For safety's sake, when is it time for all amateur teams to use wood bats?

Bear

I've watched some college wood bat games this summer. Yeah, my kid pitches, but I still like the sound it makes better. Hitting with would separates the hitters. No such thing as the half swing gapper with wood.

The time is now.

I Agree.

CV

Bear - agree

IMO - In addition to being dangerous - aluminum bats have distorted the game - much like astroturf did years ago.

I wish they would get rid of these metal cannons once and for all.

College coaches prefer wood to metal, however, due to the expense it will never come to be. Many high schools can't afford the expense of balls or new uniforms for the year, let alone wood bats.
Same goes for the next level. Just too expensive.

As much money as the major aluminum bat manufactures have made over the last 20 years they ought to be able to afford to give away their wood bats.

They have to be making a fortune.

CV

You have my vote Bear. Astroturf too Paul. While we are at it, lets get rid of the new plastic spikes the players are wearing, along with high seam baseballs, maple bats, batting gloves (they cost too much and I am cheap), baggy pants, flat billed caps, the pads catchers wear on their calves,Dusty Baker's wrist bands, Coach's giving more than 4 signs per game, pitch counts and alcohol sold at ballgames.

Doug,

I went through your entire list - and the only one I have a problem with is the baggy pants. Some of them bow-legged boys need them. LOL

S.O.S. - Save Our Sons! Please, let's get rid of the metal weapons and use wood bats - OR a wood composite bat that acts like wood but lasts longer, for the sake of economics.


P.S. itsinthegame, are you sure you read bbscout's ENTIRE post? He did mention getting rid of beer at ballgames ...

BB

Thats quite a list. I would add flat brims on side-ways. What's up with the plastic spikes? Never heard of them before. I saw a 'Bama pitcher wearing them around the ball park this weekend and thought I was at a Little League game.

Metal bats would work OK, I guess, if they would just deaden them down to wood bats.

BBS,

Got to keep the high seam balls (my son's a pitcher).

What's wrong with maple? Heck, Babe used hickory.

I hope you weren't serious about pitch counts.

Can go for the others...

MN-Mom,

I missed that one. LOL

But if it is the same kind of beer they sell at Shea Stadium - they can get rid of that and I wouldnt mind.

What they sell at Shea ain't beer !!!!1

Composite wood bats sell for $75-$100. And they are very durable and almost impossible to break. They hit like wood and have exit velocity like wood. The metal bats today cost $200 - $300. You could buy 3-4 compsite bats for 1 metal bat. Each team I know of has 3-5 different metal bats which could be 12-16 composite bats. Even with a good wood bat at $50 a piece you could buy 5 - 6 wood bats. Cost is the the issue. When the meatl bat was iniated, the csot of metal and wood made since. Not today. The fact that High school rules require metal is ridiculous. Metal bat companies obviously are not going to lead this parade, unfortunately it's going to take several severe injuries or deaths for people to wake up. It's really a shame. My son was at the Perfect Game National Showcase last weekend and we saw a couple of close calls and potential injuries with wood bats on balls hit at the pitcher. It is bad enough with wood, let alone metal. Hpoefully people wil start to realize the danger. By the way, the game at all levels should be played with wood. That is the way the game was designed.

I thought I might get a reaction on some of the things that I said. 1. Wood bats are used by all the JC's in the Northwest, and they don't have much money. The top D1 schools get big financial kick backs for using certain metal bats, along with gloves, shoes etc. Cost is not a problem, greed is the problem. 2. Plastic spikes are being used by a lot of big leaguers, and are used for one reason only.....they are more comfortable. My son's teamate 2 years ago blew his knee out when he touched home plate scoring on a base hit wearing plastic....his foot hit the plate and slipped and it cost him a year with the injury. 3. High seam balls make it easier to throw a breaking ball, but they carry a lot farther when you put back spin on them too.4. The ball comes off a maple bat faster than an ash bat, and that is why all the big leaguers are using them. 5. In my opinion, pitch counts don't mean much.....it is when you run your guy back out to pitch 9 innings after he has just pitched two days before that you hurt pitchers ....see college regionals and world series.

Its, Willie Mays was bow legged and he was the first guy that started having his uniform tapered.

I have to make a response to the cost issue. To say that they will never go back to wood because of cost is a correct assumption. The answer is to deaden the bat back to the levels of a wood bat. Period. The reason that is being resisted is simply corporate greed. Part of the sales pitch is "ours goes further than theirs." It is simply money and prestige to sell more bats and make more profits and the despicable Bast....s do it for money at the detriment to our nations youth pitchers. I, as a pitchers dad, have to admit that the aluminum bat played a part in my son's decision to go pro. They use ridiculous test speeds and justify by saying that there are more youth players than older players. Well please tell me the one who are at most risk. It is hs and above. They are pigs. jmo

PS. I don't mind the beer, but no scotch? Come on!

BBScout,
I don't think it is the big schools that would have the problem replacing the bats, true most get lots of financial kickbacks, some don't even pay for their equipment.
But what about the smaller schools that don't enjoy such priveledges?

Good post Big!

How about cork?

We have never, until this year, used metal bats for anything we do. The reason is I'm an old timer... the game is better with wood and last but not least I have a son who pitches.

Even wood can be dangerous, metal is lethal!

I think wood bats should be used at all levels. At least, until we run out of wood!

I hope this topic sticks around for awhile. I am extremely interested in joining in on this discussion.

quote:

Originally posted by Tiger Paw Mom:
BBScout,
I don't think it is the big schools that would have the problem replacing the bats, true most get lots of financial kickbacks, some don't even pay for their equipment.
But what about the smaller schools that don't enjoy such priveledges?

Good post Big!

How about cork?

TPM, All the JC's in the Northwest use wood, and they don't have any money. None of the top D1 schools pay for anything.....they get paid to use the products. Everyone used wood until the bat companies figured out that they could make a lot more money selling metal bats than wood bats.

This is the time, for several reasons:
1. For been fair with pitching.
2. To make easier the transition from collegue to pro.
3. To mainteing the natural origen of baseball

Interesting topic as just heard something the other day about the New York Catholic League (Varsity) going to wood effective next school season. This is a start and hopefully the public schools will follow.

In addition to academics and all the rest of the stuff, my son chose to transfer to a university that plays in an all wood bat league.

I think it was a primary reason why he chose the school - and I am glad he did so.

I hope my younger one - who is a pitcher - does the same.

The ball just comes off the metal too fast - and it makes good results out of bad at-bats. I never liked it and I never will. I think it distorts the game.

bbscout - I am glad I didnt see Willie in his tapered pants. LOL

I watched the Real Sports with Brian Gumbel last night. It was enlightening, to say the least. They indicated that the bats are "tested" with a 60 mph pitch, and a 70 mph swing (or vice versa, I don't recall exactly.) The point is that at those speeds, the speed of the ball off the bat is under 97 mph which is comparable to wood. HOWEVER, they do not do the testing at higher pitching speeds. At 80 mph pitch, the ball is coming off that bat at 114 mph. I cannot imagine how fast the balls are coming off of a 90+ mph pitcher.

The special also interviewed the parents of the young man from Miles City, MT who was killed after being hit in the head in a Legion game. It was heart rending.

I have always been rather nuetral on the question. But I don't think I'm nuetral any longer.

I know that American Legion here in Montana was very close to deciding on wood only for this season, but they ended up delaying the decision. It will be interesting to see how this plays out over the next couple of years.

You know we all have this same discussion on here several times each year, but no one ever offers any suggestions as to what we can do to really solve the problem or get some response from the governing authorities.

Anyone got any ideas on what we (HSBBW) folks as a group can do to make an impact, at least for HS & college.

I know we've got some lawyers that are on the boards regularly.

The governing body for college is NCAA/NAIA/NJCAA and high school is NFHS.

They, I assume would have to change the rules.

The composite bat is a great idea, tough & relatively in-expensive.

Any ideas folks ? Petition, letter ?

CV

I would think that given who the various governing bodies are - only intense and relentless media pressure will wake them up.

And even that is a very very long shot.

JMHO

There is absolutly no excuse for High Schools to still be using metal bats, None.

With the composite bat the old "can't afford wood bats" argument flies right out of the window.

Heck some even offer a warranty on the composites.

go to National Federation of High Schools and file your complaint.

CV

I've seen some close calls and, even, pitchers hit by batted balls off aluminum bats, but no one really suffered more than a bruise and/or a scare, until:

June 23, 2005, SLABA game at Florissant Valley J.C. in ST. Louis, MO. Big, hard-throwing, left-handed pitcher has one of his fastballs turned around by a big, hard-hitting slugger. The batted ball hit the pitcher so fast, and he fell so hard, I thought it hit him in the face. Actually, he was hit on his upper pitching arm, breaking it, although I don't know how bad the break is.

19 months ago, my boy got his first composite bat (a "Brett" bat), primarily to use on the yellow batting cage balls. It's still in one piece, even though it was used to the point that the head of the bat began to look slightly eliptical (no kidding!)...when he got a replacement. He hasn't gotten that much use, for that long a period, out of any of his $200+ aluminum bats! I'm sure there are "higher end" composites, but the only bat of this make I've seen broken was run over by a car and, yet, they sell for $52.00 at a local store...only slightly more than regular wood bats.

Much cheaper, lasts longer, and SAFER...seems like a no-brainer, to me!

quote:

Much cheaper, lasts longer, and SAFER...seems like a no-brainer, to me!

Apparently the people in charge have less brains than that.

quote:

The top D1 schools get big financial kick backs for using certain metal bats, along with gloves, shoes etc. Cost is not a problem, greed is the problem.

IMHO, no truer words were ever spoken.

How long has it been since you picked up a copy of "Baseball America" to find a full page ad featuring a smiling, college head coach touting his team's METAL bat?! Not long, I'll bet.

Since the pro's swing wood, who better to promote metal bats to younger players than successful college programs?

The "cost" to our sons is higher risk of injury and the experience of playing a game that doesn't fully prepare them for the next level if they're fortunate enough to take that step.

Some have spoken of the possibility of MLB subsidizing the colleges' switch to wood. The cost of substituting wood bats for their metal counterparts has to represent only a FRACTION of the cost when you consider the forfeited promotional income.

It's a shame.

OK, you guys had me 'til the alcohol part. Could have used some when my kid's average was going south.

Personally, I think my son is a better hitter with wood than metal. He concentrates better and thinks about mechanics because he knows he doesn't have the advantages of metal.

P.S. -- When I drink, despite my Irish-ness, folks tell me I usually go quiet. So why don't the umpires take me to the bar before every game?

It is so true that we have to get away from metal. I have been playing in a wood men's league for the last few years (the last year we played with metal there was six HR's hit the the championship game on a big field, the next year only two the whole year with wood on the same field). So I hooked up with Fall league team in a metal league and the first time on the mound I thought I was going to get killed. Never again just wood leagues for me. In the long run it will be cheaper for the parents so they don't have to buy a 300 dollar bat every year and hopefully save some kids life.

I was in one of the last classes to go all the way through college playing with wooden bats. I never swung an aluminum bat against live pitching until about 25 years after I stopped playing. On that particular day I was pitching batting practice to some high school kids, and when they were finished, I asked one to throw me some pitches. Eight swings resulted in two ground balls, two off the fence, and four over it. Given these results I came to the only possible conclusion: 25 years of sedentary living, coupled with occasional golf and tennis, no practice, failing eyesight and about 30+ unnecessary pounds, had turned me into a dangerous power hitter. The bat had nothing to do with it.

Seriously, anyone who has gone directly from a metal bat event to a PG event notices immediately a difference in the nature and character of the games. Perhaps it is the novelty, but it seems to me the players get greater enjoyment out of the wood bat events, and I certainly get greater enjoyment coaching or watching these events. I completely agree with CV "There is absolutely no excuse for High Schools to still be using metal bats, None."


I can't say for certain that Big Hit and TPM are off base with the contention that cost is the overwhelming factor in this equation, but I really don't believe the extra cost (if any) of buying wood bats (as opposed to lost endorsements etc.) should be that significant. (Besides, what is the cost of permanent injury or death?) Further, I think a rule change might dramatically lower the cost of wood bats.

Time travel back to the late 60s-early 70s. Louisville Slugger had a virtual monopoly on the bat market. Yes, there were a few other brands around, and Rawlings made a late push with its "big stick", but no self-respecting player would be caught without his 125, unless, of course, he had access to some pro bats. (There was a palpable difference in the bats Louisville made for its contract pros, and those distributed to the general public). Composite bats were also available, most notably "The Hickory Stick". These bats were virtually indestructible and were great hitting instruments for about a week or possibly two before they "lost their pop" and were essentially unusable for gameplay. (I don't know whether the newest versions of composites suffer the same infirmity, but nothing says you can't use these "dead" bats in batting cages etc.)

If I remember correctly (and I may not) the college provided its position players with 4-6 bats. The bats were approximately $5-6 each retail. I don't know what the college paid. To my recollection almost no one ever ran out of bats during the course of the season. The leftovers became team bats for the fall season and practice.

Fast-forward to the present: the real dollar-to-dollar cost of baseball equipment (with the possible exception of bats) has dropped dramatically. With respect to metal bats the market is again dominated by a handful of big companies paying little or no attention to the non-pro wood bat market. As a result, the competition for the small wood bat market is flourishing. Dozens of companies are making outstanding maple and ash bats for the professional and amateur markets. Buying these bats one at a time like most of us do, runs from $30-$80 apiece. But, buying these bats in quantities cuts these prices dramatically. (Check out some of the bat company web sites (or even eBay) for quantity discounts and specials. I just checked a site I have purchased from before and it has a special, buy 4 get 2 free which makes the cost of these excellent personalized pro maple bats $46 apiece. In real dollars this may be less than the cost of an ash bat 30 years ago. Maple bats are particularly durable. Two I bought from this company lasted almost two years). I'm not an economist, but I believe that the huge increase in sales volume caused by a rule change would allow these bat companies to dramatically lower their price per unit costs on wooden bats (of all types). Of course, the increased market is bound to attract attention from some of the big companies again working to drive the prices lower, particularly for large volume sales.

I can't speak for anyplace else but, in the programs down here that I am familiar with, the parents buy the bats- high school and summer. That means every year approx. $200+ for a metal bat and another $200 or so for wood bats purchased one at a time. A switch to wood would not have been significantly more expensive for me, even at today's prices. Politics and promotional fees, well that's a different story.

If I remember correctly, in 1997 or 1998 the colleges were going to switch to wood.
I had a friend whose son was at Univ Ark Little Rock, when he left for Christmas break his coach had all the players come by to pick up a half dozen wood bats to practice with while on break because they were supposed to use wood during the spring season.
When he got back to school the coach informed the players the decision was made to stay with metal bats. It seemed like the metal bat companies put so much pressure on them they gave into the companies.
I really don't remember all the details but I believe this was correct. Of course that is about the time they change to -3 bats from -5.
If anyone else has any memory of this I would appreciate your story.

Here's the contact:

Dr. Frederick O. Mueller
Chairman, Department of Exercise and Sport Science
204 Fetzer Gym, CB# 8700
University of North Carolina
Chapel Hill, NC 27599
email: mueller@email.unc.edu



Tragically, it's all about the money the bat manufacturers give to the schools & lack of support from league organizations, like American Legion......
http://www.legion.org/?section=pub_relations&subsection...press_release&id=285

Baum Bat has this to say:http://www.baumbat.com/page5.htm

NCAA was granted "indemnity" from bat manufacturer, acknowleging the metal bat is higher risk, but shifts the "assumption of risk" onto the player...

http://www.ncaa.org/news/1999/19990329/active/3607n02.html

Another law suit againt Louisville Slugger:

http://www.varsityedge.com/nei/varsity.nsf/0/cb25dfb5df...0644a53?OpenDocument


An excerpt from http://abclocal.go.com/wls/news/specialsegments/050805_ss_priceofpower.html


When the NCAA first approved metal bats 30-years ago, they were largely unregulated. Home runs and hits went through the roof as technology improved.

In 1998, the NCAA set standards, intending to make metal bats perform more like wood. Batting averages have settled down. But critics say metal bats still have a much larger sweet spot than wood...making it easier to hit harder.

The Consumer Product Safety Commission has studied the matter. It found from 1991 to 2001, there were 17 deaths due to impact with a batted ball. Of those, 8 involved metal bats. Two were from wood. The rest -- unknown.

The CPSC decided against stiffer regulations because overall, baseball injuries have gone down in recent years.

But longtime followers of the game, like Loyal Park, a hall of fame college coach who teaches in Northfield today, say there's an obvious reason metal hasn't invaded the pros -- and that's safety.

"It'll never happen in pro ball....they can't because the ball will get to the pitcher's mound with such velocity it would be death alley really," said Park.

Everyone seems to agree metal will never appear in the pros. But six college conferences have switched back to wood only in the last few years. That is, however, only six out of the hundreds that still use metal.

At the colege level, we know the "greed" factor is involved in the decision to use a specific metal bat exspecially at the DI level. However, I think DIII could very easily tranistion to wood bats. They do not have the sponsorship problem to oercome. Also, as Florida Dad indicated the cost factor really is not an issue.

My son's also a pitcher, and I favor wood bats. Wood bats take away the "cheap" hit, what was a long shot in the gap with a metal bat becomes a fly ball with a wood bat. That means less pitches over the cource of a game, etc.

The safety question aside wood makes the game what it is supposed to be--pitchers can pitch--hitters can hit and it is all real

We have taken our 14 team tournament to wood this year--pure baseball is back

It is about Greed! You can't patent wood, but every year a new aluminum alloy gets trademarked. Making that company the exclusive user of that design. That measns more $$$.

And as for exit speeds ... It's not the sweet spot hits from wood, it's the off center hits that really make the diff! The enlarged sweet spot from metal makes the biggest diff in my mind.

Our HS team started hosting a woodbat tournament in 2004. The tournament has pool play for 8 teams. The first year we had the limit on teams wanting to play in this tourney. This past year we had to turn down 4 teams. We have more and more teams wanting to play in these type of tournaments. But, we also have noticed that some of the teams in our region don't want to play due to it being a woodbat tourney. The coach's of these teams said that it would hurt their player's confidence.

In this year's regional tournament we had a game where 5 HR's were hit. In all, I believe that there were, at least, 11 hit in 7 games.

We played a game last week where one of the opposing team's SS was hit by a hard hit, bouncing ground ball. Our infield is turf and that had something to do with it. The batter was using the new Easton Stealth. The SS lost a couple teeth.

In a game last night the same bat was used and the batter hit a lined shot up the middle to center. The pitcher said that if wouldn't have had a quicker reaction time, he would have been hit in the head.

I don't know what we can do to get the NFHS or the NCAA to "outlaw" metal bats. They are dangerous and possibly lethal. Maybe we need to start a petition of some kind, I don't know. Easton, Louisville Slugger, Nike, Rawlings, and Mizuno won't go out of business if they quit making metal bats. These companies also make gloves, batting gloves, helmets, and so on. It's just going to have to take an effort on our part, the parents, to make changes.

One solution - perhaps harder done than said - is to make sure your kid doesnt participate in metal bat games whenever possible. For us - with the younger one - that is pretty much the whole summer. (High school is still a problem).

For the older one - problem solved - no more metal cannons. Just wood.

Let the metal bat company executives' put their kids on the mound. Thats what I would like to see.