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Freshman Class?

wraggArmwraggArm500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by bbknut:

While they will definitely make waves in the next few years, the here and now SHOULD wait.


I agree, especially for the majority of normally-sized kids who don't get "harvested" for the here and now.

I'm curious to hear from 5A coaches on why they don't invest more time/energy into growing their Freshmen class. It seems to me like a wise coach would view those Freshmen in much the same way as a good college coach invests in his recruiting. Also seems like the harder a coach works with underclassmen, the easier it will be to win when those kids come up to Varsity.


"Where lipstick is concerned, the important thing is not color, but to accept God's final word on where your lips end."
Last edited by wraggArm
TO thinking out loud10+ posts
I agree wraggArm! Why don't some coaches invest anytime on the freshman or the sophomore players? I can't answer for those coaches, but I wish I could get in their head for just a minute. Confused

I know that sometimes freshman and sophomores are moved up to varsity and won't get to set their feet on the field. So, why move them up if they are not utilized? I know a coach in our district that really works with all the kids in his program and his team is very successful! Why ignore players if they have potential for the present and the future?
Jewels4BaseballJewels4Baseball100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by thinking out loud:
I know that sometimes freshman and sophomores are moved up to varsity and won't get to set their feet on the field. So, why move them up if they are not utilized?


I think sometimes coaches move those players up to Varsity so they can be in the Varsity "atmosphere" and observe the different leadership roles and perhaps learn from that. I think they also bring them up in playoff situations to be in that atmosphere in the hopes that it won't be such a leg shaking experience once they are on the field in that situation. I believe that is good for the player. For any Freshman parents out there that are experiencing HS Baseball for the first time, it is a different game atmosphere then even the highest select level (from my experience last year). Especially for those HS teams that make a playoff run year after year.

Last edited by Jewels4Baseball
T 62tiger10+ posts
In 2006 when Katy lost to TWHS in the State Finals there were 3 Freshman on Varsity. One was the starting catcher and batted in the 4 hole. One was a relief pitcher who came in and won both wins of the Reg 3 final. The other was a pinch hitter/runner. All three contributed.

They are committed to Tx State, UT and TCU respectively.

With the high level of play kids play at 12, 13 and 14 some are ready. A lot depends on the Coach.

Mac has no problem playing the best kid, no matter his age or grade. Others stay with the older kids.
wraggArmwraggArm500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by catcher:
If you can play, you can play...thats it...Put the best 9 out there and get after it...


I can understand elevating well-developed or advanced Freshmen to JV/V. I'm really asking about the rest of the starters that you leave down on the Freshmen team. The ones who will eventually fill out your Varsity - why are so many coaches disinterested in how those squads are chosen and developed ?
F funneldrill1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by wraggArm:


I'm curious to hear from 5A coaches on why they don't invest more time/energy into growing their Freshmen class. It seems to me like a wise coach would view those Freshmen in much the same way as a good college coach invests in his recruiting. Also seems like the harder a coach works with underclassmen, the easier it will be to win when those kids come up to Varsity.


"Where lipstick is concerned, the important thing is not color, but to accept God's final word on where your lips end."


wraggarm,

I am a 5A Head Coach. At Freshman tryouts, all of our coaches will be out there evaluating every single kid. Afterward we will be in our "war room" (which is fancy coach speak for coaches office) going over all the data we have accumulated during the tryout process. I make all player personel decisions in my program. My assistants give input, but the buck stops with me! Am I going to get every decision correct...probably not over the long haul. But every decision that I make comes with many hours of evaluation and with the burden that my decision on a kid will probably affect him (and maybe his family) for the rest of his life.

I run my program much in the same way as a MLB organization does. I would hold the titles of Manager of MLB team, General Manager, Major League Scouting Director, Minor League Player Development Director, Director of Amateur Scouting, Chief Financial Officer, and Vice-President of Marketing (booster club).

My freshman team would be Rookie-Class A. They have a coach that works with them on a daily basis. We will have a designated day of the week where I will work with ALL sub-varsity pitchers (Oh, I'm also the pitching coach). As a coaching staff, we will work with the freshman as much as possible during the season (admittedly that's not much).

JV would be Double A-Triple A. These guys are an injury or grade issue away from being called up to the big club. Those kids are all told, "just because you start the year on JV, doesn't mean you will end the season there."

Varsity = Major Leagues. These guys are here for a reason, to play or fill a specific role. If they are not doing either one of these and they are an underclassman, they should be on the JV team where they can be playing every day.

The time of the year that we dedicate to "player development" is off-season, not during the season. I spend as much time with my sophomores in the baseball class as I do my seniors in the fall. Those kids are the future! I want my program to "reload" every year, not rebuild. My goal for my freshman is...when they are seniors, they have heard the same stuff that I am telling them for the last 4 years whether it comes from me or the sub-varsity coaches. To me, that is a program!

Now if I'd just stay some place more than 2 years...

Anyway, that is how 1 5A coach does things. Not sure if it is the best way, but it has worked for me every place that I have been.

A little over a week away...great weather this week and next week until Friday. Then you can expect about 35 degrees with a light rain! Big Grin
F Fantasy41110+ posts
That is awesome wish our 5A coach did a qtr the stuff you do for underclassmen. Just curious if grades come into the evaluation at all, if you have a kid who is struggling a little bit with grades but mostly gets by, but is at risk of being ineligible do you cut him or mark him down a notch. Also do you have pitchers only at Freshmen/JV level?
Old School79Old School791,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by funneldrill:
quote:
Originally posted by wraggArm:


I'm curious to hear from 5A coaches on why they don't invest more time/energy into growing their Freshmen class. It seems to me like a wise coach would view those Freshmen in much the same way as a good college coach invests in his recruiting. Also seems like the harder a coach works with underclassmen, the easier it will be to win when those kids come up to Varsity.


"Where lipstick is concerned, the important thing is not color, but to accept God's final word on where your lips end."


wraggarm,

I am a 5A Head Coach. At Freshman tryouts, all of our coaches will be out there evaluating every single kid. Afterward we will be in our "war room" (which is fancy coach speak for coaches office) going over all the data we have accumulated during the tryout process. I make all player personel decisions in my program. My assistants give input, but the buck stops with me! Am I going to get every decision correct...probably not over the long haul. But every decision that I make comes with many hours of evaluation and with the burden that my decision on a kid will probably affect him (and maybe his family) for the rest of his life.

I run my program much in the same way as a MLB organization does. I would hold the titles of Manager of MLB team, General Manager, Major League Scouting Director, Minor League Player Development Director, Director of Amateur Scouting, Chief Financial Officer, and Vice-President of Marketing (booster club).

My freshman team would be Rookie-Class A. They have a coach that works with them on a daily basis. We will have a designated day of the week where I will work with ALL sub-varsity pitchers (Oh, I'm also the pitching coach). As a coaching staff, we will work with the freshman as much as possible during the season (admittedly that's not much).

JV would be Double A-Triple A. These guys are an injury or grade issue away from being called up to the big club. Those kids are all told, "just because you start the year on JV, doesn't mean you will end the season there."

Varsity = Major Leagues. These guys are here for a reason, to play or fill a specific role. If they are not doing either one of these and they are an underclassman, they should be on the JV team where they can be playing every day.

The time of the year that we dedicate to "player development" is off-season, not during the season. I spend as much time with my sophomores in the baseball class as I do my seniors in the fall. Those kids are the future! I want my program to "reload" every year, not rebuild. My goal for my freshman is...when they are seniors, they have heard the same stuff that I am telling them for the last 4 years whether it comes from me or the sub-varsity coaches. To me, that is a program!

Now if I'd just stay some place more than 2 years...

Anyway, that is how 1 5A coach does things. Not sure if it is the best way, but it has worked for me every place that I have been.

A little over a week away...great weather this week and next week until Friday. Then you can expect about 35 degrees with a light rain! Big Grin


To:Funnel
Nice job, COACH.
I started to step in and respond to wrag arm. I however knew that one of our under paid, over worked hs coaches would be more than able to stand up for themselves with this question.

Wragg, get a clue, most of the hs coaches, can and will evaluate the fish in a hurry. They do not need to look thru the same rose colered glasses that parents want them to see from behind.

The high school coaches evaluate, teach and train, anywhere from 60-100 kids in most under funded high school baseball programs. And believe it or not, they're still expected to compete and win district, qualify for the play offs and even win State every now and then.

All of this being done with an instructor ratio of 15-25 to 1. Pretty impressive from my end
F funneldrill1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Fantasy411:
That is awesome wish our 5A coach did a qtr the stuff you do for underclassmen. Just curious if grades come into the evaluation at all, if you have a kid who is struggling a little bit with grades but mostly gets by, but is at risk of being ineligible do you cut him or mark him down a notch. Also do you have pitchers only at Freshmen/JV level?


Fantasy411,

Great questions! First, grades do play a part of the process. If there is a kid that has not been eligible all year, chances are we won't keep him regardless of talent. If we have 1 spot left and we are down to 2 or 3 kids, then grades could be a tiebreaker. Now, this is easy for me to do at my school because we'll have 60-80 Freshman come to tryouts.

Pitcher only at the Freshman/JV level is a touchy subject. For the Freshman I would say no, unless the kid comes to me and says coach, I just want to pitch (don't remember this ever happening). By the end of the Freshman year we may target a few guys as pitcher only. It works best for everyone if those guys come to that conclusion by themselves. However, it becomes "easier" when I have 9 other guys that are just flat out better hitters than them (not just me saying it is enough, the stat page must show it as well!)...of course 15 would be better!

Bottom line, if the kid can hit, he will hit regardless if he is a pitcher or not. My #1 will not hit this year, my #2 has the most power on the team but needs to mix in a little more contact to get in the line-up (he puts on a major league BP display I mean tape measure jobs!!!), my # 3 is our starting CF and should hit for himself.

Anyway, hope this helps!
wraggArmwraggArm500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by funneldrill:

To me, that is a program!

Now if I'd just stay some place more than 2 years...

Anyway, that is how 1 5A coach does things. Not sure if it is the best way, but it has worked for me every place that I have been.



funneldrill - This is truly an impressive program outline, and I think you will have a hugely competitive advantage in your district as you get the chance work this investment in your underclassmen.


Old School 79 - Thank you so much for taking the time to set my ignorant self straight. I must have just gotten carried away with some daydream of experiences that I never really had, leaving me to ask a question that was so out of line.
F funneldrill1,000+ posts
wraggarm,

You have nothing to apologize for. Every parent wants what is best for their child, as a coach and a parent myself, I understand that.

What alot of parents don't understand is that when you have 60-80 sophomores, juniors and seniors trying out for 40-45 spots, some tough decisions have to be made by the coach. I met with every kid in the baseball class just recently and told them where they stand and what were some of the things they needed to work on. Some were told that they do not have a roster spot guaranteed to them...it is a numbers thing. Then I get an email from a parent telling me how great their son is and that they don't understand how their child doesn't have a roster spot guaranteed at this time. This parent gave me their select baseball resume and how all these teams want their son to play for them. Then I pointed out how great that is and that just about every other kid in my program can say the same thing.

Look to all the parents out there, I know that I am not perfect. I am not 100% right all the time, I know that. At our banquet last year I publicly apologized to a kid and his parents for not giving their son more opportunites. The kid is one of the hardest working kids I've ever coached, probably the best "team" player I have ever coached, hit over .400 last year with about 25 at bats. From the time we were knocked out of the playoff until the banquet I lost alot of sleep over it. He got 4 at bats in the 2 playoff series and had 3 hits! What was I thinking? Every time we gave the kid a chance I came through! It is one of the low lights of my coaching career and I am not afraid to say it.

Saying that though, and this may sound arrogant and if it does I apologize, with my 13 years as a head coach, my 3 years as a scout, and when a guy who is regarded as the nation's top recruiting coordinator calls you for input about players in your area...I am very confident in my ability as a talent and skills evaluator. When parents question that, sure, I get offended. But, I have to move on and do what is best for the program. I have to do what is best for the 60-70 kids in the program, not just 1 or 2.

Anyway, sorry for the rant. I guess I needed to vent a little.
Old School79Old School791,000+ posts
quote:
I must have just gotten carried away with some daydream of experiences that I never really had, leaving me to ask a question that was so out of line.



WA, your not out of line. Just out of context. as funnel stated, he has well over 60-70 kids in his program. I'm pretty sure that his, and other assistant coaches are teaching and training the underclassmen as the Head Coach instructs them to do. Generally the same amount of field/cage time as the Varsity. If a Fish is better than Varsity players, then any good coach will give him a look.

However, the head coaches of most baseball programs, because of time restraints and current focus. Just do not have the time to work with the Freshman teams.

UIL basically prohibits coaches from having any type of baseball contact during the Summer. Some high school programs actually have baseball classes. This is a big plus when available, this concept actually allows the coaches to work with players during Fall and Winter. If the coach is not having to help with the Football or Basketball teams.
LOL
F funneldrill1,000+ posts
old school,

Great points! Here I only have my assistant in the class. My period and football are the same, so my subvarsity guys that are in football are not with us until after school. So, our JV guys in the class have to wait for the JV coach to get out there after school.

This is not the baseball utopian set up, but it is better than 90% of the places out there.
Old School79Old School791,000+ posts
quote:
"Son, don't give me no bull butter 'bout no slump, ain't no such thing. Hittin' is timin', pitching is upsetting your timin'. Son, if you think you are in a slump then you're a thinker and there ain't no room in this game for thinkers! You leave the thinkin' to me and you just go and play!!!"


Ok coach, who's the new quote from?
F funneldrill1,000+ posts
That is quote from my high school coach, Tommy Cantrell. He had some classics and boy did he know hitting. He was Baltimore's top 3B prospect in the late 50's. He was stuck behind a pretty good one, you might of heard of him, Brooks Robinson! He led the Florida State League in hitting one year, I think he hit some where in the .350 neighborhood.

Best story about him, he was about 50 years old, his son was playing in the DABA and their team only had 8. So coach gets out there in RF and hits in the 9 hole. Baylor's ace, Pat Combs, was pitching for the other team. Coach gets up there against Pat and laces a single off the wall at Reverchon (sp.?)Park. Only got a single because he could not run. Greatness!!!
G 4genball10+ posts
Best story about him, he was about 50 years old, his son was playing in the DABA and their team only had 8. So coach gets out there in RF and hits in the 9 hole. Baylor's ace, Pat Combs, was pitching for the other team. Coach gets up there against Pat and laces a single off the wall at Reverchon (sp.?)Park. Only got a single because he could not run. Greatness!!!
quote:


FD,
You speaking about Reverchon makes me think about HB Kernodle....sure miss that guy. There will never be a more passionate groundskeeper. I'll bet HB had something to say about the old guy taking it to the kid. Smile
wraggArmwraggArm500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Old School79:

WA, your not out of line.


I know I'm not. Don't worry, it wasn't a genuine apology.

My words to Funneldrill were sincere, however. I think he's on the right track to win consistently over several years at the 5A Varsity level.

I'm not an anxious parent in the whole "Freshman" concern, and I don't particularly care if every year a bunch more Fresh parents get frustrated like the bazillions before them. But I am fascinated with how some coaches always seem to be winners, where others always seem to magically miss out on those talented JV/V's year after year. My question was really more about winning programs, and whether 5A coaches out there get caught up in focusing on the obvious priority of the Varisty team and squander away their competetive advantage.

I knew a really great winning HS football coach in the eighties who used to say that Junior year was WAY too late to try to start preparing a championship team. He used to say that most coaches didn't "get" that the real coaching work was done with the underclassmen. He went on to be a winning coach at the college level by appplying the same philosophy. I'm guessing that the principals are much the same for HS baseball.

Human behavior being what it is, I'm also guessing that most big-program baseball coaches think they do a pretty good job with their Freshmen and aren't real open to the idea of talking about it. (FD being a clear exception)

I guess the proof will always be in the pudding.
Last edited by wraggArm
F FormerObserver1,000+ posts
quote:
Just because a kid has the skill to play on varsity does not guaranty that he is mentally ready or emotionally mature enough to thrive in a varsity environment. In the long run it may be better for most to play sub varsity as freshman even if they have varsity talent. Some are ready and those few are special players, but coach and parents should think hard about that. A kid goes from being in a middle school environment a few months ago to spending almost all of his time with 17 year old juniors and 18 year old seniors. It can be a bit of a culture shock for the player and parents. All I am saying is make sure the kid can handle that aspect of playing on varsity.



An excellent observation..............
TO thinking out loud10+ posts
quote:
Also,
Does the freshman get the starting job if he is only slightly better than a senior? How much of an upgrade does the freshman have to be to bench a senior or junior?


I can't speak for any other teams, but on our team, it doesn't seem to matter if a freshman/sophmore/junior are better than a senior they will not start start over a senior. These underclass man are really not even given to many chances to practice in the postions that they play. Several of the seniors on this team do certainly deserve and have proved that they deserve their starting spots. But, some starters are questionable, and wonder, why not give some kids a chance? Even if it just at practices, what do you have to loose? These kids have talent and need that practice to be better for next year. But, then I think, well just wait until the season starts and real games are played. Like wragg arm wrote, "the proof is in the pudding". I truly wish our team the best and want them to have a great season, and do have faith in the coach. I am not a coach and may not know what I am talking about, just thinking out loud!
F funneldrill1,000+ posts
thinking,

Your underclassmen need to be patient ( I know that is easier said than done). No one has scrimmaged or played a game yet. When we start playing against other folks, "the proof will be in the pudding." Coaches that don't play their "9 best" will be out of a job before too long. Just let me get them on my schedule before they do (hahaha).

If your coach has his priorities straight, he'll play "his best 9," not his "9 best."

Got a call from a former player yesteday. He is a senior and his pitching coach posted a list of the top 4 pitchers that "we can win with." This kid was left off the list and numbers 2-4 on the list have never pitching in a game at his level. I told him, don't say anything, keep working hard. Eventually those guys will have to pitch against someone else and you know what will happen. Then you will get your chance and TAKE ADVANTAGE. The last thing you want to do is get cross ways with the coaching staff. Then you have an "attitude problem" and that is an out for them for not having to let you pitch.

The cream always rises to the top, the proof is in the pudding, what ever cliche you want to use.
M MAB100+ posts
FD, you are correct, coaches will play their best 9. Everyone need remember that coaches didn't take their position wanting to lose. They all are trying to win and if their not, then I too want them on my schedule. FD - when you find those guys ho aren't, let me know maybe we can have a DH with them. For the underclassmen patience and hard work will get you noticed and perform when you get the chance. RESULTS matter!! Good Luck to all of you this Spring.(Unless you play against us)
M Maverick0714500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by funneldrill:
That is quote from my high school coach, Tommy Cantrell. He had some classics and boy did he know hitting. He was Baltimore's top 3B prospect in the late 50's. He was stuck behind a pretty good one, you might of heard of him, Brooks Robinson! He led the Florida State League in hitting one year, I think he hit some where in the .350 neighborhood.

Best story about him, he was about 50 years old, his son was playing in the DABA and their team only had 8. So coach gets out there in RF and hits in the 9 hole. Baylor's ace, Pat Combs, was pitching for the other team. Coach gets up there against Pat and laces a single off the wall at Reverchon (sp.?)Park. Only got a single because he could not run. Greatness!!!


I hated taking BP off Coach Cantrell. He'd throw that sinker and you'd beat it into the ground and he would laugh at you... I think he threw a good spitter too... sometime I had tobacco juice on the barrel after bp... lol
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