quote:

Originally posted by coach2709:
A coach can help in telling the runner if a fielder is flashing to the base for a pick.

Another good one is when either base coach is doing the whole "one step off......back one......off one.....back one" as the SS / 2B try to hold a runner on second....

A question for you, Coach..
What language do you use to communicate to your runner about flashing MIFs? I do still use "back one", "get off", "nobody" so the runner can safely get every advantage the defense is giving. I guess I'm still one of those guys.

quote:

Originally posted by playball2011:
How about the first base coach who yells, "more, more" to he player on second just as the pitcher is in motion? I think it's usu to mess up the pitcher.

To me the runner's job is to watch the pitcher and the base coach's is to watch the MIF. So I may be saying "more" (or whatever) as he starts his motion just because I'm not completely focused on him. It's not a "1st year player" kinda thing. It happens at levels higher than HS ball, too.

If the kid watching the pitcher can get even an extra foot based on my communication than it's worth it to me. That translates into an extra foot at the plate on a bang-banger.

We're talking about two vastly different things when you're talking about a runner at 1st reacting to a pick vs the runner at second dealing with 2 guys keeping him close (1 directly behind him) AND the pitcher picking. I tell my runners that I have the SS, they have the 2B. They should be able to watch the pitcher and have the 2B in their peripheral. The last thing I want is to have the runner turn around to look for the SS. Only words I use are "one more," "back one," "nobody," and "BACK!!!"

quote:

Originally posted by cabbagedad:

quote:

Originally posted by coach2709:
A coach can help in telling the runner if a fielder is flashing to the base for a pick.

Another good one is when either base coach is doing the whole "one step off......back one......off one.....back one" as the SS / 2B try to hold a runner on second....

A question for you, Coach..
What language do you use to communicate to your runner about flashing MIFs? I do still use "back one", "get off", "nobody" so the runner can safely get every advantage the defense is giving. I guess I'm still one of those guys.

Good question and I have no doubt that you're not the guy I'm talking about. The ones I'm talking about have their runner on second looking like he's doing some sort of dance out there constantly moving back and forth.

There is still communication with the runner but it doesn't have to be that much. Everything starts with the pitcher and the runner has to be focused on any pick off movment.

The communication is there to take advantage of teams who don't hold runners well or protect runners against team who do hold well. For example if it's not a very good team then I'm going to be saying "OFF ONE" until we can either take the base or they are forced to pay attention to the runner.

If they get to a lead where it's a stretch to get back safely then I'm saying "SETTLE". This tells them they have a sizeable lead and be aware for a pick.

If a MIF is trying to hold them and they have a lead where they can't get back on a pick move then I'm yelling "BACK ONE". Usually when the defense hears the back one that satisfies them and we can go with settle again so we may give up a little bit of ground but we're not panicing and giving up a lot of ground.

If there is some sort of daylight pick where the MIF sprints the bag then I yell "BACK, BACK" and the runner will give up a lot of ground to get back safely if there is a pick. Most of the time the pitcher turns but doesn't throw because there's no chance. There are times we get fooled on a good hard jab by the MIF but so be it.

But overall get a good lead and settle until its time to extend or shorten up based on the team we're playing.

quote:

Originally posted by cabbagedad:
A question for you, Coach..
What language do you use to communicate to your runner about flashing MIFs? I do still use "back one", "get off", "nobody" so the runner can safely get every advantage the defense is giving. I guess I'm still one of those guys.

We keep it very simple.

Good = stay there
Real Good = +1
Watch = -1

[QUOTE]Originally posted by coach2709:

Good question and I have no doubt that you're not the guy I'm talking about. The ones I'm talking about have their runner on second looking like he's doing some sort of dance out there constantly moving back and forth.
[/QUOTE


I've always thought of this to disrupt the batter either seeing some guy dancing or having to call time because the pitcher is just standing there.

quote:

Originally posted by coach2709:

Good question and I have no doubt that you're not the guy I'm talking about. The ones I'm talking about have their runner on second looking like he's doing some sort of dance out there constantly moving back and forth.

I laugh when I still see this at the college level, because it blows me away that anyone would ever think this is beneficial. If a runner is jumping back and forth, I'm going to hold in the set until his weight is going back and he is deliberately leaning towards 2B. Then I'll slide step and pitch. I trust that my catcher has a good enough arm to catch the ball and throw out the idiot that decides he's fast enough to steal after getting that kind of jump. Jumping back and forth will not disrupt us pitchers, it just makes you a bad baserunner.

JH,
I personally don't allow my R2s to jump around.

My potential basestealers take under-the-radar leads. My non-basestealers aren't trustworthy to be jumping around.

However,

If you're paying enough attention to a back & forth R2 to time the start of your delivery to his movement back, then some will argue that the back-and-forth movement has achieved its goal.

To some degree, the runner disturbed the rhythm the pitcher, as compared to a runner who stands still in his primary.

In your case, I'm guessing it doesn't degrade the quality of your pitches. But results may differ with some other pitchers.

Although yelling "back" to your runners is rarely going to help (a bad throw could make that "back" call work out if the runner isn't paying attention), the fact is it's not going to hurt either. So why not yell it? If it saves a guy from being picked off just once out of a thousand attempts, then do that.

quote:

Originally posted by freddy77:

To some degree, the runner disturbed the rhythm the pitcher, as compared to a runner who stands still in his primary.

In your case, I'm guessing it doesn't degrade the quality of your pitches. But results may differ with some other pitchers.

Completely understandable. I guess my post was probably pertaining to the college level and above. I don't know if it's because a pitcher at those levels may be better, but they're certainly more experienced.

I've coached 1st and 3rd. I am comfortable at both, but I must admit I am dang good at 1st base. I read pitchers after the first throw over. After that, I'm on it. Now, over at third, I'm still learning the ropes. I can get the runners in to score no problem. 1st to 3rd is what I'm still working on.

quote:

Originally posted by coach_10:
I've coached 1st and 3rd. I am comfortable at both, but I must admit I am dang good at 1st base. I read pitchers after the first throw over. After that, I'm on it. Now, over at third, I'm still learning the ropes. I can get the runners in to score no problem. 1st to 3rd is what I'm still working on.

The best thing to do in order to get runners from 1st to 3rd is to turn them loose. Teach them how to read where outfielders are and arm strength and then let them make the decision in game. The 3B coach should only be there is the ball is behind the runner like in the RF corner. Everything else should be in front of them and let them make the call to keep coming.

I have no numbers to back it up but I would venture to guess the number of times a guy gets thrown out is much smaller than the number of times a guy holds at second with the coach calling the shots.

Don't be afraid to teach and turn them loose.

quote:

Originally posted by coach2709:

quote:

Originally posted by coach_10:
I've coached 1st and 3rd. I am comfortable at both, but I must admit I am dang good at 1st base. I read pitchers after the first throw over. After that, I'm on it. Now, over at third, I'm still learning the ropes. I can get the runners in to score no problem. 1st to 3rd is what I'm still working on.

The best thing to do in order to get runners from 1st to 3rd is to turn them loose. Teach them how to read where outfielders are and arm strength and then let them make the decision in game. The 3B coach should only be there is the ball is behind the runner like in the RF corner. Everything else should be in front of them and let them make the call to keep coming.

I have no numbers to back it up but I would venture to guess the number of times a guy gets thrown out is much smaller than the number of times a guy holds at second with the coach calling the shots.

Don't be afraid to teach and turn them loose.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a very aggressive coach. I steal like it's going out of style. My point was, runner on first and ball is hit in the gap. From third base, there is a different angle. One that I tend to lose depth perception for some reason. I will send runner and quickly realize that the ball is getting there quicker than anticipated. As far as letting the players decide on their own, I disagree at the high school level. They most likely will make the wrong decision, especially on the being too conservative side. They will hold up when the ball is still rolling in the outfield more than try and stretch it. I put blame on their little league "coaches" (dads) for not teaching appropriate or aggressive game play.

Ok so if you have a depth perception issue then where do you stand in the box area? What I've always done, and even with turning guys loose, is I still work the box. If you have a runner coming from first you need to be up the line towards LF. Somewhere in the neighborhood of 10 feet past third base near the OF grass line. This helps your runners pick you up earlier and gives you more time to make a decision as well. You don't have to stay in the box in order to work runners.

I obviously don't know your kids but I think you might be surprised if you give them guidance in being more aggressive. This is something you have to teach in practice and be patient with if they do get thrown out or are too passive. You do it in practice and they see it in a game or two they will figure it out quickly.

One thing I do to help teach this and accomplish a few other things for my defensive is do BP + 1. Get 7 guys in positions (no pitcher) and a catcher suited up off to the side of the cage - no sense getting into a squat if you have a cage. You can either take a round of BP and on the last one go live or just go live and get more reps in. Have them hit the ball and they have to try and get an extra base than what it is. For example - if they hit it in the gap and it's going to be a stand up double they have to push it to try and stretch it into a triple. If it's a an easy single they push it and stretch it into a double. This forces them to hustle out of the box and it lets them see how much they are able to get away with.

This also puts pressure on your defense to make clean plays. They can't be throwing the ball all over the place and expect to stop runners. It forces them to hustle and think before the play happens.

Now if it looks like they are going to be out by a considerable distance they put the brakes on and head back. But now your defense can work on executing a rundown.

Let's say it's going to be an easy groundout on the infield. Once the first baseman catches the ball for the out he steps forward, turns and throws the ball to the fence as if it's a wild throw. Now the runner has to work on stopping, finding the ball and heading to second. The catcher who was standing beside the cage is now involved because he's hustling up the line for back up.

Lot of things you can do on this drill with a coach throwing to ensure hittable pitches. Plus it teaches aggressive / smart baserunning and helps the defense.

I really like the idea of having the kids stretch an extra base out of the box, in practice. It will really show everyone what they are all capable of. To be honest, I am rarely in the actual box. I personally think its too far up the line. I am usually right at 3rd with no runner on, and a few feet past with runner(s) on. What I'm mainly talking about are gapers right-center and overthrown balls down the right field line or to the fence from pitcher.

Let me get specific-- Runner at first, pitcher overthrows 1st baseman. Ball gets to fence down right field. Even with a moderate runner, I feel they should be able to make it to third (given they get up quick and make a good round of 2nd.) The right fielder hits the pitcher as the cutoff and they relay to 3rd for the out! Great heads up play, but I play the odds and think high school mentality will set in and the right fielder will try and be arm-cannon hero and launch one over 3rd baseman's head. You see where I'm getting at, saying I like to be aggressive? I was thinking we were about to get a cheap run off errors. That's all I'm saying. Right-center gapers are tough to judge for me. I will eventually get it right with more time over there though.

I believe it is one of those things instilled. The coaches are trying to help, and kids are taught to do it at an early age so they can keep their head in the game.

Now, it is up to the 1st base coach to see any subtle movement and be prepared to yell back. If he's late, I feel it's counterproductive.

quote:

Originally posted by coach2709:

quote:

Originally posted by coach_10:
I've coached 1st and 3rd. I am comfortable at both, but I must admit I am dang good at 1st base. I read pitchers after the first throw over. After that, I'm on it. Now, over at third, I'm still learning the ropes. I can get the runners in to score no problem. 1st to 3rd is what I'm still working on.

The best thing to do in order to get runners from 1st to 3rd is to turn them loose. Teach them how to read where outfielders are and arm strength and then let them make the decision in game. The 3B coach should only be there is the ball is behind the runner like in the RF corner. Everything else should be in front of them and let them make the call to keep coming.

I have no numbers to back it up but I would venture to guess the number of times a guy gets thrown out is much smaller than the number of times a guy holds at second with the coach calling the shots.

Don't be afraid to teach and turn them loose.

Coach, this is a nice post! IMO, this is exactly why you do situational running in practice. You are a good coach and so, you have practiced your players enough that they know the game and can think the game.

An example of practicing when to steal is the "down ball." My child just played in a "women's world series." The competition was comprised of former pro and major college players. She stole 8 bases in the tournament on "down balls." It is a read and react that has to be practiced. One year, I coached at team that stole 237 bases. That was an amazing year. They all took practicing reading the pitcher, reading the pitch, knowing the opponents/catcher's arm seriously and wanted that record.

Thanks coach and you are right that it's small things that win the most games for you. You don't have to try and teach / go over them everyday. Just do it once or twice a week is all you need.

I think a lot of 1st base coaches yell back out of instinct and not because it is helping the players. Honestly, a 1st base coaches job, IMO, is to let the runner's know a situation, where the ball is on a wild pick off throw, etc. If he has to do much more "coaching" than that at 1st, the base runners aren't going to be very effective and/or agressive.