From strike-out to contact pitcher

If all he throws are fastballs, he will get hit. I don't care how hard he throws. He needs to focus on location and throwing strikes. Let them put the ball in play and let his defense make plays behind him.

First your son should keep his mouth shut on the two errors because he has no right to say anything to them unless he is perfect and never makes mistakes. Do you think his fielders enjoy watching free passes?

Secondly I'm not a fan of the phrase "pitching to contact" because (to me) it implies not throwing hard and leaving too many pitches over the plate. That leads to bad things. What the coaches are getting at I believe is they want him to be under control when throwing. Sometimes when you have a kid who throws hard and gets a lot of K's tends to try and get more on the ball. This leads to a break down in mechanics and invaribly leads to loss of location. Now the walk total goes up. He will continue to strike out weaker hitters because they don't have the plate discipline to lay off pitches out of the zone. Good hitters will take those pitches and either walk or jump all over pitches that find the zone.

Throwing hard is a great thing but it's not the only thing. Your son needs to dial it down a little and maintain his mechanics so he can paint the corner instead of trying to blow it by everyone. I have no idea what your son throws but for example if he is at max effort throwing 85 he could pull back a little and still hit 81 - 82 without losing mechanics and location.

To paraphrase Crash Davis (Kevin Costner) from Bull Durham when talking to Nuke Laloosh (Tim Robbins)

"Strikeouts are Communist and boring"

I think what the coaches are looking for is strikes. My son is pitching varsity for the first time this year and coach has told him and me before he threw a pitch that he needs to trust his defense. He wants him to throw strikes and get outs. He has pitched 10 innings and has probably 10 strikeouts, but only 2 walks so far. What coaches just cannot stand is too many walks. Free bases kill.

I think sometimes when a pitcher tries too hard for the K, they either over throw or try to get too fine with hitting the corners and wind up walking guys. Coach would rather see a hard hit ball for an out than a walk any day.

Just have your son keep the ball over the plate, but low and work on an off speed pitch and he will be fine.

Not everyone can be a pitch to contact pitcher. You have to have great skill to be that kind of pitcher. Your fastball must have a lot of movements, downward movement is the best. I am talking about the "fastball" movements, not about any breaking pitches,CB/SL, etc. This kind of pitcher won't be afraid to throw their fastball right down the Pipe, they want you to make a contact, to induce DP grounders or Pop-fly balls.

If your son throws straight line fastball. You can't "pitch to contact", those balls will be killed if you miss in the middle. A lot of pitchers who throw over 90 mph won't make to the MLB because
their fastball lack of movements.

LHPMom2012:

My son, a 2009 LHP, is making the transition to a "contact" pitcher. Up to and through JV and JR Legion ball he got by with many strikeouts, plus a lot of walks, because he could get his fastball by a lot of those hitters. Now facing varsity hitters, he can't blow the ball past the hitters and has to hit his spots and change speeds. His out pitch is a curve but he hits the corners with his fastball and works away with his curve and a cut fastball. He uses the whole plate (inside and outside corners) but must keep the ball down to be sucessful.

Yesterday, in a scrimmage against a very good hitting team, he had a bunch of balls hit hard, when get got the ball up, but worked around it and ended up only giving up two unearned runs. He worked out of a 2nd and 3rd no out jam, giving uo no runs by getting a pop up and a DP.

In my mind it is the difference between pitching and throwing. As he has made this transition, his walks are way down, his strikeouts are down a bit, but the number of strikes is up and his number of pitches is way down.

Send me a PM if you want more details.

PITCH TO CONTACT..... PITCH TO CONTACT..... PITCH TO CONTACT

This can not be repeated and stressed enough, particularly for a pitcher just starting HS.

Sorry guys but I strongly disagree with the coaches above. There is no better inning than a three pitch ground ball inning - it is perfection on the mound. It does more damage to the other teams mental make up than anything else you can do as a pitcher....they are not even in their seats and...bang.bang.bang...we have to get back on the field again, what just happend?

If you don't have it, learn it. You can pitch with just fastballs and the sooner you learn the better chances on moving up. Work on finger grip, types of grips, and getting the ball to move. Learn a sinking FB, try gripping a two seam FB with your fingers off the seams and different positions on the ball. Talk to your catcher and let him know what you are working on and have him give you feedback.

Fr and Soph's don't have the velocity to get a ball past a hitter so there is not better time to work on it than now.

LHPMom2012:

One more thing, 24 has very good movement, which helps counter lower velocity. BOF's point about the 3 pitch ground ball inning is very true. Nothing better than quick innings so the wear and tear on the arm is less and the team gets right back to hit.

coach2709,

strikeouts are fascist. besides that, they're boring.

god, i hate it when people get the words wrong!

quote:

Originally posted by Catch43:
coach2709,

strikeouts are fascist. besides that, they're boring.

god, i hate it when people get the words wrong!

My bad catch43 - as I typed it I was sure it was wrong but for the life of me I couldn't remember the actual quote.

Thanks

Pitch to contact is almost like an art. I remember son pitched a 7 inn shut out last year, with only 5ks, and almost no ball past the infield. There are couple of walks, but soon they got doubled out with another groud ball to the infield. Total picth for the game is 62, average 9 pitch/Inn. We had 4 double play made by the infielders. That was fun.

Coach, thanks for your point about location. About what percentage of the time would you expect a 15-year-old to be able to hit his spots exactly? And by "exactly," I mean, for example, the low fastball that is just an inch or two out of the strike-zone... the inside fastball that gets the strike 5 out of 6 times... but the 6th time results in a hit batter.

He does have a lot of movement on his fastball.

LHPMom

My two cents- It is all about rythm and low pitch counts in innings. The less pitches the better. The problems with throwing a lot of balls is that not only are you less effective as a pitcher, you have 7 guys behind you that are doing nothing to help the team. The worst thing a pitcher can do is unintentionally walk a guy, especially to start off the game and then second to walk the lead off guy. A case in point-

Two years ago on our travel team, My son was only allowing 2 runs per game (7 inning games) in the games he pitched in. Over half of those runs were allowed on base as either the lead off batter in a game or the lead off batter in an inning due to a walk. I have since watched other teams in and gone back and looked in the books and have noticed that other teams also suffer from this problem.

Now I am more concerned about getting the lead off batter to either put the ball in play or strike him out. This only happens if the pitcher can throw strikes. This means that the fastball must be established "in the strike zone", especially on the lead off batter in an inning. According to "The Mental Game of Baseball" (by H. A. Dorfman and Karl Kuehl) Batters in the major leagues hit less than .190 when swinging on the first pitch. Take advantage of this statistic as the book says and throw the first pitch for a strike. This means throw the fastball right down the pipe! A pitcher who can throw his first pitch for a strike is 50% more likely to either strike the batter out or cause the ball to be put into play. Who wouldn't want to improve their so/bb percentage by as much as 50%? Then throw first pitch strikes and do not relent. Throw more pitches in the "strike zone" and realize that 7 guys behind you want to see some action!

Last year my son strted with this fresh approach and going after lead off batters in innings and lowered his era, increased his strike outs, and allowed him to get better rest inbetween innings with less pitch counts also giving him the opportunity to pitch deeper into games without relief.

quote:

First your son should keep his mouth shut on the two errors because he has no right to say anything to them unless he is perfect and never makes mistakes. Do you think his fielders enjoy watching free passes?

Agreed. Wild pitching oftens causes fielders to lose their focus.

quote:

My son is pitching varsity for the first time this year and coach has told him and me before he threw a pitch that he needs to trust his defense.

I'm curious why a parent would be involved in this conversation.

quote:

Originally posted by coach2709:

quote:

Originally posted by Catch43:
coach2709,

strikeouts are fascist. besides that, they're boring.

god, i hate it when people get the words wrong!

My bad catch43 - as I typed it I was sure it was wrong but for the life of me I couldn't remember the actual quote.

Thanks

"Relax, alright? Don't try to strike everybody out. Strikeouts are boring, and besides that they're fascist. Throw some ground balls. They're more democratic."

quote:

According to "The Mental Game of Baseball" (by H. A. Dorfman and Karl Kuehl) Batters in the major leagues hit less than .190 when swinging on the first pitch. Take advantage of this statistic as the book says and throw the first pitch for a strike. This means throw the fastball right down the pipe!

If every pitcher piped the first pitch the statistic would change. The point is hitters can be overagressive and swing at the first strike rather than the first good pitch to hit.

quote:

quote:
My son is pitching varsity for the first time this year and coach has told him and me before he threw a pitch that he needs to trust his defense.

I'm curious why a parent would be involved in this conversation.

RJM, coach and I talk at times. We were talking about my son starting for varsity as a freshman and it was one of the things we talked about.

I don't know if the implication is that a coach never does or shouldn't talk to parents, but he and I get along and he will approach me from time to time. We also talk about hunting, since it is a passion we both share.

quote:

If every pitcher piped the first pitch the statistic would change. The point is hitters can be overagressive and swing at the first strike rather than the first good pitch to hit.

True, but we are talking about pre-pro ball here. Most prep kids will not get good wood on the first pitch, even if it is right down the middle.

quote:

Originally posted by BOF:
PITCH TO CONTACT..... PITCH TO CONTACT..... PITCH TO CONTACT

This can not be repeated and stressed enough, particularly for a pitcher just starting HS.

BOF and those others who stress pitch to contact are right on.

My son has always been a contact fastball pitcher. That earned him almost a full scholarship and second round draft pick. This is something that every pitcher should strive for. You don't have to throw hard either, but you do have to know when to turn up thr heat. A pitcher throwing his hardest pitch after pitch will not last long in a game. The pitcher trying to strike everyone out will also not last long unless he has mastered his craft. One hit, one play is better than throwing multiple pitches to each player to strike him out, most HS pitchers do not have full command to locate each pitch where he wants. This doesn't mean every FB over the plate, but as BOF has posted, learning how to make your FB do different things. Movemenmt is more important than velocity for young pitchers. Son can even throw FB after FB, he's not afraid of getting hit and knows his job is to keep the team in the game, and that's done by making them work. Don't worry about those errors, they don't turn into earned runs. And HS is the time that you need to learn this. ALL pitches have to be thrown for strikes, some throw more FB, some throw more CU, CB, sliders, but pitching is all about throwing off the hitters timing when you need to, not at every pitch. This doesn't mean you can throw whatever you want whenever you want, but pitching to contact makes more sense to me.

My husband asked son at an early age, what type of pitcher would you most want to play behind, the one who strikes everyone out or the one who allows the ball to be in play and keeps you alert and on your toes. Guess which one he said......

Why would a player complain to ANYONE about errors. That's the game, learn to deal with it, pitchers mess up plenty.

Gingerbreadman


I respectfully disagree---good HS hitters will cream the first pitch if it is down the pipe and the COACH ALLOWS THEM TO BE SWINGING !!!

LHPMom -- You have hit on one of my favorite topics. I am with most of the other voices here ... Pitch to Contact / Throw Strikes / Hit Spots / Use Movement. This is what pitching is about.

Ever since Southpaw Son started pitching, we have always preached the same thing ...

The most important pitch in baseball is Strike One. An 0-1 count lowers most hitter's batting averages by 100 points.

Throw strikes ... the more strikes a Pitcher is throwing, the more uncomfortable life becomes for hitters. Personally, I hate "waste" pitches. I am a great believer in staying ever on the attack; never give the hitter a breather.

Once you get the hitters (and the Umpire) used to seeing strikes, you can expand the size of the strike zone a ball at a time. See Ted Williams Science of Hitting to see what that does to batting averages.

Hit your targets, and keep moving targets and changing speeds. I know you have heard of "Real Velocity", "perceived Velocity", and "Effective Velocity" before. Learning to pitch to Effective Velocity is a very powerful thing.

A perfect inning is 3 pitches, and 3 easy ground balls back to the Pitcher (Greg Maddux).

I want to see a Pitcher hit his target -- dead center -- 80%+ of the time; and I want him to take pride in his ability to do that (with all of his pitches).

On average, a good inning is approx 15 Pitches; average 12 to 15 and you are doing well; average 9 to 12, and you are going exceptional. Be exceptional.

Our sons are the same age. My guy has taken these thoughts to heart, and has really worked hard on these things. He expects to hit his target dead center 80%+ of the time (and does). He expects to get off the mound in 10 pitches or less (and does this a lot) -- if it takes 15, he is not happy. He expects to be 80%+ Strike One, and to have a 3:1 strike-to-ball ratio. It is amazing how closely he has stayed to these targets for the past 2 year. So can a 15 yr old HS Pitcher do this ... yes.

SP Son is now playing in one of the top HS programs in our area, and we love what his Pitching Coach says. He evaluates pichers on Command (ability to hit his spot), Stuff (movement) then Velocity ... in that order. They have been one of the most dominat pitching programs in the region since the Coach arrived.

Parting thought -- It is amazing what these kids can learn to do, once they set their sites on a goal. I know our guys have been trained up in similar fashion. Encourage your guy to set some high standards, and to go for them.

Team put in three "contact pitchers" tonight and got clobbered 16-1. The phrase "pitch to contact" may not come up again...

LHPMom

quote:

Originally posted by LHPMom2012:
Team put in three "contact pitchers" tonight and got clobbered 16-1. The phrase "pitch to contact" may not come up again...

LHPMom

Pitching to contact is to pitch to "your contact" not piping pitches.

With all due respects you are extremely uninformed

quote:

I respectfully disagree---good HS hitters will cream the first pitch if it is down the pipe and the COACH ALLOWS THEM TO BE SWINGING !!!

Then disagree, but do so realizing that at the MLB level, statistically speaking, they are all good batters facing good pitchers and batters swinging at first pitches are hitting less than .190 I would just about bet that they are not just swinging away on bad pitches out of the zone.

The advice is only good if of coarse you are not serving up "meatballs" that get clobbered. I have seen many a sub-par HS pitcher that get tattooed on first pitches because they just didn't have adequate velocity and/or movement to throw a quality first strike pitch.

My own books and stats also show that first pitch strikes almost always end up leading to either a put out or a strike out on that batter. I will take the odds of throwing to the "lead off" hitter at minimum, a good hard strike down the pipe versus throwing one that "might" be in the strike zone and end up actually not being a strike and then battling from behind the entire at bat.

The stats don't lie.

Pitching to contact doesn't imply you should throw BP. Rather than nibble, look to take small bites of the plate, keep it down, and get ground balls. The pitcher is responsible for the tempo of the game. How many errors are commited after being lulled to sleep by walks ?

quote:

With all due respects you are extremely uninformed

That's why I ask questions, to learn from all you geniuses.

"With all due respect," this message board is about as helpful as any other message board on the internet; i.e., not very. I logged on in November and believe I've asked about three questions. For my questions, and almost everyone else's, I've noticed a pattern in the answers:

One or two posters will actually attempt to answer the question;

One or two will disagree with these answers;

About a third will post in order to boast about something great their son did that's tangentially related to the topic at hand;

About a quarter will just say something nasty about the questioner, other parents, or coaches, etc.,

One or two will urge the poster's son to give up baseball all together.

I enjoy reading the threads and will continue to do so, while hoping that any other questions I have will be asked by other parents. You want a target, find a catcher's mitt, not a person.

LHPMom

quote:

He expects to hit his target dead center 80%+ of the time (and does).

That is amazing. Not the expecting part, but the "does" part. Most Major League pitchers throw strikes somewhere around 60-65% of their pitches. That is because too many strikes can lead to problems. Those 60-65% strikes would include the mistake strikes which do not hit the target. Those tend to add up mto some bad numbers for the pitcher.

I think there are some great points mentioned here. Getting ahead in the count is very important. While it is easy to understand, I've never cared for the phrase "pitch to contact". The goal is to miss bats, at least miss the sweet spot on bats. Maybe "pitch to poor contact" makes more sense and that is what the real goal is. Most of these types are successful ground ball pitchers.

The best pitchers use a combination of several ingredients in order to be successful. Control, command, velocity, movement, deception, intelligence, etc. Any one of those things by itself will not be good enough. The higher the level of play the less hitters chase pitches. The more important quality strikes and pitches become.

LHPMom -- Try not to get frustreated. You asked a very good question, and like most questions, it will attract a variety of answers.

I would summarize what I have read here as: nobody has good enough velocity that they can continue to blow hitters away as they grow in the game. With each step up in the game a player goes, the weaker hitters & pitchers drop away.

A collegiate Coach we spoke with once put it a great way. He said that he tells all of his players coming in (paraphrasing): you know that guy you couldn't hit in HS, well he and everyone else like him is here. You know that guy you could not get out in HS, well, he and everyone else like him are here too.

HS is when the Throwers and the Pitchers get sorted out. The Throwers can compete at the JV level, and even the Varsity level in lesser leagues; but for the most part, if a Player wants to compete at a high level in a tough HS Varsity league, and have an opportunity to move on to the next level, he has to learn to be a Pitcher -- Command, Stuff (movement) & Velocity.

There are some hard throwing Pitchers who strike lots of guys out. As the hitters continue to get better and better, it gets harder to get by on "K's" alone. I have seen young Pitchers fold when kids started hitting them (even if just for ground ball outs). Their sense of self as a Pitcher was tied completely to the K.

What I would encourage you to tell your son, and I think others here have as well, is to have him think in terms of how does he produce 3 outs, on the least number of pitches possible. This is Pitching, and is of the greatest value to the team.

If that happens to be K's today, then that is what it is. But on the day that he goes 7 innings on 1 or 2 striekouts, and 80 pitches, will he realize he pitched a tremendous game?

Totally aside ... any chance your son plays in the WCAC, and that I might find myself watching him pitch? Best wishes.

Southpaw_dad, you have a PM.

LHPMom

LHPMom,

I appreciate your frankness about the board - too many hijacked threads and general incivility. But, if you are like me, you keep reading to find a gem in the rough. I suspect you (and your son) already know the answer to your question, but it helps to have a sounding board. I've found that if you give it some cooling-off time and re-read some of the posts, most people are trying to help.

In response to your original question, just have your son keep working on locating his fastball better. If he develops good mechanics and has a live arm, there should be no need to slow down to "aim" the ball. If those walks turn into even more strikeouts, I don't think he will get the "pitch to contact" lecture again. Once he has gained command of the fastball, then he can learn to change speeds and add movement to have batters get themselves out. Despite the errors, he will also need to learn to trust his defense, but at the same time know that there are situations to pitch for the K. Hope this helps.

Pitch to Contact - My son is called a "crafty pitcher" in our area. Not that many strikeouts but plenty of 3 up, 3 down innings with ground balls and pop ups to the infield

quote:

The goal is to miss bats, at least miss the sweet spot on bats.

I'm glad you added the second part of the quote Jerry.
I think different types of pitchers have different objectives. If you are a 94 plus guy, the goal is to miss the bat. But I think if you don't have the heat, your goal is to keep a hitter off balance and try to induce ground balls and weak fly outs or popups. An occasional strikeout doesn't hurt. With son being a lefty and lacking the dominating speed, he has to change speeds and hit his spots constantly. He is a strike thrower, and a first pitch strike thrower, but there is a BIG difference in a good strike and bad strike. A strike that paints the black on the inside corner when the hitter is looking outside is a good strike. A strike down the middle at 85 is a bad strike. A changeup on the outside corner when hitter is looking fastball inside is a good strike. If you don't possess a overpowering fastball, you have to learn to pitch or you won't get many innings. Son has had to do it and at the collegiate level they hit the ball hard if you miss your spot and don't have a dominating fastball. Keep them off balance, throw strikes, and you can have some success, regardless of velocity.

quote:

Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:

quote:

If every pitcher piped the first pitch the statistic would change. The point is hitters can be overagressive and swing at the first strike rather than the first good pitch to hit.

True, but we are talking about pre-pro ball here. Most prep kids will not get good wood on the first pitch, even if it is right down the middle.

At the high school level/16U to 18U travel level, I disagree.

Unless I missed it no one mentioned the most important part of pitching is keeping hitters off balance. Once off balance, contact usually doesn't go too far. Rearing back and firing fastball after fastball doesn't get hitters off balance. Good hitters can't wait for their turn at the plate.

I've always loved Reggie Jackson's line, "I could pull a 747 if you tell me what speed it's coming."

Spot on RJM! Particularly when you keep changing the spot, the speed, and the movement. There's nothing quite like watching a bunch of guys shaking their heads on the way back to the dugout.

quote:

At the high school level/16U to 18U travel level, I disagree.

If a HS pitcher is just serving up 75 mph fastballs with no movement then yes he is going to get crushed even if he is close to the strike zone.

That was not the intent of my post. I was stating the importance of delivering a first pitch strike. Most good HS pitchers have the ability to throw first pitch strikes in the zone. Specifically my post was in regards to game lead off batters and lead off hitters in innings. It also applies to every batter. If a "good fastball" pitcher can locate his pitch, then statistically speaking, he should continue to attack batters with his fastball for the first pitch until they prove that they can hit him. Then they should change speeds and varry pitches for the first pitch after that but still dominate batters by attacking with first pitch strikes.

It has been my experience that good HS pitchers (80-85 mph fastballs with movement) can use this pitch as their main pitch, especially to lead off batters and for first strikes. I am not suggesting throwing 75 fastaballs belt high continuously.

RJM,
I did mention something to that aspect, but I think that most here realize that pitchers have to upset timing and throw first pitch strikes to stay ahead.
PG brings good point up about pitching to contact, no way should a pitcher pitch to contact and it ends up flying out of that park. Also, fly outs are very dangerous, best is to make it a ground out.

I thought we all understood that.

Ok how is this, pitch to contact but always make sure they are infield bloopers.

Yes, I guess it was overlooked RJM. Right above yours RJ I did state keeping hitters off balance was a key to success.

That's ok, what do I know.

quote:

If a HS pitcher is just serving up 75 mph fastballs with no movement then yes he is going to get crushed even if he is close to the strike zone.

Where are these varsity high schoool pitchers throwing 75? I've never seen one. I've never seen one in 16U or 18U travel either?

"I was stating the importance of delivering a first pitch strike."

Here's your post I was responding to when I said most high school and high school age travel players will crush the ball. ....

"Most prep kids will not get good wood on the first pitch, even if it is right down the middle."

You couldn't be more wrong.

First off, I think a lot of you need to go to Jerry Ford's post on perfect Games website and read the statistics of pitcher and fastballs. Jerry nice to see the numbers. Thanks for doing that.

RJm, have to disagree. I see a ton of 16U and 18U travel teams with all sorts of kid throwing 75 or below. I gurantee Mr. Ford does as well. I do not know how successful they are. Most top level high schools will not. But there are a lot more high school's that are below average that run 74 out there on occasion. I would say the majority of pitcher's are in the 78-83 range.

As a coach that calls all pitches during games. We do look ot get ahead and stay ahead. Jerry Ford was again dead on in his post early. I am not looking for contact or no contact. I am looking to fool the hitter. Whether that be location or speed. I want to fool him. If he makes contact great. If he does not make contact great. Both are positives.

A coach will commonly use the phrase pitch to contact to get you in the zone more. I use it. It is a different way of saying throw strikes. We generally say it to pitchers who struggle to trust their teamates and put us on our heels more times than not. They have the weight of the world on their shoulders. If they do not pick up a K they failed (in their mind). LHP your son has to have success pitching in the strike zone. He needs a lot of reminders from teammates that they have his back, and for a little while he needs them to make plays. He will begin to develop more confidence pitching in the strike zone. Once your learn to "trust your stuff" (Another phrase used way to much by me) your confidence will soar and you will in turn become more effective. it takes a lot of time though. Some guys figure it out early, some it takes years.

If a kid can keep the ball in the strike zone enough to not be going deep in the count all the time, there's nothing wrong with K's. The best defense in high school is half the outs being K's. The best pitchers will get ten, eleven a game.

But, before someone posts it, a pitcher can be very successful with half as many K's as long as they mix it up and stay away from the middle of the plate.

Pastime you are right on!: Velocities I have recorded so far this season (HS Varsity in games - Stalker) I typically note velocities at the top of the score book for the coaches when they are looking over the game afterward. These were against some strong SoCal teams - two of them would give any team in the country a tough game.

BTW the best HS defense is 21 Groundball outs! Power pitchers will get their K's. From my count we have seen 3 in 28 pitchers.

Average = 79.6
Mean = 78

88-90 - tough seeing this guy your first at bat of the season….
80-81
83-84
76-77
78
76-78
76-80
74-75
78-79
75-76
72-74
78-79
77-78
80-81
78
83-84
81
74-75
77-78
72-74 This guy is nasty lots of K's at 73!
80-81
79-81
88-90
78-79
88-90
78-79
79-81

I am a rookie compared to many of these guys giving advice (my son turns 15 March 28 and is a freshman). One point I have noticed with many kids is early on the kids who are extreme flame-throwers if not coached properly don't learn how to pitch because at an early age they could throw it past everyone and never developed. My son was fortunate to have a wonderful pitching coach that has developed him as an all-round pitcher (biggest thing we work on now is off-speed). He has better then avg. speed (80mph+), very good at location, good mvt. His K pitch when he was younger and still is his 2-seam fastball hitters used to miss it a lot and he would get a lot of K's, now with better hitters it has developed into a dribbler back to the mound--when he's on he will get 4-5 of these a game along with 4-5 K's if he pitches 5-6 innings tha's 1/2 the outs +. I being a novice was worried he was not getting as many K's but the more experinced dad's would say its better because he throws less pitches. Now I understand more what they mean by contact pitcher--it gets harder to get K's agianst quality hitters but avoid solid contact with late movement and locaction. My son picked up on this long before I did--thank God.

Again, it's pretty simple, keep 'em off balance and throw strikes, you will be successful more often than not!

But then again, what do I know

been around baseball for awhile. so the question i'm going to ask, sounds just as foolish to me.

how do you become a SO pitcher? maybe you are a contact pitcher....and nobody makes contact? if their not hitting you, you can't makem.

was that a yogism.

quote:

the best HS defense is 21 Groundball outs!

The point about the K's being the best defense is a percentage of ground balls in high school will result in errors on the catch or throw. Take a way half the grounders and chances are you're eliminating at least one error.

Want to become a strike out king? Then become a good magician on the mound! Develop the absolute nasty strike pitch- the one every good hitting team is afraid of.

Years ago I overheard a pitcher talking about pitching being a form of magic- being able to decieve batters so bad that they just can't believe how you threw that dang ball by them without them hitting it- must be some kind of magic!

I took note of that and ever since I have tried to instill in my pitchers the fine art of deception. Little things like not showing the ball until its coming at you and speeding up and slowing down the delivery. Even changing facial expressions works well sometimes. Throwing from an intentional certain mechanic on a breaking ball and then follow it up by using the same mechanic delivery to sneak a fastball in. Use the plane of balls to deceive- throw fastablls and chang-ups from the same exact plane as it leaves your hand. Make it appear like your fastball decides on its own where it wants to go and how fast it will get there. Throwing change-ups at different speeds makes the ball appear to hop some times.

I like watching Asain pitchers because they are more magicians than pitchers, They use a lot of motions that disrupt a batters timing. They also use a wide variety of offspeed pitches to throw off the timing. On top of that they each have their own unique style which in turn makes them better.

quote:

Originally posted by RJM: Take a way half the grounders and chances are you're eliminating at least one error.

Most HS infields at the Varsity level are .95% fielders(some better). That is 1 error per game in the infield. Even if they are poor at .90 that is 2. No big deal boot a ball, give it back to the pitcher and we go 6-4-3 and walk off. The pitcher will throw 20% (or more) fewer pitches, the game is going to move along faster, your teammates are involved. I'll take my GB's to your K's any day of the week.

I'd like to believe that. Maybe my kid is snakebit, but in 14 innings of work, our shortstop has committed 5 errors resulting in 7 unearned runs. What is weird, I don't think he has an error in the other 35 innings played. We have played 7 games, so it does average out to less than one error per game, but they were definetely costly.

I still think you pitch to get outs and if you are lucky or good enough to get strike outs, then all is good.

quote:

Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
Want to become a strike out king? Then become a good magician on the mound! Develop the absolute nasty strike pitch- the one every good hitting team is afraid of.

Years ago I overheard a pitcher talking about pitching being a form of magic- being able to decieve batters so bad that they just can't believe how you threw that dang ball by them without them hitting it- must be some kind of magic!

I took note of that and ever since I have tried to instill in my pitchers the fine art of deception. Little things like not showing the ball until its coming at you and speeding up and slowing down the delivery. Even changing facial expressions works well sometimes. Throwing from an intentional certain mechanic on a breaking ball and then follow it up by using the same mechanic delivery to sneak a fastball in. Use the plane of balls to deceive- throw fastablls and chang-ups from the same exact plane as it leaves your hand. Make it appear like your fastball decides on its own where it wants to go and how fast it will get there. Throwing change-ups at different speeds makes the ball appear to hop some times.

I like watching Asain pitchers because they are more magicians than pitchers, They use a lot of motions that disrupt a batters timing. They also use a wide variety of offspeed pitches to throw off the timing. On top of that they each have their own unique style which in turn makes them better.

GM,
I think that most of us are in agreement that pitching is about deception. As your player gets older hitters become smarter, you can't rely on deception all of the time. JMO.

I think that we all can agree that the object is to get on the mound and get off as quickly as you can throwing less pitches to achieve that.

quote:

Originally posted by bballman:
I'd like to believe that. Maybe my kid is snakebit, but in 14 innings of work, our shortstop has committed 5 errors resulting in 7 unearned runs.

bbman: note "Varsity"....Freshmen it all depends. Early season also has a lot of variability.

Agree with the out theory as in take them any way you can get um.

Have him do the Linemen/Quarterback thing and buy him dinner/lunch or something.

I try not to get too involved in these type topics. It's just that once in awhile the messages sent out there don't make any sense and could confuse a young kid trying to learn something. So I can't help it... Sorry!

quote:

I took note of that and ever since I have tried to instill in my pitchers the fine art of deception. Little things like not showing the ball until its coming at you and speeding up and slowing down the delivery. Even changing facial expressions works well sometimes. Throwing from an intentional certain mechanic on a breaking ball and then follow it up by using the same mechanic delivery to sneak a fastball in. Use the plane of balls to deceive- throw fastablls and chang-ups from the same exact plane as it leaves your hand. Make it appear like your fastball decides on its own where it wants to go and how fast it will get there.

Gingerbread, I've got to be honest here. The ability to be consisitent with your mechanics is probably the #1 most important thing in becoming an outstanding pitcher. Maybe the number one problem we see in young pitchers is their inability to repeat their delivery. I'm only saying this so that those who don't know any better will have a different viewpoint to consider. You are making this even more complicating than it already is. Young pitchers need to work on commanding their fastball. It is and always has been the most important pitch in baseball for almost every pitcher who has ever played. Until that is accomplished, nothing else matters. Facial expressions are simply not important. Good hitters don't care about facial expressions.

quote:

Then disagree, but do so realizing that at the MLB level, statistically speaking, they are all good batters facing good pitchers and batters swinging at first pitches are hitting less than .190 I would just about bet that they are not just swinging away on bad pitches out of the zone.

You also posted the above gem, earlier.

Where are you getting your information? The lowest batting average for any specific count is 0-2. Next worse is 1-2. Can you guess why that is? It's because the hitter can swing and miss without making an out on any count except with 2 strikes. Swing and miss or get a called strike with a 2 strike count and you are an out! Anyway, an analysis of nearly 100 of the top hitters in baseball suggests that the best [hitters] bat about 70 points higher and slug 130 points higher on 0-0. (I took that from a study). Truth is, hitters do not like 2 strikes counts. So pitchers should love to have 2 strike counts as long as they are ahead in the count. In that case the best outcome is one pitch=Strike out or hitter chases and hits a weak groundball or pop up. In fact, the secret to pitching is being ahead in the count and statistics back that up. That is why strike one is often referred to as the most important pitch. Pitching to contact is misunderstood by many. It certainly doesn't mean... Let them hit it... It doesn't mean... Pitch to hard contact... It means pitch to poor contact.

Not as troublesome, but I get confused by many of the numbers that get thrown around...
This was posted by BOF and it confuses me, though I would agree with much of what BOF has posted earlier..

quote:

Most HS infields at the Varsity level are .95% fielders(some better). That is 1 error per game in the infield. Even if they are poor at .90 that is 2. No big deal boot a ball, give it back to the pitcher and we go 6-4-3 and walk off. The pitcher will throw 20% (or more) fewer pitches, the game is going to move along faster, your teammates are involved. I'll take my GB's to your K's any day of the week.

BOF,

If I can have a 4 pitch K vs. a 4 pitch ground ball... I'll take the K everytime! One thing for sure, the K is much more likely to be an out than the groundball. The only problem with strike outs pitchers is they have to throw more pitches to get outs. With 2 strikes on a hitter, I will always take the K.

Guess I really don't know what the fielding percentage is for high school infielders, but I do know that hall-of-famer, Cal Ripken, had this fielding % his last 5 or 6 years... .953%, .952%, .948%, .950%, .947% and .947%

Are you sure that most high school infielders are .950% (some better)? (Just like Ripken was) Also, what would you want with the winning run on 3B and no outs? Want the strike out or the ground ball? The biggest advantage in pitching to contact is you throw less pitches. Everyone understands that. Please understand that many of the greatest pitchers ever also had the most strikeouts ever. Pitching to contact is a term used usually to describe sinker ball pitchers, these days. Ground ball pitchers are in demand especially in DP situations. Most ground balls are outs, a much bigger percentage than fly balls, but people need to remember that the rest include more than just errors. Lots of those ground balls become hits. I imagine we have all seen many ground ball "hits". Haven't we?

Most pitchers have three pitches that have a purpose.

1 - Control Pitch
2 - Out Pitch
3 - Strike Out Pitch

Most often, by far, the Control Pitch is the fastball

The Out Pitch can be anything, but it is the pitch where the phrase "pitch to contact" is used. For many this is the sinker.

The Strike Out Pitch is often the breaking ball, but some rely on a good moving, high velocity fastball to a certain location.

Hitters quickly figure out how those pitches line up. They want to know what you throw in control situations. What you throw early in the count for outs. What you throw when you want or need a strikeout. Not having a knock out pitch (K pitch) limits a pitcher somewhat. That doesn't mean you have to be a strike out pitcher.

Here is something I wrote for our website. I'm far from a good writer, but whether anyone agrees or not, they might at least give some thought to certain things.
THE FASTBALL & VELOCITY

quote:

Originally posted by bballman:
I'd like to believe that. Maybe my kid is snakebit, but in 14 innings of work, our shortstop has committed 5 errors resulting in 7 unearned runs. What is weird, I don't think he has an error in the other 35 innings played. We have played 7 games, so it does average out to less than one error per game, but they were definetely costly.

I still think you pitch to get outs and if you are lucky or good enough to get strike outs, then all is good.

I used to think the same thing. Player makes no errors in a game, then when son comes in there's an error in every inning. Part of it was because he put more balls into play, part of it had to do with the attitude. The more relaxed the pitcher is, the looser the team plays.

BOF, it is varsity. Not trying to knock the SS. He is a very good player going to play D1 ball. Not at a powerhouse, but a very respectable school.

TPM, I can go with the balls in play theory. Probably not the attitude issue. Son is very level headed and doesn't get mad or upset about any of it.

May have to do with early in the game. First game was in the 1st inning, next game in the 2nd after a 1-2-3 first, third game in the 1st inning again. He played solid after the initial errors.

I'm probably wrong about snakebit, just seems that way sometimes. We'll work thru it. I say we because it is probably harder for me to deal with than him.

I told my son once that the kids making errors behind him were giving him an opportunity to demonstrate that he can keep his head, stay calm, and pitch his way through it. Of course he told me that I don't know anything, but perhaps this line of thinking will work with your son.

It is amusingly ironic when the coach yells, "Just get a ground ball!", next pitch produces a ground ball hit at just the right speed... and it goes through the second-baseman's legs.

LHPMom

bballman,
I think that PG has saved the day with his article and post about understanding the phrase "pitch to contact". One certainly doesn't want a contact with 2 outs, 0-2 count with a tied game with the winning run on 3B. That calls for the strikeout. I assumed that perhaps that was understood. My bad. What should be noted is that sikerball pitchers (as is my son) pitches to contact, resulting in weak contact. I guess we shouldn't assume that all pitchers are the same either.
Thanks PG.
I am impressed with the part about how important it is for younger players to develop the FB over any other pitch and learning repeatable mechanics. I am not so sure I totally agree with everything about the radar gun, but he definetly proves it has it's purpose.

PG good stuff and points well made. I admit I will overemphasize sometimes to get a point across. Actually we all forget that W’s are more important than L’s and it takes a team to achieve this.

I will do some digging on fielding %'s for HS players and get back to you. All I know is that my son's Freshmen's team last year fielded in total at a 89% rate. The SS was a .92%. (of course this depends if the SS parent is the scorekeeper….maybe another HSBBW theorem . I am pretty sure most Varsity infielders are well north of 90% and in the 95% range. I do remember reading about the top SS somewhere being in the 98% range. I will go confirm the actual numbers. We have started out a little rocky defensively on the Varsity team this year and we are at 89% rate right now. The 2nd basemen is at 0.95 right now, SS is kicking the ball around at 0.88.

To LHPmom’s point the apposing pitcher pitched to contact tonight and resulted in a walk off HR…

Have a great week-end!

quote:

Gingerbread, I've got to be honest here. The ability to be consisitent with your mechanics is probably the #1 most important thing in becoming an outstanding pitcher. Maybe the number one problem we see in young pitchers is their inability to repeat their delivery. I'm only saying this so that those who don't know any better will have a different viewpoint to consider. You are making this even more complicating than it already is. Young pitchers need to work on commanding their fastball. It is and always has been the most important pitch in baseball for almost every pitcher who has ever played. Until that is accomplished, nothing else matters. Facial expressions are simply not important. Good hitters don't care about facial expressions.

I agree that being consistant with mechanics is important, but I certainly do not believe that it should stop there. American pitchers have become too robotic- they all look the same. I guess I have always had a problem with the "cookie cutter" approach to training pitchers. Why not allow pitchers to create their own style like the Japanese pitchers do? Deception is part of the game. I believe that there is nothing wrong with changing an arm slot or a leg kick or speeding up or slowing the windup sequence. If a pitcher can just realize that once they start to come forward that it all comes back into one (their mechanics come back together and is consistant from that point), then it isn't a problem at all and instead becomes another tool the pitcher can use.

quote:

You also posted the above gem, earlier.

Where are you getting your information? The lowest batting average for any specific count is 0-2. Next worse is 1-2. Can you guess why that is? It's because the hitter can swing and miss without making an out on any count except with 2 strikes. Swing and miss or get a called strike with a 2 strike count and you are an out! Anyway, an analysis of nearly 100 of the top hitters in baseball suggests that the best [hitters] bat about 70 points higher and slug 130 points higher on 0-0. (I took that from a study). Truth is, hitters do not like 2 strikes counts. So pitchers should love to have 2 strike counts as long as they are ahead in the count. In that case the best outcome is one pitch=Strike out or hitter chases and hits a weak groundball or pop up. In fact, the secret to pitching is being ahead in the count and statistics back that up. That is why strike one is often referred to as the most important pitch

I got the information from a reputable book called "The Mental Game of Baseball". I agree fully that the best count is 0-2 or 1-2. My point was that statistically speaking, "mlb hitters" who swing on the first pitch only hit .190. This means that they are just not getting "good wood" on balls they put into play when they swing and hit the first pitch. My other point was the stats about the "lead-off" hitter of both a game and an inning. From my own research on the prep level, a walked lead-off batter has the greatests chance of scoring in a game because the odds are best in his favor. He is already 1/4th the way to home base and no outs have been recorded and he hasn't had to swing his bat with less than a 50% chance of getting on anyway.

Once I noticed this, I changed my philosophy and have proven, at least to myself, that lead off hitters do not usually get on base on the first pitch. This is why I believe it is so important to attack batters, especially lead off batters, right off with a strike. Almost every lead off batter will either watch the first pitch or foul it off or hit it weakly for an out. This certainly doesn't mean that the pitcher must throw a perfect meatball down the gut, it just means that his concentration should be to throw a strike in the zone. Let the batter swing if he is going to, relizing that the odds are against him getting on base if he swings on the first offering.

A prominant D1 coach told me that the first thing he looks at when scouting an opponents pitcher is how many Ks per inning he averages. He says that if the pitcher averages AT LEAST 1 K per inning, then he probably has a pretty good pitch that you are not likely to hit. My son was a very good high school pitcher who relied on spotting a moving fastball and the same type changeup. He only averaged about .80 Ks per inning. If he had developed a good breaking ball as an out pitch to raise his strikeout count, he would have been an exceptional high school pitcher.

quote:

I agree that being consistant with mechanics is important, but I certainly do not believe that it should stop there. American pitchers have become too robotic- they all look the same. I guess I have always had a problem with the "cookie cutter" approach to training pitchers. Why not allow pitchers to create their own style like the Japanese pitchers do? Deception is part of the game. I believe that there is nothing wrong with changing an arm slot or a leg kick or speeding up or slowing the windup sequence.

Gingerbread,

Being able to repeat your delivery doesn't have anything to do with any "cookie cutter" approach. In fact, I also hate the cookie cutter approach.

Anyone who watches lots of high level baseball would recognize that the best pitchers have different styles. In fact, in any given professional or college game a hitter might see three or four pitchers in a game, all with much different styles, arm angles, velocities, pitches, deception, etc. The one thing the very best have in common is their ability to more consistently repeat their delivery and release.

Billy Connors (Yankees) is considered one of the best pitching guys ever. He would be as far from cookie cutter as it gets. He is the master of making minor adjustments.

Also, the biggest problem with throwing from many different slots is it's very difficult to master one slot, let alone several. Upsetting the hitters timing and balance is always the goal, but it has to be done without the pitcher upsetting his own timing. And keeping the arm healthy has to be considered when experimenting.

I'm old enough to realize that there are many different ways to be successful. On the other hand, I've seen many who want to reinvent the wheel only to see negative results. Nothing wrong with trying to out smart everyone, so long as you also listen to what everyone has to say. You have mentioned (I think) that you've learned a lot of this from a guy who knows a lot about pitching. My advice would be to listen to lots of people before figuring everything out. Just like me, you will be shocked by how much you didn't know. \

Finally, I think you mentioned that your son is still very young and it sounds like he is talented. Things are going to change (better or worse) as he climbs the ladder. Things that work now, may not work later. What you yourself believe is likely to change. Keeping things fairly simple is just fine for young kids. There are many fathers and mothers of pitchers who have much experience who post here. I'm pretty sure that every single one of those parents will tell you... They know much more now than they knew when their son was 13-15 years old. That would include myself. That will include you some day... That's something I can promise you!

quote:

Being able to repeat your delivery doesn't have anything to do with any "cookie cutter" approach. In fact, I also hate the cookie cutter approach.

Amen and Amen! Sometimes in practice I get tired of the cookie cutter approach to things, especially with the pitching. I encourage my son to experiment a lot on his own from different slots, different angles from the rubber, more back/less back etc. He realizes that he has to be consistant in games and luckily he doesn't experiment in games, eh eh.

I hope that as my son continues his climb that he will get better.

Just as a note, I was watching the WBC tonight in S. Koreas win over Venezuala and their closing pitcher used at least 3 different arm slots to retire the remaining batters in the game- that is what I like to see- kids with enough talent and guts to step outside the box and in essence prove they are as good or better than the best the world has to offer by doing things in a more unconventional method by todays standards. I miss the old days I guess when pitchers would have real personality out there on the mound.

Gingerbreadman,
I am not sure that you really understand what PG is trying to tell you.
Repeatable delivery, means that every pitch should be coming from the same slot, every pitch. It's different grips that make the ball do differnt things.
That is not to say that a young pitcher can't experiement with finding the right slot that he is comfortable with (or his natural slot). Only because young hitters don't know what to look for.
Changing slots for different pitches tips the hitter as to what pitch is coming. Players can get away with it through HS, because most hitters have no clue what to look for.
My son was able to get away with it also as a young pitcher, when he got to college it took about a year, tons of hard work to get every pitch thrown from the same slot. Coach said lots of bad habits needed lots of work.

quote:

Gingerbreadman,
I am not sure that you really understand what PG is trying to tell you.
Repeatable delivery, means that every pitch should be coming from the same slot, every pitch. It's different grips that make the ball do differnt things.
That is not to say that a young pitcher can't experiement with finding the right slot that he is comfortable with (or his natural slot). Only because young hitters don't know what to look for.
Changing slots for different pitches tips the hitter as to what pitch is coming. Players can get away with it through HS, because most hitters have no clue what to look for.
My son was able to get away with it also as a young pitcher, when he got to college it took about a year, tons of hard work to get every pitch thrown from the same slot. Coach said lots of bad habits needed lots of work

I understand fully what PG is telling me. I do realize the American addiction of pitching from the "same slot"- the cookie cutter approach. Nothing wrong with that, most coaches in this country are trained to teach that and call all else "problems". I am fine with that mentality. I honestly believe that if a pitcher has the ability in a game to drop down and throw a fastball sidearm occasionally and have it behave differently than his other slot, then he has more tools to draw upon if he needs it. On occasion I see MLB pitchers using different slots to give batters different looks- keep them off balance. I see nothing wrong with that.

If a pitcher can master all of his pitches from not one but two slots, will this not make him a better pitcher? I believe it will. A case in point-

My son has learned how to pitch both froma semi-submarine slot and a low 3/4 slot. His normal pitches come fromt he 3/4 slot as his velocity is a little higher. In a game we were playing last year he was really struggling to get a batter out- he kept fouling it off- all of his pitches. I gave a sign out to my son to drop down with fastball and so he did catching the batter off guard and him swinging and missing it entirely for the third out. It may be somewaht unconventinal by todays standards but it was effective and it worked. I don't call that a bad habit, I call that having more tools in the toolbox.

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
Also, the biggest problem with throwing from many different slots is it's very difficult to master one slot, let alone several. Upsetting the hitters timing and balance is always the goal, but it has to be done without the pitcher upsetting his own timing. And keeping the arm healthy has to be considered when experimenting.

I don't know how much bettr PG can say it, especially the last sentence. If I was a parent of a young pitcher reading this, I'd advice to listen to the above advice before anything else..

And, IMO, what you describe your son doing is not having more tools in the toolbox.

gingerbread,

I understand your thought process. I'm just not sure you completely understand mine.

Of course, there is an advantage if a pitcher can throw several pitches from several slots. The biggest problem becomes mastering any of those pitches to the point of reaching something close to potential. What's the old saying... Jack of all trades... Master of None!

If someone can actually do that, then more power to him. Throwing with repeatable mechanics doesn't have anything to do with a "cookie cutter" approach. Cookie Cutter means everyone is taught to throw exactly alike. We already know that, that just doesn't work. There's lots of proof in that regard. If you have one pitcher throwing 3/4, another higher 3/4, another low 3/4, another over the top, and yet another throwing side arm... how is that cookie cutter. Yet on most major league teams that is exactly what you are likely to see. What you don't very often see is one pitcher throwing from several different arm angles. It's too hard to master one!

If someone can actually do it, it certainly would be a great advantage, but my best guess is that you will probably be changing your mind about things as time goes on. We all do!

Best of luck to your son.

GBM:

I think some of your ideas are interesting but I don't think you have been around pitching and coaches who have pitched at the highest levels and your son is a long long way - even from HS Varsity ball. Coaches at these levels know what it takes to succeed at these levels, which are significantly different than Rec, HS, College and baseball in Asia.

I belive as your son moves up in level you will get a better understanding what PG is pointing out.

I find this discussion interesting, click on link below to read to find out why.

http://www.perfectgame.org/pla...profile.aspx?ID=9795

Fortunetly, it worked very well for him in HS, but first year in college, he had more bad outings at first than good ones. At that level it's tough to get away with against your better hitters. I suppose that he could have remained that way, I do beleive and understand now why he was not considered a higher draft choice out of HS.

Thank goodness he had a good college pitching coach who knew how to make the adjustments carefully (there is an article somewhere with the college p coach explaining that it was better to make those adjustments sooner than later (at the pro level), but I can't find it.

Son has had a few minor bumps in the road, very well could be possible that he was not doing what he should have all along.

We purposely did not take him to a pitching coach to make those changes, but rather leave it up to someone who knew what he was really doing, and could do it right.

No doubt your son will have success now, but do understand that eventually it's not going to work.

Not sure if many japanese pitchers change their slot, (could their size have something to do with it), but in reality how effective is it after you face the same batter over and over and over, year after year after year? And if those japanese pitchers were so good, why does MLB not have more than they do?

JMO.

TPM,

I love reading old reports and grades. Also like to look back at our old rankings lists. It's fun to see what was correct and what wasn't. Best part is that we don't seem to have as many people calling us an idiot or saying kids pay to be ranked, when all the results are right there to look at. All those so called "stupid" lists that supposedly don't mean a thing, that nobody cares about or bothers to look at.

Guess it's always the next list that is so wrong, because the past lists have turned out to be extremely accurate in most cases. It's just easier to complain about the list before it becomes the proof.

Thanks for posting that.

PG,
I thought that you would get a kick out of that!
Back in those days, "lists" were done though baseball america.

Your PG description was 100% accurate!

I just wanted to show GM, that what he thinks that he has figured out is not uncommon, but also not very reliable as the landscape changes.

TPM,

The thing that not many know is that all those Baseball America lists back then were done by PG for Allan Simpson (then the editor of BA). Truth is, the lists still originate in the same place except now days they can get most of the information via a subscription to pgcrosschecker.

It all starts with the underclass lists that no one else can do. It will once again be interesting to see how many of those underclassmen will appear on the various 2010 lists when those lists start to come out. Lists are easy if someone else is doing the work and identifying the top players. Heck, the list makers don't even have to see the players and for the most part they don't until after those players have been identified.

This is not bragging about expertise, it's about how much work people do. BA has always had "one" person covering high school scouting. We have hundreds of people doing the same thing, and about 40 who do that full time. The big difference is whether you gather information from others or if you get that information first hand by seeing the players. Seeing players is the only way we do it. And, just a little bragging here, it is what we are the very best at and most proud of.

People still complain and sometimes we are wrong. There is no perfection in scouting. These comments will bring some naysayers, but there are no naysayers among the biggest decision makers. Those people actually know the truth!

Many people think that what we do best is run events... Those people are wrong. What we do best, hands down, is identify talented players and let the baseball world know about them! And we do that 365 days a year.

Please forgive me, I will now shut up.

PG,
Yup, I knew that what I meant to say was, "back then when you were doing the "ranking lists" for BA".

We followed those lists just like everyone else, I think in HS, son would rank from 25-80 in his HS class.

His junior year he sort of "disappeared" in the top 100, one of the reasons I think because of what I posted above, but before the draft Allan (not sure if he was PGC or BA then or not in 2007) ranked him 81, pretty close to his draft slot. I like Allan and have been following him for years and years. He knows his stuff, that is for sure.

Jerry, you do know for parents that lists are accurate when your player is ranked high, not so accurate when he is not.

I guess we can both shut up now 'cause we both might get in trouble for getting off topic.

Allan was with PGC at that time.

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
Allan was with PGC at that time.

quote:

Not sure if many japanese pitchers change their slot, (could their size have something to do with it), but in reality how effective is it after you face the same batter over and over and over, year after year after year? And if those japanese pitchers were so good, why does MLB not have more than they do?

I agree that a pitcher needs to master a delivery, dont get me wrong. I am just saying that if they can do things to deceive the batter without compromising their pitching then by all means they should.

Not to start World War 3 but....Didn't Team Japan beat the USA in the WBC tonight fair and square? Didn't Team South Korea also beat Team Venezuala last night? Who does that leave for bragging rights about where the best baseball players in the world are? Seems like Asia comes to mind eh! Sure, I have the heard that "we didn't really send our best players to the WBC and Japan did". The problem with that is like saying that MLB players really aren't the best players in the world!

I have been saying for years that the Koreans and Japanese have better quality baseball than Americans as of late because they have stepped outside the box and did things their own way. And on the world stage they have once again proven who the best player sin the world are.

I have hit reply 4 times already and this will be my first actual repsonse.

GB,

Buddy I wish you good luck. Japan and Korea are good baseball programs. But this is their world series. This is the big stage for them. They take it a lot more serious than us. The US does not need the bragging rights. Until a korean or Japanese person is in the talks for Hall of Fame, best player in baseball, or several All-Star selections I think you have to be in aggreement that the baseball playing field is still slanted towards North America. Otherwie, why do some of these players come over and fail. Why does Japan accept US players that could not make it in the US. ( They have success over there)

Get rid of the Lob pitch. It will not work at the upper levels. It has success against inferior hitters.

Be open minder to what people are telling you. They are not trying to tell you it is "my way or the highway" every good pitching coach will tell you they have to open minded or they will fail. I am just afraid that by you "stepping outside the box" so much you have forgotten sometimes you have to step back in the box to have success. You have almost blocked or not accepted wha a lot of Really successful people are trying to tell you. Ireally hope I am wrong. But if I am not good Luck. i hope your son has success and I hope you change add a new compenent to pitching. The art of how to master throwing from 4 different arm slots and keeping your kid healthy.

I had a conversation with a long term MLB reliever the other day and he related this story to me. When he was still playing, the team brought in Satchel Page(sp?) to talk to and meet the guys. One thing he brought up was, if your job as a pitcher is to mess up a batters timing, then why the heck are you throwing the same way everytime? Made me think a little bit.

I never said I was going to teach son 4 different slots to master. I said that him having an alternative slot to throw from occasionally increases his tools he has to draw upon. His ability to slow up or speed up his initial delivery (leg lift) also messes up the batters timing.

The WBC and the Olympics are the only way of jduging who is better as a "team". Lets face the truth- for the most part, the best "all-stars" in the majors can't compete on the world stage with either the Koreans or the Japanese. Personally I think that our failure to win it all on the world stage should be telling us that the days of American baseball dominance is over- at least for the short term. Hopefully some of the old tendencies in training young kids are dying out and being replaced by better philosophies. I sure know that I have had to really battle to keep my kid learning properly how to do things. When the other kids go to the batting cages to practice hitting I go out on my front lawn and to the park and shell him to death with live arm. When other kids are taking their kids to reputable pitching coaches i am out on the front lawn getting nailed in the shins over and over with pitches. I am not saying that not going to a good pitching coach is a good thing, I am just saying that it may be over-rated and in some cases damaging to learning.

I have always had the philosophy like that of the talent in Latin America- go out and play, play, play and let the talent develop naturally on its own. I always get asked who I take my son to for pitching lessons. I tell them I take him into my front yard and throw the heck out of that piece of leather- that is his pitching lesson. Truthfully, I just can't afford all the bells and whistles of payed training. I go collect cans to raise money for travel ball. We run all over town looking to save 5 bucks on under-armor.

Maybe my son is just born with a special natural talent or maybe it's because he doesn't fit the typical mold of all the "do's and don'ts" prescribed in those endless little league baseball training videos and camps that local coaches hold.

We may have to re-examine why American MLB players can't compete and win against other nations in the world. I think we may find that our system of training good quality players from little league age on needs some adjustments. Our philosophy on basic fundamental baseball needs a much needed update.

Our philosophy on basic fundamental baseball needs a much needed update.



we invented the fundamentals of baseball. the world seems to copy that.

maybe you mean training?

quote:

Originally posted by Doughnutman:
I had a conversation with a long term MLB reliever the other day and he related this story to me. When he was still playing, the team brought in Satchel Page(sp?) to talk to and meet the guys. One thing he brought up was, if your job as a pitcher is to mess up a batters timing, then why the heck are you throwing the same way everytime? Made me think a little bit.

You mess up their timing with a variety of pitches (also using different grips) not with changes in arm slots. Deception is hiding the ball well before it leaves the hand. 13 year olds can drop their slots because other 13 year olds have no clue what to look for.

Struck out 7 this afternoon in 3 innings, one walk. A couple of good hits against him. And no one yelling, "Just let them hit it!"

LHPMom

quote:

Originally posted by LHPMom2012:
Struck out 7 this afternoon in 3 innings, one walk. A couple of good hits against him. And no one yelling, "Just let them hit it!"

LHPMom

How many pitches were thrown in the 3 innings?

Good question TPM and what I thought of first when I read the post.

Gingerbreadman no offense but I still think American baseball is better than Asian baseball. Maybe it's simple American arrogance but the problem with the World Baseball Classic is it's pretty much a one and done format. Baseball is a game where anybody at anytime can be beaten. It's been proven time and time again over the history of baseball. I would love to see how the Asian teams would do against the American team in a 7 game series.

I'm not trashing Asian baseball because it is of very high quality. That shows by the number of players coming to America to play. I'm just saying that if you take 10 of the best American players and compare them to the 10 best Asian players there might be 4 - 5 Asians who could compete equally with the Americans. That will probably change over the next couple of decades and they will catch up.

C2709,
I only asked because I can't see a coach telling the pitcher to "let them hit you", unless he was going to deep into the count.
Everyone knows it's better to not let a hiter take a base, but it is also important for young pitchers to work efficiently (less pitches thrown).

GB

I know this has nothing to do with pitch to contact but I can not let this go.
Out of the top 10 strikeout pitchers from the US 1 was at the World baseball classic. Out of the top 10 ERA starters 1 was on the US team. The pitcher Korea beat was 8-16 in the MLB last year. The guy the Japan team beat was not a top 10 arm last year. So I have to strongly disagree. The Olympics, seriously we sent our minor league guys. I am not taking away from Korea or Japan, both have great players. The kid on the mound today for Japan is dominant. Dice K has been very good in MLB.

That's pretty much my point as well about pitching efficiently. Seven K's in 3 innings is pretty good but did he go to a full count on every hitter and walk several or did he throw 4 - 5 pitches per batter for a total in the neighborhood of 15 total?

The first is not good and not effective and against a good team he will not last long but if it's the second then he not only dominated but he will still be more effective at the end of the game.

The loss was because of 4 unearned runs due to fielding errors and had nothing to do with pitching.

quote:

How many pitches were thrown in the 3 innings?

67. I think he faced about 15 batters.


LHPMom

Pastime...you are probably right in what you say.

But...I feel it is embarrassing that the US does not win this tournament. I think it should be taken a little more seriously.

Baseball is "supposed" to be Americas game. I would think you should try to win it...at least once...to prove that you are the best. Isn't it that way when the basketball team plays in the Olympics?

I don't know...maybe I'm off base...but I just don't like when the USA loses. Then to make excuses as to why is even worse.

quote:

Originally posted by LHPMom2012:

quote:

How many pitches were thrown in the 3 innings?

67. I think he faced about 15 batters.


LHPMom

Oh, My! 67 pitches in 3 Inn, that's almost a 7 Inn pitch count for any good contact pitcher. TPM you asked a good question.

As for team USA, RobV, you are right, we need to prove at least once that we can compete. Did we ever win anything since Baseball became a Olympic event in the 80s?....

quote:

Originally posted by LHPMom2012:

quote:

How many pitches were thrown in the 3 innings?

67. I think he faced about 15 batters.
LHPMom

My point exactly. A good HS pitcher needs to be below 15 pitches/inning to get through 7 innings. If you want to keep your pitch count to 95 or less he will need to be at 13 or lower. To achieve this you must be efficient and get contact early(pitchers). K's will come but 4-7 per game are typical for a good HS pitcher.

I am not arguing that what the US sent was good. it was a small portion of good players but not the best. The US needs to figure out how to make it work. Bottom line the owners care more about the season than this. So until they buy in. The US will continue to struggle. I do not believe the US lost because of pitching i am just throwing out the US would be much more dominant with it's better arms available.

LHP2012,

How hard does your son throw???

quote:

67. I think he faced about 15 batters

Way too many pitches for 3 innings. There is no way he could ever start and finish a game. He's averaging 22 pitches per inning so for a 7 inning game he would throw 154 total.

Also, another factor is that he saw 15 batters in 3 innings which means that will average to the three guys he gets out per inning plus two runners on / scored each inning.

I'm willing to bet he throws pretty hard and that's half the battle. He needs to learn how to hit his spots which will increase the number of outs by groundball and flyball.

My son only throws in the high 70s. Sometimes he'll hit 80 but he doesn't stay there. I've been told that he throws very hard for his age and handedness, but considering the number of posters here who have lefty sons in 8th or 9th grade that are 6'4" and throwing 85, I guess not. He is also only 6'1".

The coach has him on a 75 pitch limit. He also had him throwing mostly fastballs until they started hitting him. Then he switched to off-speed and got the last out (another K.)

His dad asked him afterward about his speed, and he said he only threw at about 85% after the first few batters. He does have a lot of movement on his fast ball.

He's on JV.

LHPMom

I think Coach has a good handle on the situation. So as a high school coach in charge of pitchers. A lefty throwing 78-81 will have success and will get many strikeouts on JV. My goal and approach with him would be to get him in the strike zone more. Because once he gets to Varsity the runners on base will catch up with him, and I imagine he falls behind in the count a lot. Which is going to force him to throw a lot more hittable pitches. I had lefty very similar in every category that you described. he is now a junior. he pitched varsity last year and had little success. He was not use to not being able to blow people away. it was a huge adjustment for him. He is now pitching with a lot more confidence and success. The key for him was playing for a much better travel team and facing Varsity hitters. You will have to increase the level of competition for him. He has to get used to pitching and not just throwing. I have found it is tough to teach kids without failure as to how to pitch.

As a coach for high school, I am looking for kids under 85 to be more contact pitchers and guys over 85 to be more my strikeout guys. This is a very general rule. I have seen plenty of guys be the opposite.

From personal expierence, I was a lefty pitcher in high school. I was 83-85 with a very good breaking ball. I did not want the ball put in play. I walked a lot and struck a lot out. I threw a lot of pitches or did not go a lot of innings. It took me until college before I figured out how to pitch. I got pounded in the fall trying to strike people out. All of sudden I was not good enough to walk 2 and then strike out 3. Now I would walk to and give up a double in the gap or worse a homerun. That failure was the best thing for me.

I used to think that American baseball was dominant, but anymore I am not so sure. I think a lot of it has to do with watching the olympics and wbc. I watch the plays that some of the other countries consistantly make and i know it just isn't a fluke. Maybe things would be different if the Americans took it a little more serious. But I still guage "American MLB players" as the best in the world. It really shouldn't matter then who we really send to the wbc if they are at least mlb players. After all, they are supposed to be the best in the world. So when I see a team like Korea beat a team of mlb players, I got to take my hat off to them because they prove to me that they are as good as or better than our mlb players- the highest level of player supposedly in the world!

I think a lot of it has to do with selecting the right players, and America may not have picked the best players for the job. But this is the world stage, and the players that were picked played their hearts out! Even if we just say that the American team was just "average" mlb players, then it also shows that the Asians can produce teams that can play above avergae by mlb standards.

I personally believe that right now the Asians have a better training system for teaching and perfecting the school of baseball to their players as a whole system- from youth to the pro level. I personally believe their players are better conditioned for playing baseball. I also believe that their pitching in many respects is step above the Americans. Just my opinion and I will take it as I see it.

I think one of the many problems we may have in this country with throwing/ pitching is that there seems to be a school of thought that there are only so many pitches in an arm or that limiting pitchers to an incredibly low count somehow is better for their arm. Some schools of thought think it is not even good to really throw before the age of 14-15! The kids who do try and learn at the early age are often taken out of their comfort zone as pitchers and taught to throw differently. What I have seen, (and I come from a highly comeptetive baseball area) is just a general lack of "understanding" and interest in knowing how the arm and body works- how it generates and repeats velocity.

Americans (and possibly other countries) are trained to just repeat the most common phrases heard at the baseball field until suddenly it becomes the general rule. Who really does go home and research and find out for themselves? Very few! My son has been told to "throw like he is holding a dixie cup of water and not to spill it"- maybe for a catcher, son on the mound is different! Been told- son needs to come "over the top" that it will "ruin his arm" if he doesn't. Heck, who pitches over the top? Very few professional pitchers even come close to pitching at a releae of 12:00, most are in the 3/4 between 10-11:00. Been told son throws too many "sidearm pitches" and that he will need surgery before he exits high school. So much for Randy Johnson! Been told that sons follow through doesn't come down to the ground enough- that he will hurt himself. Low 3/4 guys and sidearmers don't finish in the ground they finish to the side- the path of the arm motion. Been told that son needs to keep his "elbow higher than his shoulder". Seems to me that those kind of hurlers end up having surgery. All the strong dependable pitchers throw with elbow lower than shoulder. Been told that son's stride is too short. Stride length is almost always proportionate to age of maturity and velocity- it increases as they get stronger and taller. Sons stride has increased in proportion to his velocity and heigth.

And on and on and on....

Too many schools of thought teaching kids how to injure themselves in my opinion in this country.

Of the 67 pitches he threw yesterday, 45 were strikes.

He has pitched against some very good travel teams and over the fall faced some varsity. He tends to be more of a contact pitcher in those situations.

He has a very good slider and change-up.

LHPMom

quote:

Too many schools of thought teaching kids how to injure themselves in my opinion in this country.

Some of the things you speak about do not fall within schools of thought.
Maybe that's how they do it in Idaho, but not where I am from. You will eventually come out of your corner of the world and understand.

In the meantime, not sure how WBC got intertwined, but I go with something I hear today. Just because a player is on a MLB roster does not make him the best in the world. Until we play the best in these type of situations, why even bother. Baseball is a diverse sport, the MVP of WBC plays for an American team. What would have been if those MLB players who were playing for their homeland played for USA? This is why I see this as all messed up. JMO.

LHPmom,
I can understand why your son's coach told him to pitch to contact, 67 in 3 innings is not efficient, no matter what his age, velocity or right handed vs. left handed.

I think that you have been given excellent advice here.

quote:

Some of the things you speak about do not fall within schools of thought.
Maybe that's how they do it in Idaho, but not where I am from. You will eventually come out of your corner of the world and understand.

Its not just Idaho. Those phrases are commonly misunderstood pitching philosophies all over the country.

Before anyone thinks the Asian teams have a better way to train pitchers, last year Dice K was interviewed in the Boston Globe regarding Japanese training and pitch counts. He said Japanese pitchers are blowing out their arms at a very high rate. What the American fans see are some of the survivors who sign with MLB teams.