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Fudging the numbers

VectorVector1,000+ posts
According to some people I've spoken with, many parents/kids fudge their numbers to make them look more appealing to scouts/coaches. It can be anything from a increase in statistics, physical size, favorable editing of highlight video, grades, etc.

My old school way of thinking is not to exaggerate anything, and that honesty is the best policy. For instance my son is listed as 6' 4" and 190lbs. In reality he is almost 6' 5" and close to 6' 6" in cleats. He is also 197lbs the last time we weighed him. He naturally wants me to change the info, but he can drop 5 pounds in a weekend, and he is not yet 6' 5" barefoot.
Parents, coaches and others say "he is bigger than 6' 4" when they see him in uniform, but until he reaches 6' 5" barefoot, I question whether to list him any taller.

However I know parents who list their kid as taller and heavier for showcases and tourneys. For instance at the recent PG event, a friend of mine listed his MIF son as 6' 1" 185lbs even though he is only 5' 10" 165lbs. The kid is a good player, but I'd think a coach would assume it was a different kid (i.e. wrong # uniform) if he were watching him play in a game. Granted this is a big exaggeration compared with adding an inch or 5 lbs, but for some reason this father thinks he is doing the right thing by his son adding 3 inches and 20 lbs.

Another example is stats. I've heard more than one coach say any batting average or top MPH is to be taken with a grain of salt because parents/kids always claim higher numbers. My son has hit 88 on a Stalker and I never tell anyone he has done more. Yet based on how some coaches think most parents fudge the numbers, they probably think I added 3-5 mph to his top number. Of course I have it on video and in writing from the showcase he did it at, but it almost makes you feel as if you must carry around proof because of what other parents might be doing.

What I am wondering is how pervasive this practice is, and does it hurt or pay off?
Is it like steroids, to where if you do not get caught you get away with it, and maybe have a coach more interested in your kid. Sure he will want to watch him play and the kid will have to perform. However if it helped to get the coach interested in the first place, might it pay off compared with another kid who is being totally honest.

What is your take on this subject?

--- It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat. Theodore Roosevelt - April 23, 1910

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infielddadinfielddad10,000+ posts
Vector,
Ultimately, this is all about skill and talent.
Players/parents and others can fudge anything they choose to fudge.
Good college coaches and good MLB scouts evaluate and recruit based on the level of talent they see and project.
Once your son is in the process beyond HS, it becomes more and more obvious...either they have talent and produce or they don't. I fully appreciate that even in college some parents are wanting/demanding coaches see things that are not there for the coaches who see the player everyday.
In my view, fudging is not a favor to a HS player, especially if it creates expectations the player cannot fulfill.
The best we can do for our sons, in my view, is trust their talent, desire, heart and commitment.
Fudging suggests we don't have that trust. Making our sons out to be something they are not...nope, not something I support.
Last edited by infielddad
hokieonehokieone5,000+ posts
When my oldest was just a smidge under 6'4", he kept listing himself as 6'4". I pointed out that he was really 6'3 3/4". He said "Dad, it's baseball. I play in cleats. With cleats, I'm 6'4", and have never played bare-footed in my life."

He did grow that smidge...

A pitcher hits 89 once in his life. Otherwise, he normally throws 84-86. When asked what he throws, the answer invariably is "89".

The eye doesn't lie. Baseball people can see whether a guy is throwing 89 or 85. They can see the difference in a 6.6 60 yard dash and a 6.9.

Shoot it straight...but good luck with that cleats thing. It did make sense. Smile
GM Gingerbread Man500+ posts
Happens all the time around here where I live. My son's best friend is a little shorter than he is and weighs about the same and yet when we go to tryouts and showcases/camps his Mon lists him as 2 inches taller and ten pounds heavier. It drives me crazy. I have told him over and over that fudging stats is a bad thing in the long run as real and honest recruiters and scouts want real numbers, not fudged numbers. If you are fudging stats it is probably because you are not as good as you should be.

We had one tryout this last year where they made them take off their cleats and then measured and weighed them. My son's friend came over to the fence and said "Mom, they just told me I wasn't 6 foot". We laughed at the whole thing because for once they got his height right, that is the coach did! The biggest fudge for me is when parents and kids state as matter of factly that they throw a certain velocity or bat with a certain average and do so at the same time as making their peers to not look as good by giving false information about others.

We just played in a recent tournament where a kid we picked up was supposed to throw upper 80's. By the time the weekend rolled around and the word had gotten around that he could get it up to 95 mph! And then we played...and he pitched.. The truth is that he threw in the mid 80's and never came close to hitting even 90 let alone 95. Everyone has seen these types of stories. What is special though is to hear about aq kid who is like 6'3", 200 lbs, and throws 90mph and then you see him and he is really 6'5", 215 lbs and throws 94. That happens but is rare.
N ne14bb10+ posts
Vector,

First of all no reason to quibble over 7 pounds +/-.

As to his size--are you seriously worried?

It is not going to matter with your son whether you list him at 6'5" or 2 inches taller because frankly 6'5" is plenty enough size to gain interest IF (important IF) --he has the skills to go with the size.

I know a lot of equally tall players who are just that on the field--TALL with not much baseball skills to go with it. Sounds like your son has plenty of skills so worry less about whichever body size you choose to promote.

Many parents who fudge size are listing "projected" sizes. Some are blatantly lying to get their kid noticed and IMO--when they overexaggerate--they do their kid no favors. This is especially true with pitchers.

Biggest (pun intended) lie I ever saw was couple years ago when a travel team listed a 5'3" and 140 pounds soaking wet 18YO player on their website at 5'11" and 180 pounds. Forget projectability because this kids parents were the same size. When I asked the parents why they allowed such a ridiculous exageration--they said the coaches told them it would get their son more "serious" looks by colleges at showcases---for real!!!

Who was I to tell them no college coach I knew was going to ever take their son or his legit stats seriously with such an outrageous exaggeration.

BTW- the kid could play with the tallest and best of them which was why I questioned the need to make him into something he physically was not and would never be. He never did go onto play college baseball--go figure?
P Prime91,000+ posts
quote:
According to some people I've spoken with, many parents/kids fudge their numbers to make them look more appealing to scouts/coaches



I have not seen any recruiting or scouting decisions made from travel, or high school numbers. Great College stats (which are not quite so questionable) may get you noticed but pretty sure someone will need "to lay eyes on em" before any offers are made.
Last edited by Prime9
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
This is another example that parents shouldn't worry about what others do or don't do, but worry about their own player. It shouldn't bother anyone what others fudge if their own player has ability.

People fudge to get their son's attention, but reality is, coaches and scouts are pretty smart people.
VectorVector1,000+ posts
Hey guys, just in case some of you are reading too much into this, I am not suggesting that I want to start doing the same thing.
I only used my son as an example showing that even a slight exaggeration of a 1/4 inch is not something we do even though he is almost 6'5".
I also stated that the proof will be in the pudding when a coach/scout sees the kid.

I'm just wondering how pervasive this is, and if it might be helping to get a coach/scout initially interested?
Last edited by Vector
bballmanbballman10,000+ posts
I don't do it and wouldn't encourage anyone to do it. What is listed is what it is.

Story from this weekend. We went to a small showcase with around 15 college scouts there. My son pitched and hit 87 on 2 or 3 pitches against 4 batters. I was talking with another dad saying no one else had thrown that velocity yet. Another dad overheard us talking and said "I guess they are saving the harder throated for the end so the scouts will stay longer". I asked what his son threw and he said he throws 90. Well, his son pitched a little later and topped out at 84 and had a bomb hit off him. Point is, things will come back to haunt you if you stretch the truth. Like others have said, be honest and let talent speak for itself. BTW, if your son it 5'10 1/2", I wouldn't consider it lying to say he's 5'11". Just a round up. Going up 2 or 3 inches is lying and I don't think it should be done.

Same with grades. One phone call by a coach will uncover the truth. Then your and the players character is brought into play.
Last edited by bballman
cheapseatscheapseats1,000+ posts
I think those that end up fudging stats (height and weight) end up being exposed when scouts/coaches see them. I think it is pretty obvious when a young man is fudging his height by more than an inch.

I like the approach at the Stanford Camp .... one of the first things the coaches did at the camp was have the campers step on the scales and record their height (without shoes or cleats).

My theory is if you are fudging on stats you are probably fudging on other things as well and it will eventually catch up with you.
Last edited by cheapseats
Coach_MayCoach_May10,000+ posts
If I hear a kid is 6'4 190 and throws 88-90 touches 93 and I go to see him pitch. And then I get there and he is 6'2 170 and throws 85-87 touches 89 what will I think? Will I be more focused on what he actually does that day or will I be focused on the fact I was expecting one thing and got another? What else have I been told that is not correct or has been fudged?

At the same time if I am told one thing and that is exactly what I get I will be excited that I actually saw what I was told I was going to see. And if I am expecting 6'1 throwing mid to upper 80's and I see 6'2 plus throwing upper 80's to 90 I will be all over the guy. In other words I got even more than I expected.

The best policy period is to be honest. What do we want? We want people to be honest with us. If we don't believe they are being honest with us, then even when they are being honest we doubt them. The same goes for college coaches and scouts. I would much rather them get what they expect to get. And if they get even more than they expect well thats a big plus. The problems arise imo when you have them expecting one thing and they get less than they expected. Even though that less may still be good it will be a let down and the focus will shift to what they didnt get instead of what they were expecting to get.
Last edited by Coach_May
L LHPMom2012100+ posts
Sometimes it's not a deliberate lie. If your son was 6 foot the last time he was measured 6 months ago and he looks taller, you think maybe he's 6'1" now. And if he hasn't been gunned for four months but he's been pitching every week, maybe Dad genuinely believes Jr.'s added 3 mph.

And sometimes the opposite happens. My son's school takes a team to GA every summer. This year the roster listed the incoming seniors' height and weight as what they were three years prior. A lot of really unhappy folks.
Coach_MayCoach_May10,000+ posts
The people that matter can look on the field and see if a kid is 5'6 or 6'3. They do not need a program to tell them what their eyes tell them. And the bottom line is if they can play they can play. If they can play someone is going to check a little closer. And if they look like Tarzan but play like Jane no one is going to care how tall or physical they are. Its simply not going to matter.

Be honest. And let your kids play speak for itself. Thats all thats going to matter when its all said and done anyway.
Midlo DadMidlo Dad10,000+ posts
There are only two things that can happen with fudging the numbers.

First, people will stop believing anything you say.

Second, they will not want to be associated with you.

So it amazes me that people keep doing this. And it's not just players and parents. I've seen instructional facility coaches exaggerate skills and MPH as well, partly to keep the customer happy, partly to exaggerate the results they help their customers build in an effort to get still more customers.

Most colleges have contacts in various areas who provide information they trust. When they get a report on a kid, they call first and find out if he's really worth looking into. If they get positive info, the furthest they go based on that is to invest the time to see for themselves. If they don't get verification, they save themselves the trouble.

PG provides a similar, "bird dogging" service. They build their reputation by supplying information that ultimately proves reliable.

Give it up already. Nobody's fooled, and nobody's giving your son a scholarship based on his lying skills.

They save that money for law school. Smile
Coach_MayCoach_May10,000+ posts
Nice post Midlo. And the fastest way for you to become a person no one will listen to in the baseball world is to fudge numbers. If you want to help a kid be honest. If you want to hurt a kid and any other kids you could have helped fudge numbers. When you lose your credibility you are toast.

When you tell someone that Johnny is 6'2 and throws 90 and they show up and he is 5'11 and throws 83 good luck on getting anyone to come back and look at another kid. Good luck on your word helping anyone down the road. In fact an endorsement by you could be the kiss of death.

It is always the best policy to just be honest and if you don't know say you don't know.
bsbl247bsbl2471,000+ posts
I don't see a big deal in rounding your height up within reason, the next inch? My son is a little over 5'11", and when he laces up his cleats he's a legit 6'. I'm a little over 6'2", and I remember being listed at 6'3" in HS and college. I think you run into problems when you see the kids listed at 6', and they're obviously 5'9"...with their cleats on. As for fudging stats, velocity, 60 times, etc...the baseball community is small, and you learn that the farther your son goes in this game, the smaller this community actually is. Why would you want to inflate your numbers/stats to the point that a coach or scout would be disappointed when the truth is displayed? I've met a few members on this site, and I've communicated via PM's with other's, I know I can't inflate anything...heck, I've PM'd PGStaff a few times. My kid has participated in a few PG Showcases & Tournaments, and Jerry would know if I was "stretching" the truth...it's just not worth it, the truth always comes out in the long run!
cheapseatscheapseats1,000+ posts
Last year I saw a photo of my son with some of his teammates on their college website and I asked my son who the player was standing next to him and when he answered with the players name I said, "No way, the roster shows him at 6ft 4 and you are a full head taller than he is in the photo." He just laughed and said he thought the roster height was overstated for his teammate. From the eye ball test I think his buddy was off by about 3-4 inches. Smile
Last edited by cheapseats
VectorVector1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Coach_May:
At the same time if I am told one thing and that is exactly what I get I will be excited that I actually saw what I was told I was going to see. And if I am expecting 6'1 throwing mid to upper 80's and I see 6'2 plus throwing upper 80's to 90 I will be all over the guy. In other words I got even more than I expected.

The best policy period is to be honest. What do we want? We want people to be honest with us. If we don't believe they are being honest with us, then even when they are being honest we doubt them. The same goes for college coaches and scouts. I would much rather them get what they expect to get. And if they get even more than they expect well thats a big plus. The problems arise imo when you have them expecting one thing and they get less than they expected. Even though that less may still be good it will be a let down and the focus will shift to what they didnt get instead of what they were expecting to get.


Well that is what I am banking on when it comes to my son. He is not a flame thrower yet, so I am not going to make claims he wont live up to for probably another year based on his maturation level. Despite me wanting to help promote him, it is not in my nature to start out lying to people.

It just amazes me when I see others doing it, and big lies, not just adding one inch or a few pounds.

Like I said, I've seen a few kids highlight videos that make them seem like they never committed an error, and hit homeruns every single time at bat. One dad had the same homerun shot from different angles as if it was another game. I was thinking that he was not fooling anyone, but he thought it was a great video to promote his kid.

Personally, my sons highlight video is unedited for entire innings, so there is no doubt if he strikes out the side or not.

quote:
Originally posted by Midlo Dad:
So it amazes me that people keep doing this. And it's not just players and parents. I've seen instructional facility coaches exaggerate skills and MPH as well, partly to keep the customer happy, partly to exaggerate the results they help their customers build in an effort to get still more customers.



I agree. It is one thing for a dad or kid to lie, but for someone who needs to maintain a level of respect within a certain community, it is suicide. A former HS HC down here lost his reputation because he was promoting kids as more skilled than they really were. I think $$$ was his motivation, but it was penny wise and pound foolish.
Last edited by Vector
fillsfanfillsfan1,000+ posts
cheapseats, I had a similar situation a few years ago. Kids were 14 or 15 at the time and a father said to me his son just went to the doctors and he measured at 6'2". No way I thought. A few minutes later his son and my son come walking by and they are the same size. My son was about 5'10" at the time.

I guess the fact that he added the doctor to his story made it more believable. That wasn't the first or last time that father stretched the truth. Some people seem wired to not tell the truth about these things.

I don't know who these people think they are fooling other than themselves.
ClevelandDadClevelandDadHSBBWeb Administrator
quote:
Originally posted by shortstopmom:
Ability/Coach-ability/Potential/Attitude is what gets coaches/scouts attention,...fudge might get their attention,..but only when its sittin' pretty on top of several scoops of vanilla bean ice cream! Wink

That's funny Big Grin My personal recomendation is Chocolate Thunder from Down Under at Outback Steakhouse!

Seriously, this topic comes up quite often here on the hsbbweb. I am just like the next guy where the fact that people would even consider something like this bugs me. On the other hand, there is an internal contradiction to these feelings. If coaches go by what they see, why should it bug any of us if people fudge? Do coaches recruit bio-sheets or do they recruit the talent before them? If we say they recruit what they see, then we should be unconcerned with what people say on their bio-sheets.

Obviously, some people think that coaches are simple-minded creatures that are easily fooled by phony information listed on a bio-sheet. The rest of us know better however. If any of us simply put ourselves in the coach's shoes, we would know instantly that none of us (if we were the coach) would be naive enough to be fooled so easily or trivially. Since we know logically that this cartoonish notion of a coach does not hold any water, then it should therefore not annoy us when people fudge (i.e., lie). Pay no more mind to them because they are only hurting themselves.

Now go and enjoy the real chocolate treats!
Last edited by ClevelandDad
Baseballdad1228Baseballdad1228500+ posts
When I played high school basketball, we had a very nice announcer who volunteered at our home games. He would come into the locker room and ask the starters our heights. I was 6-3 and told him that. My friend, when asked, said 6-5, as a joke, but the announcer wrote it and moved on. When we were announced, Kenny came out, announced as a 6-5 guard. Kenny was 5-10 and standing next to me. I laughed, he laughed, the crowd laughed, even the announcer laughed after the game at being pranked.

Think pro scouts who make their livings on projecting talent can't tell a height and weight?

Tell the truth and then let talent and hustle talk for you after that.
Last edited by Baseballdad1228
08Dad08Dad1,000+ posts
A while back someone did an analysis on the listed heights at one of the major showcases. As I recall it was a nice smooth bell curve - other than the fact that no one was listed at 5' 11". There was a huge hole in the graph.

I suspect that the 5'11" guys all get rounded up to 6' 0".

As for MPH - I've always heard that Dadar readings are 7 MPH higher than stalkers...
MTHMTH10,000+ posts
I will occassionally tell my son that I heard so and so threw 92 the other night. He always shakes his head and says "Dad, there's High School 92 and there's College 92."

I remember when son's recruiting class was originally posted on the school's website there were 3 or 4 guys listed at 6'4" and one at 6'6". Before the roster was posted in the spring they were all actually measured. All of them "lost" at least 1 inch, and one lost 3. Several of the parents complained throughout that season how they had junior's height wrong.
ILVBBILVBB1,000+ posts
quote:
When you are invited to an official visit and you are meeting the coaches, they give you a good look.


My son visited a respected school in South Carolina. We met with the coach for about 15 minutes. When the meeting was over; my son stood up and the coach walked over to him and and "pat him" on both his arms (effectively checking out the merchandise). He then asked to take him on a personal tour of their facilities.

The reality was he recognized his size and strength and it meant something once he had met the person. Before that it was numbers on a piece of paper.
Last edited by ILVBB
C cmcconnell10+ posts
I vaguely remember this story from Donald Trump's book "The Art of the Deal." I think it has some merit in this situation:

"The Donald" won a bid for a construction project that he stated would cost the purchasing firm $160M and would take 18 months to complete. In the end, he completed the structure for $130M and in only 14 months. From the moment he put in the bid, he knew his cost would be around $90M and the construction time would be about 14 months.

Morale of the story: the firm Trump was working for thought they had gotten a steal and used him for larger subsequent projects. From the start, Trump had every intention of under promising and over delivering.

My Fr. year in college, in a team meeting during fall practice, the head coach had every pitcher fill out a questionnairre of sorts. One of the questions was, "What is your FB velocity?" I proudly wrote 89 (I had been told this by a former summer coach, but had no idea if it was true). He asked me, in front of my teammates, how fast I thought I threw. I responded, "89." His response: "I haven't seen you throw 1 pitch over 82 all Fall." Lesson learned!
CADadCADad5,000+ posts
Mine is 6'2 1/2" in the morning and 6'2" by noon in his barefeet. I don't believe in fudging but even so we'll probably let them list him at 6'3". Last year at the pre-season dinner at the school he was at the coach told everyone he was 6'4".

I kind of wonder if it is much easier for those of us who have sons who are taller to be a bit self-righteous about fudging on height.

Mine likes to say he's hit 89 and he has fairly often but only on a JUGS.

As far as the Trump story goes that's nice when you are certain you are going to win the contract but a whole different story when the low bidder is likely to win.
Last edited by CADad
C cmcconnell10+ posts
CADad - I agree regarding the low bidder.

In today's hyper-competitive athletic culture, parents/players who exaggerate stats, velo's, 60 times, etc have become more the norm than the exception. From a coach's/scout's eyes, a player has a far greater chance of making a positive impression by understating the numbers (Johnny tops out at 88, but has a mode of 84 - list 83-85 as FB velo), and performing at a higher level when given the opportunity, than vice versa; especially considering that the decision makers are likely going to assume that personally submitted numbers are slightly inflated anyway. Let them be pleasantly surprised when Johnny has a great day and lights up the gun; If he is just average on said day, then no one leaves disappointed.
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