Front leg during swing

I am not a hitting expert so you may want to wait for others to respond, but I would say that the front leg is straight at contact because the batter is leaning back.

The leg straightens at contact as a result of rotation (Turning of the hips).

During weight shift momentum, the front leg becomes the post that supports weight transfer/ rotation force...the front leg firming up at contact is a reaction to the force that is created and placed on the front leg as your entire body weight is ideally suspended against your front side at contact. Body weight will then fall to the back side as the hands begin to work around the front leg into finish.

I am not in disagreement with the statements regarding the natural outcome of a rotational swing but would anyone comment on the undeniable fact that a straight front leg at contact in every swing situation regardless of ball location will result in a significant uppercut in the swing for almost every strike thrown between the upper thigh down to the knees. Is that desirable for all hitters or, at least for the vast majority of young hitters out there that are not hitting every pitch with home run power, should some adjustment such as bending the knee during the rotation to and on the front leg be made to compensate for the tendency to uppercut when the front leg stiffens and goes straight?

TW344

My understanding is that you will "post" on your front leg even if your approach to the ball is linear. I also don't fully understand the argument that a swing is either linear or rotational. It appears to me as I watch and listen to the instructer that works with my on that he is primarilly advocating a linear approach, but as the back hip moves forward, you will rotate at the core.

TW34........I would ask you to define and describe upper cut and then do the same for significant upper cut.

I'd then not encourage anyone to bend the front leg to compensate for anything that you mentioned in your thread.

FloridaFan........Rotational is blocking your forward movement and then rotating against the frontleg.
Linear is not blocking your forward momentum and then rotating while the weight is all on the front leg. A LUNGE!

All good hitters have specific movements that are both rotational and linear. You only become a linear hitter if you lung!

If you are rotating on a stiff front leg you can't lunge.

Lunging would imply that your front side has broken down. Your knee would colapse.

I'll agree and I'll also disagree.

You can Lunge both ways. Just because the leg is stiff doesn't mean that the stiff leg has stopped the forward movement. Most elite hitters use a flexed leg to stop the forward movement. They do this for several reasons but one would be to help them be soft to the frontside.

quote:

If you are rotating on a stiff front leg you can't lunge.

MLB hitters don't rotate on a stiff front leg... The leg has flex in it during rotation...the force of that rotation and suspension of weight against the front side will firm the leg at point of contact.

All three of us agree. The front leg will "post", not lock up. Of course there will be some flex, but most of the clips of hitters will show the front leg fairly straight on contact, whether you subscribe to a linear or rotational approach. I understand that linear can also imply that the hitters body is moving toward the ball and have seen some clips of a "broken" front leg (but not that many). I still think that linear and rotational will hit off a braced front side. The stopping of the forward momentum of the body (by the front leg) transfers the momentum of the body into the clubhead. Ideally on contact with a ball.

Nice post NY DAD, I agree somewhat. But I don't see the frontleg being the sole purpose and cause for the hip turn(rotation) I see it as more of a result. Meaning that the rotation starts with the hips and not the firming of the leg. I see the force in the swing coming from the back leg and the back foot as it pushes/ carry's the body forward.

FloridaFan..........I'd say that there is no linear hitter in the big leagues. They all hit against the frontside.

Linear is lunging and not something I would teach to any hitter. All good hitters have rotation and all good hitters also move in some respects laterally. But if your hitting against the frontside then your a rotational hitter if your lunging then your a linear hitter.

So How I see Linear is different than how you see it. Moving forward is a linear movement and something all good hitters do but I would still call that hitter a rotational hitter.

I'd call a hitter with uncontrolled movement a linear hitter and a bad one at that.

quote:

Nice post NY DAD, I agree somewhat. But I don't see the frontleg being the sole purpose and cause for the hip turn(rotation) I see it as more of a result. Meaning that the rotation starts with the hips and not the firming of the leg. I see the force in the swing coming from the back leg and the back foot as it pushes/ carry's the body forward.

Swingbuilder, Thank you...I never mentioned anything about the front leg having any cause of rotation. As stated and you seem to agree it's the "result" of weight being suspended against front side and rotational force. However, I respectfully disagree with your last comment about the force coming from the back leg / back foot. MLB hitters use their middle (hips/pelvis/buttocks) in generating weight shift momentum into rotation...Don't believe they push off their back leg/foot...The back leg/foot pretty much serves as landing gear once weight falls to the back side after contact.

Im sorry NY DAD. I implied that since you said

quote:

the force of that rotation and suspension of weight against the front side will firm the leg at point of contact.

I do believe hitters push/ carry forward. Sure MLB hitters use their middles in generating the momentum but they don't use the middle to create the movement forward.

Rotational hitters stop their hips from sliding forward and initiate hip rotation which allows you to explode with your back hip. Linear hitters allow their hips to continue sliding through as they hit the ball. You will see a loss of power, especially in younger players (HS and LL), not so much in college or pro players because they are already so strong in their upper body.

Regardless of linear or rotational the hitter has to be comfortable with himself in the batters box--hitting can be fairly simple if you don't think too much and let your talent take its natural course

I would agree with that, though most young hitters and players need to be taught "How to let their Talent work Naturally". Its hard for a player to use his natural talent if he doesn't know how to use his engine!

Swingbuilder

The one fault with your process, as I see it, is that you are creating clones because you are teaching them what you want them to do

How about letting them be themselves and let itflow from there---most kids with natural talent know how to make the engine work

To answer the original question, imagine the force at impact when a car speeds into a concrete wall. The car (the back side on a swing) is going forward with such velocity and power that when it hits that concrete barrier (the stiff front leg) you can't help but have an intense explosion. It all has to do with inertia. You are trying to create as much explosion as possible at contact.

If you drove that same car into something that had a lot more give such as netting or fluffy roadside bushes (a bent front leg that absorbs impact in a swing) you will still have some damage, but not nearly as much as running into a concrete wall. And at the point of contact, you are trying to create as much of an explosion as possible.

I know this is a rather morbid way of describing the whole scenario, so I apologize if it offends anyone. Imagine the bat as being anything in that car such as groceries, a briefcase, a person (god forbid). In which situation is that object going to move forward through the point of contact with more force? Remember you are trying to explode through contact, not just push forward with momentum through contact.

The front leg should NOT be stiff at stride landing. It should straighten as a result of rotation. There is no other way!

I MOST definetly want clones. All elite hitters do it the same way. So lets clone them! I could care less about style. But when elite hitters start that bat to contact they all do it the same way.

Most kids don't know how to engage the engine. They turn the hips but that doesn't mean the engine is turning it correctly.

whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa, easy....I'm pretty certain there swingbuilder I never said the leg should be straight at stride landing, only at contact. Were you referring to a previous post?

quote:

The car (the back side on a swing) is going forward with such velocity and power that when it hits that concrete barrier (the stiff front leg) you can't help but have an intense explosion.

Don't see any other way to take your analogy but that way.

concrete barrier is the ground? You then said the stiff front leg happens and THEN the explosion. I took the explosion as the rotation. Maybe your analogy is't a good one?

yep, you know what, you're right. I didn't explain it clearly enough. My fault. I was hoping to make the connection between a flacid front leg being like a bunch of bushes where the damage isn't all that severe, and a stiff front leg being like a concrete barrier where the damage is severe. We agree on what should be done, maybe you can explain it better than me.

Good post TSfan, the analogy works for me. No analogy is going to be perfect. No discription of what a high level swing will be perfect. And there is no way to teach one through reading and writing. Only by doing.
Every hitting instructor can only teach what he knows and what he has seen work for his students. Swingbuilder has a philosophy and technique that works well for his students. TRhit undoubtably has areas that he will look for in a players swing and tweak or correct accordingly.
I am not an instructor but have hired hitting coaches for two of my boys over the last 6 years. Three total instructors, each with a little different methodology. All three played professionally for major organizations in the northeast. My Sons started with talent, but early on were taught the basics. Each instructor has had a different emphisis. My Sons took what the could from each teacher. Their current instructor has a certian way of doing things and they try to emulate what the current instructor wants to see. They will marry some of it and meld it with what they have been previously taught. Fortunately we have never been faced with contadictory information, we have been able to move forward always.
I do enjoy the discussion about hitting. I just wish all posters would be respectful and not turn nasty when somthing is posted that they do not agree with.

swingbuster

I agree to disagree with you--not all MLB hitters do the same thing

I don't like "cloning" hitters because you cannot lose sight of the fact that each kid has a different body and different physical abilities and talents-- A kid 5-8 and 160 lbs cannot do what a kid who is 6-3 and 210 does

MLB hitters are essentially clones...Disregard stance which gives the perception they are unique. However, how they use their middle and what they do from launch to contact is where the similarities are. This is NO coincidence!

quote:

A kid 5-8 and 160 lbs cannot do what a kid who is 6-3 and 210 does

Mechanically, yes he can. The 160 lb kid will probably not have the raw power, but he should have the same basic swing mechanics if he wants to succeed. Good hitters, good athletes, find a way to use whatever ability they have as efficiently as possible. Let's say the only real difference between the 160 lb hitter and the 210 lb hitter is, say, a 5% difference in bat speed or raw power. If they did have the same basic abilities, timing, hand-eye, mechanics, the only difference would be that the ball would come off the bat 5% weaker from the smaller player. But that 160 LBer is force fed the thought that he's smaller, he must swing differently, and that gap is much wider than 5%. This is what's held Fastpitch hittters back for years, being told that they must compensate for their physical weaknesses, while these compensations actually made them weaker and weaker as hitters.

There are two basic swings...The MLB or professional swing, and the thousands of variances of the less efficient amateur swing. MLB hitters are 95% the same from launch of the bat to contact...disregard stance as NY Dad says...Amateurs would have far more success hitting if these mechanics were copied more often.

...Went to a showcase over the weekend, and watched kids run, throw, catch in athletic motions...Kid after kid is athletic. Here comes batting practice, and all of the sudden, that athleticism is gone...because kids are taught mechanics that are not athletically sound; stride early, swing down, start the hands as close as possible to the body to "be short and quick", "straighten" the front leg, rather the allow rotation to straighten it...and watch the kid who runs a 6.9 and throws 85 from the outfield hit foul ball after foul ball...No disrespect, TRhit, but the philosophy of not copying MLB hitters because they're bigger and stronger, trying to find a different set of movements for the smaller body...it's holding kids back...Athletic motion is athletic motion, whether at 200 lbs or 150.

Thanks NY DAD and LEVELPATH. Your right on target!

As for TR HIT.................

Disregard this stance - at your own peril.

We used to call it the "Phi Slamma Shamma" stance baby!

http://images.43things.com/profile/00/03/0c/199922xl.jpg

Ya Gotta Believe!!!

swingbuilder

I do love your ID (EGO)-- I wish I had your ability to clone every batter and make them the same---I like individuals-- a 160 lb hitter is NOW WAY near what a 210 lb hitter is--mechanics can be the same but the results won't be the same--are you telling me a HS hitter is the same kid when he is in his junior year of college after his body matures?

I don't think so


As for swingbuilder---------- duh !!! Clones are for cyberspace !!!!

Its not cloning! All good hitters ALL do the same thing when they move the barrel to the ball. What they do before that is style. I don't care where they start their hands. Over their head below the belt under the chin....WHO CARES!!!! But when that barrel starts to the ball to make contact, THEY ALL DO IT THE SAME! I have no desire to clone style, I do wanta clone a few certain things that they all do when that barrel starts to the ball!

TR HIT, Why is that hard for you to digest. Typically want to change the subject and move the topic from one thing to something else.

GO AWAY....hasn't others already said your clueless!! I'll agree.

swingbuilder

Some have told me the same about you

All good hitters do NOT do the same thing--

They do what is natural to them and their talents--we can debate this forever so why get uptite about it

quote:

are you telling me a HS hitter is the same kid when he is in his junior year of college after his body matures?

A stronger body means more potential batspeed/raw power...so, he is not the same kid. This has no bearing on the mechanics that this hitter should use.

TRhit, i think you are under the assumption that it takes certain athletic ability and strength to have correct swing mechanics...I was taught this belief by my college hitting coach. I do not believe in this...I tell kids this all the time; you will never have Albert Pujols' ability to turn on a 95 mph fastball, won't have his batspeed, won't have his superior reaction time...but you can have his
basic swing if you really understand what he does and work at it.

Once a hitter throws off the restrictions that are placed upon them by being told that they are small, so they should "shorten" up their swing to the point that all atheltic ability is restricted, this is easier to acheive than most think. As I previously mentioned, fastpitch hitters are told that they are weaker than boys, so they must restrict their motions to compensate...and they get weaker...meanwhile, LPGA golfers are taught the same swing as men and average 260 yds on their drives...about 90% of men's distance...I don't see fastpitch hitters generating 90% of baseball hitter's power.

Trust us on this...Juan Pierre has the same basic swing as Jim Thome...The smaller athlete who is told he is different than the bigger guys would be best served learning this idea taught to swing...like the athlete that he is.

Final question...how would Albert Pujols do with his swing if he was 5'7 150? Would he get further with that swing or a Punch and Judy swing?

quote:

All good hitters do NOT do the same thing

I advise you to watch more video...

You are confusing style with absolutes. All hitters should not stand in the box or wiggle their bat the same way, obviously. This is style. However, when it comes to "absolutes"...

Although I am not a huge Mike Epstein proponent, let me use his 3 absolutes as a guideline. I do see these three absolutes in nearly all good hitters, (although I don't really see them happening in Epstein's hitter's to be honest) I will post these as a ideal hitter's absolutes, with the understanding that the terms are debatable, but, for simplicity's sake...

1. Rotation around a stationary axis after footplant.

2. Matching the plane of the pitch.

3. A hand path that follows the body's rotation, or "staying inside the ball" as he calls it.

90% of MLB hitters will follow these guidelines. If they are off in one area, it is by a small percentage. Example, I do see certain hitters who do not match the plane of the pitch...Cliff Floyd and Gary Sheffield come to mind...however, they are off by a small amount...a few percentage points...compared to ideal. So the biggest variance you'll see from these absolutes is probably less then ten percent...

Watch amateurs...they are all over the place. They will be way off base in all three categories by huge amounts. Not only are their styles different, but so are there absolutes...which is why they are amateurs. And some of this variance at the amateur level has to be chalked up to the fact that the absolutes are very rarely taught...

Level, its a lost cause with TR HIT. He is a troll and his purpose is to upset all threads. Check them out. Every thread he enters he creates cluelessness!

Was Hank Aaron a big guy? Was Mickey Mantle? Ryan Sandburg? Joe Morgan? Fred Lynn? Stan Muscial?

Level Path,

My son's travel ball coach was trying to get him to judy the ball to the left side and use his speed to get on base. he is a small to medium size player with exceptional speed.i told him to start looking for a new centerfielder if he wanted a judy swinger. he thinks because he is not huge he shouldn't be using a high level swing.

you have a PM

gogolf 18,

Nobody here can tell you what's best, nobody knows your kid like you do. However, consider this; if he is not ultra-fast for the next level of ball (college or pro) being a punch and judy hitter will not carry him forward. He may be fast for high school age but middle of the pack for college or pro. David Eckstein doesn't hit like Juan Pierre because he doesn't have the same speed. He has to drive it more often. Your coach may, or may not, be wrong but it is his team. Your son may sit.

If he is ultra-fast, consider the coach's decision.

Personally, I'd teach him rotational mechanics which will help him drive the ball. I'd have him work on driving the ball the opposite way on outside pitches. Teach him when to look for them, anticipate them and go with them. And I'd make him bunt, bunt, bunt. If he has a little speed, bats left and bunts well he will make your coach very happy when he needs a man on base.

Remember, nobody here can be sure of the real situation a player, parent or coach faces. Beware of blanket, catch all answers.

Good luck!