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For what it's worth

PH Pat H100+ posts
Been a while since I posted but I thought I'd throw this up. Hopefully it will help some young chuckers that may be in the position my son was in last year. My son, who is an 8th grader this year, experienced arm soreness last year to the poiont where we shut him down after summer. He played fall ball but did not pitch (he made 1 start, but was sore for the most part). Yes I had him looked at by a doctor and xrays were perfect and doc said it was overuse. well obviously as baseball ended, his arm soreness went away and basketball took over. He had winter workouts once a week with his travel team and did some indoor mound work, and no soreness. Which was good. I thought maybe we were finally past the arm soreness issue (again no sharp pain..arm soreness. Well fast forward to the beginning of this season. First middle school practice: soreness reared it's ugly head. At this point I have done so much reading and talked to so many different people I was overwhelmed and did not know where to turn or talk to. I though about a throwing analysis at one of our local doc office. But it's EXPENSIVE. Keep in mind that his coaches, a former major league pitcher turned instructor, trainers...etc have all watched him throw and all have commented on how his mechanics are near perfect. But something wasn't right...soreness was still there. Then by chance a new neighbor moves in nextdoor. He is a pitcher in the Independent league in LA. He is from our area and he teaches pitching to kids in the off-season. So we get to talking about baseball and tell him about my son and he offers to throw with him whenever he wants. Well we invite them over for dinner one night, and before that he wants to see Zach throw. One wind up was all it took. He saw it. He says, "he's leaking forward". I said, "What the hell does that mean?". Front foot landing before his throwing arm was up. And I saw it as I caught him. So now I learn more. And better yet he feels it. He was suddenly throwing just as fast with much less effort on his arm. "Staying back" is something I have never heard in pitching. Well after a few backyard sessions on our mound, drills on staying back, my son has had 2 starts. First start 89 pitches, no pain (I had asked the coach to keep him around 85 if he could which he has.) Second start, the coach went out to pull him at 87. My son looks at me and says I feel great I want to finish the inning. Just over 100 pitches, and no pain. He struck out the last batter he faced swinging on a FB. Now I'm not saying this was THE cure for his soreness. But I will offer this, if your young pitcher is complaining of soreness (my son's was around mid bicep) try taking a look at where his arm is when his plant foot hits. If his arm is down, he maybe working too hard. Good luck to all!
"Go show your father that baseball." - Sandy Koufax (this is what Sandy Koufax said to me after he signed my baseball and found out I didn't know who he was. I was 12 yrs old.)
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GM Gingerbread Man500+ posts
Pat H,

That's good news! Hopefully things work out for your boy. It's interesting that the first thing I look for when watching any pitcher is where there arm is at foot contact- is it already up in the power position or is it still moving upwards getting to that position. I have noted a direct correlation with cronic arm pain (especially elbow soreness) and arms that are late getting into the power position. The arm actually works against itself if it is not in the proper position. If the arm isn't in it's proper position then you got your torso violently trying to pull an arm forward when in fact the arm is still moving in the opposite direction. So, it ends up getting violently whipped forward and placed under greater stress loads over an extended amount of time.

A baseball camp we went to last year went over this and they did a drill of making sure the arm was up in the power position at foot plant.
Last edited by Gingerbread Man
GM Gingerbread Man500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Coach_Dave:
quote:
Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
Pat H,


A baseball camp we went to last year went over this and they did a drill of making sure the arm was up in the power position at foot plant.



What was the drill?


Also Pat H what was the drill your son used? thanks in advance.


Real simple- the drill was to start in the stretch position, then move into the normal windup and have the players stop their motion and freeze at the moment of foot contact. Those who were in the power position were not corrected while the others who weren't were corrected and taught to lead with the ball rather than the elbow. They were shown that after hand break both arms lead in opposite directions until foot plant. Once pitchers realize that they need to be in that power position at foot plant, it cures all kinds of timing issues. It was interesting to watch those who were behind because they were still trying to maneuver their arm into the power position long after foot plant and making extra girations.

Most players who are behind in their arm motion are those who lead with the elbow after hand break rather than lead with the ball.
Last edited by Gingerbread Man
PH Pat H100+ posts
Similar to GBM, although it really wasn't that involved. The issue (at least with my son) wasn't necessarily his arm it was his body wanting to go forward before he started his throw. So when we did the "stop" drill, it was when he was told to stop. It wasn't at the point of his plant foot, it was before his stride. He was leaning forward (or "leaking") right after he broke. My feeling is that it was a combination of balance and timing. So the guy simply put his arm up in front or held his shirt and let go and the timing of it fell into place.
CADadCADad5,000+ posts
This reminds me of the elbow high or elbow low in hitting. The instructors get locked into one or the other as ideal every decade or so and the MLB hitters continue to do whatever works best.

The reality is that most MLB pitchers are around halfway between parallel and vertical at initial foot contact. The harder throwers tend to be a bit more toward parallel. Being parallel or below puts the arm at risk one way and being vertical and beyond puts the arm at risk another way.

There's no way to determine where they actually are at foot plant because foot plant is a continuum and the arm position varies a lot over that time. The "gurus" tend to just pick a position that matches whatever they are pushing. One group that was pushing their product used an image of Strasburg before his foot even made contact to prove their point that they had "predicted" that he'd have arm problems even though at initial foot contact he was actually within their safe range.

Here's an image of Strasburg at foot plant:

Strasburg at foot plant

Here's another image of Strasburg at foot plant:

Strasburg at foot plant

Sorry but arm position at foot plant doesn't mean a #*%^ thing.

BTW, the reason having the arm in the "power position" early tends to be a problem is because for most pitchers it is the result of opening early and not a choice that they make. Opening early is hard on the arm.

BTW, there is one pitcher who is clearly late even at foot plant - Tim Lincecum. I don't see the gurus predicting arm injuries for him anymore. Why not?
Last edited by CADad
SultanofSwatSultanofSwat10,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by CADad:
This reminds me of the elbow high or elbow low in hitting. The instructors get locked into one or the other as ideal every decade or so and the MLB hitters continue to do whatever works best.


MLB hitters have their back elbow up at toe touch. Always have. (well... Paul Molitor left in 98) I agree, instructors are idiots.


quote:

Being parallel or below puts the arm at risk one way and being vertical and beyond puts the arm at risk another way.

... Sorry but arm position at foot plant doesn't mean a #*%^ thing.


These 2 lines seem contradictory.

quote:
Here's an image of Strasburg at foot plant:

Here's another image of Strasburg at foot plant:


This is why you/we should take images from a video only, so you know exactly which frame this is. Also, you need to know if these were game tosses, warmups, or what.


BTW, I love ya man, just picking on you a little. Big Grin
Last edited by SultanofSwat
CADadCADad5,000+ posts
Parallel or below at initial foot contact. Vertical or beyond at initial foot contact.

Video or not you can't determine when foot plant takes place because it is a continuum and people will pick the spot along the way that they prefer. I've seen enough video of Strasburg to know that he hits both these points along the way.

I'd have to go back and look at video but I don't believe Williams had his up at toe touch. Perhaps his elbow was up though despite his hands being low. I don't know.
GM Gingerbread Man500+ posts
Perhaps it needs better definition then. It does matter where your arm is at initial foot contact or slightly afterwards generally speaking because the moment of foot contact is the point where the very next action of the torso is to bring the pitching side arm through to release. If the arm is lagging behind at foot contact then it still has to go back and be brought up to the power position before it can be brought forward into release. The reason it creates added stress on the elbow is because the arm is working against itself- while the torso is wanting or trying to pull the arm through to release, the arm is moving in the opposite direction. So, at some point after the trunk begins to unwind into release, the arm gets up to the power position only to get yanked back forward in that instant causing a high load of stress on the elbow. The "amount" of time the forearmarm is horizontally coc-ked back also increases causing stress over a "greater" duration of time.

As to if pitchers can throw harder if their arm is lagging is still out for the jury to decide. I was watching the closer for some team just the other night who brought his arm into the power position well before foot plant and he was consistantly in the 97-99 mph range with a very easy fluid delivery.

The timing of the arm does matter for the overall health of a pitcher's arm. For most I believe there is some wiggle room either way on the exact timing such as one can be a little behind and not have it effect him. I have seen cases however where the timing is so far behind that their body is squared up to home plate and the arm is still back trying to get in the power position.
CADadCADad5,000+ posts
GBM,
You mean like Lincecum?

There's more than one way to throw the ball and most of the ones who throw hard with the ball getting into the power position "early" are guys like Matt Cain who counter rotate and therefore start opening earlier relative to foot strike. Papelbon is another example.

The pitchers who tend to be more direct to the plate are the ones who tend to have less external rotation at initial foot contact.

The reality is that pitchers find out what works for them and go with it. Everyone is different and for some what makes them throw harder puts them at higher risk for injury. Injury risk vs. not throwing hard enough risk.

My son who is the epitome of being in the power position early ended up with a contracture in his elbow. He lost velocity and had absolutely no issues whatsoever with pain or soreness anymore as a result. He very quickly went to trying to bring the ball up elbow first to try to get the velocity back because not playing anymore was not an acceptable option for him.
Last edited by CADad
PH Pat H100+ posts
This is why I don't post anymore. My initial point was to post a possible solution to what was bothering my kid for a bit of time last year and early this year. It made sense when I saw/it and heard it. My son's body was heading toward the catcher and his arm was down. Body motion and weight seemd to out race his arm and his arm had some "catch up" to do with his body. He made some adjustments and now is happy about pithcing without arm soreness. I merely thought it was helpful and now I get responses that it doesn't mean an effin thing. So with that being said I will no longer offer up advise, and I'm not getting into an online shouting match. Good luck to the youngsters out here.
CADadCADad5,000+ posts
Sorry to hurt your feelings but what you described was more about being out of sync and rushing than where the arm was at foot plant. The pitching coach got him in sync and the arm got to it's natural location.

Now the arm being early or late does make a difference and that difference can be determined right at the moment when the foot first touches the ground. It just doesn't mean much at foot plant because the foot is planted and planting for a long time relative to how fast the arm is moving and people tend to interpret where the arm is at foot plant based on their own agendas.

Your advice might help some kids. On the other hand Tim Lincecum's arm is later than anyone else's in baseball as far as I can tell. When his foot first touches his arm is almost vertical downwards. That does put more stress on his arm but it also is part of what helps him throw so hard relative to his size.

BTW, staying back has been a tenet of pitching coaches since close to the beginning of time. Nowadays many pitching coaches believe that it is more a matter of staying in sequence rather than staying back and they recommend moving forward right away as long as the head stays with or behind the hips. Given that there are pitchers who literally pause and can throw hard it is probably more a matter of individual preference regarding going forward right away or stopping at the balance position. Roy Oswalt goes forward more aggressively than anyone else I've seen and he throws quite hard and quite well and also tends to get his arm up fairly early just because that's the type of arm action he has.
Last edited by CADad
CADadCADad5,000+ posts
GBM,
According to the people who actually did the studies anywhere from 0 to 90 degrees (90 degrees being vertical and 0 being parallel) at initial foot contact is the acceptable range. The optimum is somewhere around 53 degrees and the stresses go up somewhat as you go away from that angle toward 90 degrees. As you go toward 0 degrees some stresses are increased and some are actually decreased.

The decreased stresses may be a side effect of staying closed longer as that tends to delay external rotation.

There's a lot of variation in where a pitcher can be at foot contact and if you look at MLB pitchers there's a lot of variation in where MLB pitchers are at foot contact.

JMO, but I think that sometimes pitchers will intentionally delay the arm beyond the ability of the arm to catch up and that can cause problems. Pitchers are probably best served finding out how much they can delay external rotation and still catch up as that will probably result in the best combination of velocity and safety for most. Once again JMO.
Last edited by CADad
GM Gingerbread Man500+ posts
CADad,

Where I find the noticable differences which lead to elbow pain are that the kids I have watched through the years having late arm movement and often also leading too high with the elbow. It all causes a timing problem.

Perhaps we can agree what is more important here is what relation their torso is with home plate at the moment the hand gets to the high power position. Even Lincecum's shoulders are still facing third at that moment.

I often look to see if it looks like the arm has a hard whipping action as a sign of timing problems. If the timing is off the arm will look like a bullwhip in action violently jerking the arm through it's motions.

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