First time I've seen this

Thats an important part of their job.  Good for them if they didn't think it was safe.  Maybe they coulda made the decision earlier - oh well.  Life isn't perfect.

Admission fee?  Consider it a donation.  Probably about 1/20th-1/10th of the fee they're paying for a hitting or pitching lesson.

justbaseball posted:

Thats an important part of their job.  Good for them if they didn't think it was safe.  Maybe they coulda made the decision earlier - oh well.  Life isn't perfect.

Admission fee?  Consider it a donation.  Probably about 1/20th-1/10th of the fee they're paying for a hitting or pitching lesson.

I guess. Personally I'd be more concerned about my son taking a line drive to the chest on the mound or an 85 mph FB to the head as opposed to falling running the bases but that's just me. 

It happens.

I agree with JBB.  Consider it a donation.

Last fall our local HS had a football game called due to lightning.  At first they waited for about an hour, but as the lightning kept occurring they eventually called the game.   The make up game was "free" the following Saturday (it was a scheduled off weekend for the team).

I won't comment on the specifics of the game in the OP since I wasn't there, but making decisions on when to stop a game due to weather, field conditions, darkness are the toughest decisions an umpire has to make.

And, if the coach / AD is any good, he / she / they will be talking with the umpires before the game starts to see if the umpires agree that the field is fit for play.

Not trying to start anything here BUT:

1. How was it not clear before the game that it was "unsafe"? If it was only marginally unsafe the diamond dry should have fixed the issue.

2. I'd be interested to know the rules on how far the game has to progress for the umpires to get paid.

 In NFHS rules the home team decides whether the field is fit for the game to start or not.

After the game starts it is up to the umpires to decide whether to stop the game or not. 

Two different sets of decision makers and highly doubt either party had money as a motivator.

If the Umps think there is a safety issue from the rain then they should call it. I have seen and heard of many horror stories from playing on muddy fields with bad footing. Pitchers think only about their arms but position players must consider injuries to other parts of their bodies as well. Maybe a kid slips and tears ACL-MCL on the base path. Maybe a pitcher lands wrong off the wet slippery mound. What kind of damage could be done

I am all for playing games when it rains. But not at the risk of injury. We have had a ton of rain here as well. Fortunatley summer season is right around the corner. 

CaCO3Girl posted:

Not trying to start anything here BUT:

1. How was it not clear before the game that it was "unsafe"? If it was only marginally unsafe the diamond dry should have fixed the issue.

2. I'd be interested to know the rules on how far the game has to progress for the umpires to get paid.

1. You live in the South - right?  Lightning, thunderstorm, downpour...or maybe once the kids started playing it became clear it wasn't safe or the mound wasn't safe.  See things happen in other parts of the country.  Sometimes games start with the hope they can be played, but reality sets in once players start slipping and sliding.

2. Yeah, I guess that could be a reason.  But I doubt it.  In most places my kids played, umpire doesn't get paid unless the game is official.  Doesn't sound that way here.

I wish I hadn't mentioned the fees as the $10 my wife and I paid wasn't really an issue. I've watched a lot of baseball at this point, some on a lot worse fields, and I've never seen a game stopped like that. Also there were freshman, JV, and softball being played on the fields around us. No one complained, slipped, or fell. The players and coaches wanted to play but the umps had issues. They called the AD (or someone acting on his behalf) and he caved.

I will admit this. I watched the AD just be like "whatever" and the game is called. Having rushed to get there, drove a ways, etc that kinda didn't sit well with me. So I'm walking out amongst a large group of parents. I stopped at the admissions booth and asked so that others could here me "are we going to get a refund"? That's all it took, I stood there a little while then walked to the car. As I was waiting on my wife I watched the AD surrounded by about 30 angry parents all wanting a refund and I felt a little better. 

Regarding the umpire's role and pay:

The umpire's jurisdiction doesn't begin until the home plate conference, so the plate umpire can't call it before then.

As Noumpere said, the coaches should be talking to the umpires beforehand to avoid a situation in which the plate umpire accepts the lineup card and immediately calls the game.

Different associations have different contracts with different leagues and schools regarding umpire pay in these situations.

In the associations I've been in, umpires receive a partial game fee or a travel payment if the game is cancelled within two hours of the scheduled start or after the umpires arrive. Once the game starts, however, umpires are due a full game fee regardless of when the game gets called. 

A game fee is a game fee is a game fee. We don't get extra money for extra innings or waiting through rain or lightning delays. And we don't get less money for mercy rules or postponements.

Situations like this usually occur in rec or travel ball. High school coaches are protective of their fields, and ADs are protective of their budgets, so cancellation decisions for scholastic games usually get made early.

When I find a sloppy field at a game site, I make a pre-game round of the field. If it's hopeless, I tell the coaches they are already on the hook for half our game fee but they can save the other half by admitting defeat before I accept the lineup cards. 

Usually they acquiesce. Sometimes, they push back a little.

"We really want to get this game in."

"And I really wanted to officiate this game, sir, but we're not going to play this game on this field. The weather has already won."

Nobody has ever let it go so far as to insist on starting just so I or my partner can stop it.

Probably the only argument an umpire can ever win with a coach. 

Is this the right thread for this?  Seems so, from the title.

http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/...ers-concession-stand

Swampboy posted:

Regarding the umpire's role and pay:

The umpire's jurisdiction doesn't begin until the home plate conference, so the plate umpire can't call it before then.

As Noumpere said, the coaches should be talking to the umpires beforehand to avoid a situation in which the plate umpire accepts the lineup card and immediately calls the game.

Different associations have different contracts with different leagues and schools regarding umpire pay in these situations.

In the associations I've been in, umpires receive a partial game fee or a travel payment if the game is cancelled within two hours of the scheduled start or after the umpires arrive. Once the game starts, however, umpires are due a full game fee regardless of when the game gets called. 

A game fee is a game fee is a game fee. We don't get extra money for extra innings or waiting through rain or lightning delays. And we don't get less money for mercy rules or postponements.

Situations like this usually occur in rec or travel ball. High school coaches are protective of their fields, and ADs are protective of their budgets, so cancellation decisions for scholastic games usually get made early.

When I find a sloppy field at a game site, I make a pre-game round of the field. If it's hopeless, I tell the coaches they are already on the hook for half our game fee but they can save the other half by admitting defeat before I accept the lineup cards. 

Usually they acquiesce. Sometimes, they push back a little.

"We really want to get this game in."

"And I really wanted to officiate this game, sir, but we're not going to play this game on this field. The weather has already won."

Nobody has ever let it go so far as to insist on starting just so I or my partner can stop it.

Probably the only argument an umpire can ever win with a coach. 

That's what I thought.  Of course only the OP was there, so we weren't in the huddle at the plate.  However, how does something like this happen if everyone had done their due diligence?  Maybe it was a bit worse than the umps thought, but a BIT worse would have been fixed by the diamond dry. I agree with the OP this was odd.

Umps here get paid for a full game on the first pitch.

SomeBaseballDad posted:

I wish I hadn't mentioned the fees as the $10 my wife and I paid wasn't really an issue. I've watched a lot of baseball at this point, some on a lot worse fields, and I've never seen a game stopped like that. Also there were freshman, JV, and softball being played on the fields around us. No one complained, slipped, or fell. The players and coaches wanted to play but the umps had issues. They called the AD (or someone acting on his behalf) and he caved.

I will admit this. I watched the AD just be like "whatever" and the game is called. Having rushed to get there, drove a ways, etc that kinda didn't sit well with me. So I'm walking out amongst a large group of parents. I stopped at the admissions booth and asked so that others could here me "are we going to get a refund"? That's all it took, I stood there a little while then walked to the car. As I was waiting on my wife I watched the AD surrounded by about 30 angry parents all wanting a refund and I felt a little better. 

As an Athletic Director I have to say that I really don't like you because of this HAHAHA.  Honestly, though to not give a refund on a ticket they bring back is dumb and creates problems that shouldn't be.  Now if you don't bring a ticket back then you are out of luck because we can't keep track of who did or didn't pay without a ticket.  You bring a ticket then you get a refund.  Just makes sense.

As for playing or not playing I've been AD for 5 years and with football, M / W soccer, softball and baseball we have only had two sports not finish a game due to weather once started.  I take pride in judging the weather to be able to play or not.  Especially before the other team leaves school and / or officials show up.  I have a very good track record.  Once was M soccer about 3 years ago when a cloudburst just opened up and made the field too wet just before the other team arrived.  I knew we were going to get rain for a very short period of time but the amount was just too much for the field to handle.  The other was a football game this season when the official wouldn't let us finish due to lightening.  The thing was the lightening was 40 miles north of us.  We were seeing the reflection of their lightening on the clouds around us.  He suspended play at halftime and wouldn't let us continue.  I called his supervisor and the state - both looked at the weather and said we were safe to play but it was that official's call.  They were going to back him no matter what.  He wouldn't budge even after seeing the radar, lightening radar and talking to his bosses.  It was very frustrating.

I don't know if anyone caught it in the OP, but the game had started.  The umps & coaches were conferring after the 1st inning had been completed.  That's when the umps/AD called the game.  

I can't speak for other regions, but around here the admittance fee is nonrefundable.  And at football games if you leave, you have to pay again to get back in (there are signs up that state this).   At the one football game that was not even started due to lightning, the school could have charged again for admittance, but since this happened just before kickoff (stands more than half full) it was decided there would not be any admittance fee for the make up game.

coach2709 posted:

As for playing or not playing I've been AD for 5 years and with football, M / W soccer, softball and baseball we have only had two sports not finish a game due to weather once started.  I take pride in judging the weather to be able to play or not.  Especially before the other team leaves school and / or officials show up.  I have a very good track record.  Once was M soccer about 3 years ago when a cloudburst just opened up and made the field too wet just before the other team arrived.  I knew we were going to get rain for a very short period of time but the amount was just too much for the field to handle.  The other was a football game this season when the official wouldn't let us finish due to lightening.  The thing was the lightening was 40 miles north of us.  We were seeing the reflection of their lightening on the clouds around us.  He suspended play at halftime and wouldn't let us continue.  I called his supervisor and the state - both looked at the weather and said we were safe to play but it was that official's call.  They were going to back him no matter what.  He wouldn't budge even after seeing the radar, lightening radar and talking to his bosses.  It was very frustrating.

We had a sub-varsity baseball game this year where we could all see lightning and the home plate umpire was making a big issue of it. I had it on my phone that lightning was >25 miles away, and we have a lightning prediction system at our school... if we were in danger, the alarm would have gone off long before we saw that lightning! It's one of those things where our school administration turns to the AT staff for all decisions weather-related.

Had another funny one this year first football game of the year. We had lightning in the area in pregame so we had to clear the field once. Then, in the middle of the first quarter, our alarm sounds. They finish the play, and then the officials immediately stop the game and we clear the field. When the "all clear" is given, I go to tell the referee, but he doesn't want to hear from me. He said "Only the home AD can give us permission to return to the field." So we find the AD. Referee asks the AD for permission, AD turns to me, I say yes, AD turns back to the referee and says go. lol

Bulldog 19 posted:

coach2709 posted:

As for playing or not playing I've been AD for 5 years and with football, M / W soccer, softball and baseball we have only had two sports not finish a game due to weather once started.  I take pride in judging the weather to be able to play or not.  Especially before the other team leaves school and / or officials show up.  I have a very good track record.  Once was M soccer about 3 years ago when a cloudburst just opened up and made the field too wet just before the other team arrived.  I knew we were going to get rain for a very short period of time but the amount was just too much for the field to handle.  The other was a football game this season when the official wouldn't let us finish due to lightening.  The thing was the lightening was 40 miles north of us.  We were seeing the reflection of their lightening on the clouds around us.  He suspended play at halftime and wouldn't let us continue.  I called his supervisor and the state - both looked at the weather and said we were safe to play but it was that official's call.  They were going to back him no matter what.  He wouldn't budge even after seeing the radar, lightening radar and talking to his bosses.  It was very frustrating.

We had a sub-varsity baseball game this year where we could all see lightning and the home plate umpire was making a big issue of it. I had it on my phone that lightning was >25 miles away, and we have a lightning prediction system at our school... if we were in danger, the alarm would have gone off long before we saw that lightning! It's one of those things where our school administration turns to the AT staff for all decisions weather-related.

Had another funny one this year first football game of the year. We had lightning in the area in pregame so we had to clear the field once. Then, in the middle of the first quarter, our alarm sounds. They finish the play, and then the officials immediately stop the game and we clear the field. When the "all clear" is given, I go to tell the referee, but he doesn't want to hear from me. He said "Only the home AD can give us permission to return to the field." So we find the AD. Referee asks the AD for permission, AD turns to me, I say yes, AD turns back to the referee and says go. lol

If lightning is visible, the game is halted. That is black-and-white and non-negotiable. 

Matt13 posted:

If lightning is visible, the game is halted. That is black-and-white and non-negotiable. 

Its the same here.   I also add if you can hear thunder you can still be struck by lightning.  So it's not a matter of just "seeing" lightning.

Several years ago there was was an incident where two boys were struck by lightning well after a storm had passed - skies were clearing or had cleared.  A LL game had been cancelled and the boys were just playing catch on the field.  Out of nowhere a bolt hit both of them.  Ever since, most officials here err on the side of caution - if they see lightning or hear thunder they will stop the game and clear the field.