Force out?

He is right in that the run counted. A tag is not the same as a force. Once the player got the runner heading back to second the fielder could have turned around and ran to third and got the force there. The runner could have been drinking gatorade in the dugout and he would still be out. But once the tag was made that means the runs scores because the defense chose not to take advantage of the force.

Maybe a real ump can explain it better but that is how I have always interpreted it.

I am almost positive that in this case the umpire kicked the call since the runner was forced off of the bag. It does not matter that he is physically tagged, but that he was "forced" by the fact that the bases were loaded and the ball was hit on the ground. Correct me if you think I'm wrong, caus' I'm not 100 percent on this, but I don't see how this could go any other way.

johntaine21 is correct. It matters not whether you tag the runner or tag the base, as long as the force is in effect the run doesn't count. Many coaches and umpires confuse this distinction. The smarter play is probably to tag the base when the R2 starts back to second but the end result is three outs and no run.

OBR rules don't actually define "force out", but Jaksa/Roder does: "It is a force out when a forced runner fails to touch (or pass) his advance base before his person or the base is tagged (includes an appeal of his failure to touch the advance base and a forced runner exiting his baseline)."

The NFHS rulebook says: " A force-out is a putout during which a runner who is being forced to advance is tagged out, or is put out by a fielder who holds the ball while touching the base toward which the forced runner is advancing."

Finally rule NFHS 9-1-b: " A run is not scored if the runner advances to home plate during action in which the third out is made as follows:
....
b. by another runner being forced out."

So the run should not have scored, and this holds for any rule code.

quote:

A runback/down ensues eventually tagging the runner out, but the umpire declares that the runner on 3rd scored before the out was recorded and thus the run counts.

No run...

I think blue was punishing em for "A RUN DOWN" tell me there wasn't a throw involved?

You know, I saw this called once, thankfully I wasn't involved, but bases loaded 2 out, ground ball too F1 who chases and tags BR as R3 scores. Blue says "that's a tag, not a force, run scores".

This was two adult teams, and not a peep out anybody? I still can't believe it..

Well, I can tell you this...

I tried to explain why it wasn't a force to the umpire. No raised voices, no yelling. But he threatened to toss me if I said one more word.

Didn't really wanna protest, so I went to the T.D. and he backed up the umpire on the call.

I asked them to research it and email me their apology. I suppose that was a bit sarcastic, but no email yet.

Thats an apology that won't come....even thought it needs to....

Im going to repost this in here as it seems to apply...

There is a belief among many Umpire trainers that many coach ejections are the direct result of an umpiring mistake. Such as the one you relate above.

The umpire did not know the rule. When faced with your logic and rules knowledge he compounded his error by threatening to eject you.

This is probably one of the worst things an umpire can do....and that is replace rules knowledge with the game controlling power that the rules give us....

weak (in rules knowledge and skill) umpires use the threat of ejection.

I agree that many ejections are the results of the umpire not knowing the rules, but I would venture to say that there are as many, if not more, ejections because the coaches do not know the rules.

Amazingly I am wrong again but I am getting used to it. At least now I know the real rule for future reference.

Ok let me ask for a situation since I think is was piaa_ump who kind of brought it up.

In the situation mentioned runner at 2B heads back but a run down does happen (we are dealing with teenagers so crazier things can happen). After 3 throws is that still a force out situation as you mentioned and run does not count or does the rundown change everything and the run counts.

Let's assume the ump and coaches know the rule and there is no argument.

I am just curious.

The only thing that changes the force is if someone is putout behind the runner being played on.
In other words, as long as the BR is safe at first, R1 is safe at second, then R2 is forced to third and R3 is forced home. If you run R2 back and forth 10 times and tag him, it's still a force.

BTW - I was a "plug-in" coach in this game...head coach got sick and we were on the road. So I had no rule book with me.

But I could not convince anyone there (neither umpire nor the T.D.) that this was still a force. Even after the game when cooler heads should have prevailed, no dice. This was at a fairly high-level tournament...a popular tournament for West Coast teams in Las Vegas. Pretty disappointing.

Next time, protest, pay the fee, watch umpire/TD eat crow.


On the other post - you can have a rundown that takes 10,000 throws to execute (and I've seen those before ).....if the following runner is not out, the force is still in effect.

quote:

Next time, protest, pay the fee, watch umpire/TD eat crow.

I've done that before. It was fun.

It scares me when I really think about how many don't seem to know this rule, and others of course, but this seems a no brainer or does it?

Just these few posts and we've Id'd at least; what a couple dozen, between Umpires (TD-UIC) and the two working the game, coaches, players and I'm sure a few fans, just in the games mentioned here.
And I think there's only one reason; read the rule book..

And ya know I'm pretty sure that if, I'd a never done anything other than play, I'd a never read one either. In fact had never seen or held one until I became a coach and they gave us one in our package. Probably the best valued book I ever got. It's written pretty weird but the info is all there. I like the comment; "confusion regarding this play is removed...." by adding a bunch of confusion.

From OBR:
2.00
A FORCE PLAY is a play in which a runner legally loses his right to occupy a base by reason of the batter becoming a runner.

Rule 2.00 (Force Play) comment: Confusion regarding this play is removed by remembering that frequently the “force” situation is removed during the play. Example: Man on first, one out, ball hit sharply to first baseman who touches the bag and batter-runner is out. The force is removed at that moment and runner advancing to second must be tagged.

If there had been a runner on third or second, and either of these runners scored before the tag-out at second, the run counts. Had the first baseman thrown to second and the ball then had been returned to first, the play at second was a force out, making two outs, and the return throw to first ahead of the runner would have made three outs. In that case, no run would score.

Example: Not a force out. One out. Runner on first and third. Batter flies out. Two out. Runner on third tags up and scores. Runner on first tries to retouch before throw from fielder reaches first baseman, but does not get back in time and is out. Three outs. If, in umpire’s judgment, the runner from third touched home before the ball was held at first base, the run counts.