From strike-out to contact pitcher

If all he throws are fastballs, he will get hit. I don't care how hard he throws. He needs to focus on location and throwing strikes. Let them put the ball in play and let his defense make plays behind him.

First your son should keep his mouth shut on the two errors because he has no right to say anything to them unless he is perfect and never makes mistakes. Do you think his fielders enjoy watching free passes?

Secondly I'm not a fan of the phrase "pitching to contact" because (to me) it implies not throwing hard and leaving too many pitches over the plate. That leads to bad things. What the coaches are getting at I believe is they want him to be under control when throwing. Sometimes when you have a kid who throws hard and gets a lot of K's tends to try and get more on the ball. This leads to a break down in mechanics and invaribly leads to loss of location. Now the walk total goes up. He will continue to strike out weaker hitters because they don't have the plate discipline to lay off pitches out of the zone. Good hitters will take those pitches and either walk or jump all over pitches that find the zone.

Throwing hard is a great thing but it's not the only thing. Your son needs to dial it down a little and maintain his mechanics so he can paint the corner instead of trying to blow it by everyone. I have no idea what your son throws but for example if he is at max effort throwing 85 he could pull back a little and still hit 81 - 82 without losing mechanics and location.

To paraphrase Crash Davis (Kevin Costner) from Bull Durham when talking to Nuke Laloosh (Tim Robbins)

"Strikeouts are Communist and boring"

I think what the coaches are looking for is strikes. My son is pitching varsity for the first time this year and coach has told him and me before he threw a pitch that he needs to trust his defense. He wants him to throw strikes and get outs. He has pitched 10 innings and has probably 10 strikeouts, but only 2 walks so far. What coaches just cannot stand is too many walks. Free bases kill.

I think sometimes when a pitcher tries too hard for the K, they either over throw or try to get too fine with hitting the corners and wind up walking guys. Coach would rather see a hard hit ball for an out than a walk any day.

Just have your son keep the ball over the plate, but low and work on an off speed pitch and he will be fine.

Not everyone can be a pitch to contact pitcher. You have to have great skill to be that kind of pitcher. Your fastball must have a lot of movements, downward movement is the best. I am talking about the "fastball" movements, not about any breaking pitches,CB/SL, etc. This kind of pitcher won't be afraid to throw their fastball right down the Pipe, they want you to make a contact, to induce DP grounders or Pop-fly balls.

If your son throws straight line fastball. You can't "pitch to contact", those balls will be killed if you miss in the middle. A lot of pitchers who throw over 90 mph won't make to the MLB because
their fastball lack of movements.

LHPMom2012:

My son, a 2009 LHP, is making the transition to a "contact" pitcher. Up to and through JV and JR Legion ball he got by with many strikeouts, plus a lot of walks, because he could get his fastball by a lot of those hitters. Now facing varsity hitters, he can't blow the ball past the hitters and has to hit his spots and change speeds. His out pitch is a curve but he hits the corners with his fastball and works away with his curve and a cut fastball. He uses the whole plate (inside and outside corners) but must keep the ball down to be sucessful.

Yesterday, in a scrimmage against a very good hitting team, he had a bunch of balls hit hard, when get got the ball up, but worked around it and ended up only giving up two unearned runs. He worked out of a 2nd and 3rd no out jam, giving uo no runs by getting a pop up and a DP.

In my mind it is the difference between pitching and throwing. As he has made this transition, his walks are way down, his strikeouts are down a bit, but the number of strikes is up and his number of pitches is way down.

Send me a PM if you want more details.

PITCH TO CONTACT..... PITCH TO CONTACT..... PITCH TO CONTACT

This can not be repeated and stressed enough, particularly for a pitcher just starting HS.

Sorry guys but I strongly disagree with the coaches above. There is no better inning than a three pitch ground ball inning - it is perfection on the mound. It does more damage to the other teams mental make up than anything else you can do as a pitcher....they are not even in their seats and...bang.bang.bang...we have to get back on the field again, what just happend?

If you don't have it, learn it. You can pitch with just fastballs and the sooner you learn the better chances on moving up. Work on finger grip, types of grips, and getting the ball to move. Learn a sinking FB, try gripping a two seam FB with your fingers off the seams and different positions on the ball. Talk to your catcher and let him know what you are working on and have him give you feedback.

Fr and Soph's don't have the velocity to get a ball past a hitter so there is not better time to work on it than now.

LHPMom2012:

One more thing, 24 has very good movement, which helps counter lower velocity. BOF's point about the 3 pitch ground ball inning is very true. Nothing better than quick innings so the wear and tear on the arm is less and the team gets right back to hit.

coach2709,

strikeouts are fascist. besides that, they're boring.

god, i hate it when people get the words wrong!

quote:

Originally posted by Catch43:
coach2709,

strikeouts are fascist. besides that, they're boring.

god, i hate it when people get the words wrong!

My bad catch43 - as I typed it I was sure it was wrong but for the life of me I couldn't remember the actual quote.

Thanks

Pitch to contact is almost like an art. I remember son pitched a 7 inn shut out last year, with only 5ks, and almost no ball past the infield. There are couple of walks, but soon they got doubled out with another groud ball to the infield. Total picth for the game is 62, average 9 pitch/Inn. We had 4 double play made by the infielders. That was fun.

Coach, thanks for your point about location. About what percentage of the time would you expect a 15-year-old to be able to hit his spots exactly? And by "exactly," I mean, for example, the low fastball that is just an inch or two out of the strike-zone... the inside fastball that gets the strike 5 out of 6 times... but the 6th time results in a hit batter.

He does have a lot of movement on his fastball.

LHPMom

My two cents- It is all about rythm and low pitch counts in innings. The less pitches the better. The problems with throwing a lot of balls is that not only are you less effective as a pitcher, you have 7 guys behind you that are doing nothing to help the team. The worst thing a pitcher can do is unintentionally walk a guy, especially to start off the game and then second to walk the lead off guy. A case in point-

Two years ago on our travel team, My son was only allowing 2 runs per game (7 inning games) in the games he pitched in. Over half of those runs were allowed on base as either the lead off batter in a game or the lead off batter in an inning due to a walk. I have since watched other teams in and gone back and looked in the books and have noticed that other teams also suffer from this problem.

Now I am more concerned about getting the lead off batter to either put the ball in play or strike him out. This only happens if the pitcher can throw strikes. This means that the fastball must be established "in the strike zone", especially on the lead off batter in an inning. According to "The Mental Game of Baseball" (by H. A. Dorfman and Karl Kuehl) Batters in the major leagues hit less than .190 when swinging on the first pitch. Take advantage of this statistic as the book says and throw the first pitch for a strike. This means throw the fastball right down the pipe! A pitcher who can throw his first pitch for a strike is 50% more likely to either strike the batter out or cause the ball to be put into play. Who wouldn't want to improve their so/bb percentage by as much as 50%? Then throw first pitch strikes and do not relent. Throw more pitches in the "strike zone" and realize that 7 guys behind you want to see some action!

Last year my son strted with this fresh approach and going after lead off batters in innings and lowered his era, increased his strike outs, and allowed him to get better rest inbetween innings with less pitch counts also giving him the opportunity to pitch deeper into games without relief.

quote:

First your son should keep his mouth shut on the two errors because he has no right to say anything to them unless he is perfect and never makes mistakes. Do you think his fielders enjoy watching free passes?

Agreed. Wild pitching oftens causes fielders to lose their focus.

quote:

My son is pitching varsity for the first time this year and coach has told him and me before he threw a pitch that he needs to trust his defense.

I'm curious why a parent would be involved in this conversation.

quote:

Originally posted by coach2709:

quote:

Originally posted by Catch43:
coach2709,

strikeouts are fascist. besides that, they're boring.

god, i hate it when people get the words wrong!

My bad catch43 - as I typed it I was sure it was wrong but for the life of me I couldn't remember the actual quote.

Thanks

"Relax, alright? Don't try to strike everybody out. Strikeouts are boring, and besides that they're fascist. Throw some ground balls. They're more democratic."

quote:

According to "The Mental Game of Baseball" (by H. A. Dorfman and Karl Kuehl) Batters in the major leagues hit less than .190 when swinging on the first pitch. Take advantage of this statistic as the book says and throw the first pitch for a strike. This means throw the fastball right down the pipe!

If every pitcher piped the first pitch the statistic would change. The point is hitters can be overagressive and swing at the first strike rather than the first good pitch to hit.

quote:

quote:
My son is pitching varsity for the first time this year and coach has told him and me before he threw a pitch that he needs to trust his defense.

I'm curious why a parent would be involved in this conversation.

RJM, coach and I talk at times. We were talking about my son starting for varsity as a freshman and it was one of the things we talked about.

I don't know if the implication is that a coach never does or shouldn't talk to parents, but he and I get along and he will approach me from time to time. We also talk about hunting, since it is a passion we both share.

quote:

If every pitcher piped the first pitch the statistic would change. The point is hitters can be overagressive and swing at the first strike rather than the first good pitch to hit.

True, but we are talking about pre-pro ball here. Most prep kids will not get good wood on the first pitch, even if it is right down the middle.

quote:

Originally posted by BOF:
PITCH TO CONTACT..... PITCH TO CONTACT..... PITCH TO CONTACT

This can not be repeated and stressed enough, particularly for a pitcher just starting HS.

BOF and those others who stress pitch to contact are right on.

My son has always been a contact fastball pitcher. That earned him almost a full scholarship and second round draft pick. This is something that every pitcher should strive for. You don't have to throw hard either, but you do have to know when to turn up thr heat. A pitcher throwing his hardest pitch after pitch will not last long in a game. The pitcher trying to strike everyone out will also not last long unless he has mastered his craft. One hit, one play is better than throwing multiple pitches to each player to strike him out, most HS pitchers do not have full command to locate each pitch where he wants. This doesn't mean every FB over the plate, but as BOF has posted, learning how to make your FB do different things. Movemenmt is more important than velocity for young pitchers. Son can even throw FB after FB, he's not afraid of getting hit and knows his job is to keep the team in the game, and that's done by making them work. Don't worry about those errors, they don't turn into earned runs. And HS is the time that you need to learn this. ALL pitches have to be thrown for strikes, some throw more FB, some throw more CU, CB, sliders, but pitching is all about throwing off the hitters timing when you need to, not at every pitch. This doesn't mean you can throw whatever you want whenever you want, but pitching to contact makes more sense to me.

My husband asked son at an early age, what type of pitcher would you most want to play behind, the one who strikes everyone out or the one who allows the ball to be in play and keeps you alert and on your toes. Guess which one he said......

Why would a player complain to ANYONE about errors. That's the game, learn to deal with it, pitchers mess up plenty.

Gingerbreadman


I respectfully disagree---good HS hitters will cream the first pitch if it is down the pipe and the COACH ALLOWS THEM TO BE SWINGING !!!

LHPMom -- You have hit on one of my favorite topics. I am with most of the other voices here ... Pitch to Contact / Throw Strikes / Hit Spots / Use Movement. This is what pitching is about.

Ever since Southpaw Son started pitching, we have always preached the same thing ...

The most important pitch in baseball is Strike One. An 0-1 count lowers most hitter's batting averages by 100 points.

Throw strikes ... the more strikes a Pitcher is throwing, the more uncomfortable life becomes for hitters. Personally, I hate "waste" pitches. I am a great believer in staying ever on the attack; never give the hitter a breather.

Once you get the hitters (and the Umpire) used to seeing strikes, you can expand the size of the strike zone a ball at a time. See Ted Williams Science of Hitting to see what that does to batting averages.

Hit your targets, and keep moving targets and changing speeds. I know you have heard of "Real Velocity", "perceived Velocity", and "Effective Velocity" before. Learning to pitch to Effective Velocity is a very powerful thing.

A perfect inning is 3 pitches, and 3 easy ground balls back to the Pitcher (Greg Maddux).

I want to see a Pitcher hit his target -- dead center -- 80%+ of the time; and I want him to take pride in his ability to do that (with all of his pitches).

On average, a good inning is approx 15 Pitches; average 12 to 15 and you are doing well; average 9 to 12, and you are going exceptional. Be exceptional.

Our sons are the same age. My guy has taken these thoughts to heart, and has really worked hard on these things. He expects to hit his target dead center 80%+ of the time (and does). He expects to get off the mound in 10 pitches or less (and does this a lot) -- if it takes 15, he is not happy. He expects to be 80%+ Strike One, and to have a 3:1 strike-to-ball ratio. It is amazing how closely he has stayed to these targets for the past 2 year. So can a 15 yr old HS Pitcher do this ... yes.

SP Son is now playing in one of the top HS programs in our area, and we love what his Pitching Coach says. He evaluates pichers on Command (ability to hit his spot), Stuff (movement) then Velocity ... in that order. They have been one of the most dominat pitching programs in the region since the Coach arrived.

Parting thought -- It is amazing what these kids can learn to do, once they set their sites on a goal. I know our guys have been trained up in similar fashion. Encourage your guy to set some high standards, and to go for them.

Team put in three "contact pitchers" tonight and got clobbered 16-1. The phrase "pitch to contact" may not come up again...

LHPMom

quote:

Originally posted by LHPMom2012:
Team put in three "contact pitchers" tonight and got clobbered 16-1. The phrase "pitch to contact" may not come up again...

LHPMom

Pitching to contact is to pitch to "your contact" not piping pitches.

With all due respects you are extremely uninformed

quote:

I respectfully disagree---good HS hitters will cream the first pitch if it is down the pipe and the COACH ALLOWS THEM TO BE SWINGING !!!

Then disagree, but do so realizing that at the MLB level, statistically speaking, they are all good batters facing good pitchers and batters swinging at first pitches are hitting less than .190 I would just about bet that they are not just swinging away on bad pitches out of the zone.

The advice is only good if of coarse you are not serving up "meatballs" that get clobbered. I have seen many a sub-par HS pitcher that get tattooed on first pitches because they just didn't have adequate velocity and/or movement to throw a quality first strike pitch.

My own books and stats also show that first pitch strikes almost always end up leading to either a put out or a strike out on that batter. I will take the odds of throwing to the "lead off" hitter at minimum, a good hard strike down the pipe versus throwing one that "might" be in the strike zone and end up actually not being a strike and then battling from behind the entire at bat.

The stats don't lie.

Pitching to contact doesn't imply you should throw BP. Rather than nibble, look to take small bites of the plate, keep it down, and get ground balls. The pitcher is responsible for the tempo of the game. How many errors are commited after being lulled to sleep by walks ?

quote:

With all due respects you are extremely uninformed

That's why I ask questions, to learn from all you geniuses.

"With all due respect," this message board is about as helpful as any other message board on the internet; i.e., not very. I logged on in November and believe I've asked about three questions. For my questions, and almost everyone else's, I've noticed a pattern in the answers:

One or two posters will actually attempt to answer the question;

One or two will disagree with these answers;

About a third will post in order to boast about something great their son did that's tangentially related to the topic at hand;

About a quarter will just say something nasty about the questioner, other parents, or coaches, etc.,

One or two will urge the poster's son to give up baseball all together.

I enjoy reading the threads and will continue to do so, while hoping that any other questions I have will be asked by other parents. You want a target, find a catcher's mitt, not a person.

LHPMom

quote:

He expects to hit his target dead center 80%+ of the time (and does).

That is amazing. Not the expecting part, but the "does" part. Most Major League pitchers throw strikes somewhere around 60-65% of their pitches. That is because too many strikes can lead to problems. Those 60-65% strikes would include the mistake strikes which do not hit the target. Those tend to add up mto some bad numbers for the pitcher.

I think there are some great points mentioned here. Getting ahead in the count is very important. While it is easy to understand, I've never cared for the phrase "pitch to contact". The goal is to miss bats, at least miss the sweet spot on bats. Maybe "pitch to poor contact" makes more sense and that is what the real goal is. Most of these types are successful ground ball pitchers.

The best pitchers use a combination of several ingredients in order to be successful. Control, command, velocity, movement, deception, intelligence, etc. Any one of those things by itself will not be good enough. The higher the level of play the less hitters chase pitches. The more important quality strikes and pitches become.

LHPMom -- Try not to get frustreated. You asked a very good question, and like most questions, it will attract a variety of answers.

I would summarize what I have read here as: nobody has good enough velocity that they can continue to blow hitters away as they grow in the game. With each step up in the game a player goes, the weaker hitters & pitchers drop away.

A collegiate Coach we spoke with once put it a great way. He said that he tells all of his players coming in (paraphrasing): you know that guy you couldn't hit in HS, well he and everyone else like him is here. You know that guy you could not get out in HS, well, he and everyone else like him are here too.

HS is when the Throwers and the Pitchers get sorted out. The Throwers can compete at the JV level, and even the Varsity level in lesser leagues; but for the most part, if a Player wants to compete at a high level in a tough HS Varsity league, and have an opportunity to move on to the next level, he has to learn to be a Pitcher -- Command, Stuff (movement) & Velocity.

There are some hard throwing Pitchers who strike lots of guys out. As the hitters continue to get better and better, it gets harder to get by on "K's" alone. I have seen young Pitchers fold when kids started hitting them (even if just for ground ball outs). Their sense of self as a Pitcher was tied completely to the K.

What I would encourage you to tell your son, and I think others here have as well, is to have him think in terms of how does he produce 3 outs, on the least number of pitches possible. This is Pitching, and is of the greatest value to the team.

If that happens to be K's today, then that is what it is. But on the day that he goes 7 innings on 1 or 2 striekouts, and 80 pitches, will he realize he pitched a tremendous game?

Totally aside ... any chance your son plays in the WCAC, and that I might find myself watching him pitch? Best wishes.

Southpaw_dad, you have a PM.

LHPMom

LHPMom,

I appreciate your frankness about the board - too many hijacked threads and general incivility. But, if you are like me, you keep reading to find a gem in the rough. I suspect you (and your son) already know the answer to your question, but it helps to have a sounding board. I've found that if you give it some cooling-off time and re-read some of the posts, most people are trying to help.

In response to your original question, just have your son keep working on locating his fastball better. If he develops good mechanics and has a live arm, there should be no need to slow down to "aim" the ball. If those walks turn into even more strikeouts, I don't think he will get the "pitch to contact" lecture again. Once he has gained command of the fastball, then he can learn to change speeds and add movement to have batters get themselves out. Despite the errors, he will also need to learn to trust his defense, but at the same time know that there are situations to pitch for the K. Hope this helps.

Pitch to Contact - My son is called a "crafty pitcher" in our area. Not that many strikeouts but plenty of 3 up, 3 down innings with ground balls and pop ups to the infield

quote:

The goal is to miss bats, at least miss the sweet spot on bats.

I'm glad you added the second part of the quote Jerry.
I think different types of pitchers have different objectives. If you are a 94 plus guy, the goal is to miss the bat. But I think if you don't have the heat, your goal is to keep a hitter off balance and try to induce ground balls and weak fly outs or popups. An occasional strikeout doesn't hurt. With son being a lefty and lacking the dominating speed, he has to change speeds and hit his spots constantly. He is a strike thrower, and a first pitch strike thrower, but there is a BIG difference in a good strike and bad strike. A strike that paints the black on the inside corner when the hitter is looking outside is a good strike. A strike down the middle at 85 is a bad strike. A changeup on the outside corner when hitter is looking fastball inside is a good strike. If you don't possess a overpowering fastball, you have to learn to pitch or you won't get many innings. Son has had to do it and at the collegiate level they hit the ball hard if you miss your spot and don't have a dominating fastball. Keep them off balance, throw strikes, and you can have some success, regardless of velocity.

quote:

Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:

quote:

If every pitcher piped the first pitch the statistic would change. The point is hitters can be overagressive and swing at the first strike rather than the first good pitch to hit.

True, but we are talking about pre-pro ball here. Most prep kids will not get good wood on the first pitch, even if it is right down the middle.

At the high school level/16U to 18U travel level, I disagree.

Unless I missed it no one mentioned the most important part of pitching is keeping hitters off balance. Once off balance, contact usually doesn't go too far. Rearing back and firing fastball after fastball doesn't get hitters off balance. Good hitters can't wait for their turn at the plate.

I've always loved Reggie Jackson's line, "I could pull a 747 if you tell me what speed it's coming."

Spot on RJM! Particularly when you keep changing the spot, the speed, and the movement. There's nothing quite like watching a bunch of guys shaking their heads on the way back to the dugout.

quote:

At the high school level/16U to 18U travel level, I disagree.

If a HS pitcher is just serving up 75 mph fastballs with no movement then yes he is going to get crushed even if he is close to the strike zone.

That was not the intent of my post. I was stating the importance of delivering a first pitch strike. Most good HS pitchers have the ability to throw first pitch strikes in the zone. Specifically my post was in regards to game lead off batters and lead off hitters in innings. It also applies to every batter. If a "good fastball" pitcher can locate his pitch, then statistically speaking, he should continue to attack batters with his fastball for the first pitch until they prove that they can hit him. Then they should change speeds and varry pitches for the first pitch after that but still dominate batters by attacking with first pitch strikes.

It has been my experience that good HS pitchers (80-85 mph fastballs with movement) can use this pitch as their main pitch, especially to lead off batters and for first strikes. I am not suggesting throwing 75 fastaballs belt high continuously.

RJM,
I did mention something to that aspect, but I think that most here realize that pitchers have to upset timing and throw first pitch strikes to stay ahead.
PG brings good point up about pitching to contact, no way should a pitcher pitch to contact and it ends up flying out of that park. Also, fly outs are very dangerous, best is to make it a ground out.

I thought we all understood that.

Ok how is this, pitch to contact but always make sure they are infield bloopers.

Yes, I guess it was overlooked RJM. Right above yours RJ I did state keeping hitters off balance was a key to success.

That's ok, what do I know.

quote:

If a HS pitcher is just serving up 75 mph fastballs with no movement then yes he is going to get crushed even if he is close to the strike zone.

Where are these varsity high schoool pitchers throwing 75? I've never seen one. I've never seen one in 16U or 18U travel either?

"I was stating the importance of delivering a first pitch strike."

Here's your post I was responding to when I said most high school and high school age travel players will crush the ball. ....

"Most prep kids will not get good wood on the first pitch, even if it is right down the middle."

You couldn't be more wrong.