Gaining Ground or Replacing ?

quote:

Originally posted by COACHBLU25:
Where do you feel the front elbow should be right before the throw?

Between the forearm and the upper arm.

When? Define "right before the throw."

Pointing toward 2nd and up shoulder height.

"right before the throw..."

Next to my side.

"slightly before right before the throw"

Somewhere between where I caught the ball and next to my side.

"longer before right before the throw"

Governed by whereever I caught the ball.

In other words, WHY IS ANYONE INSTRUCTING THE LEAD ELBOW TO A CATCHER.

I agree with Linear here. You should be bringing the glove back as you are pulling the ball from the mitt. The glove will go high to your ear and behind as you pull the ball. The elbow simply goes with it and is usually going to be hanging in a relaxed position. Get the throwing hand in the right position with the glove and you don't need to worry about the elbow.

Are you coaching gaining ground or replacing ?

Fellas

It's in your center.

Rotate from your center. Learn to do it and what your arms do is what they do to get the ball and transfer.

COACHBLU25,
I assume that you are talking about gaining ground in your movement toward second or replacing your feet. I keep it simple, with most of my players we replace the left foot with the right (which places the left in front), this is seen as a jump type of technique when done fast. We then stay low and throw as if we are in a slanted room. Stand up too early-hit your head. We go up and out which carries momentum toward second but does not actually move our body a great deal toward second.

I've watched pro catchers teach the gaining ground method (everything forward) as well as many major college coaches. The replacing of the feet according to them has momentum going one way to get set then forward to throw. They feel everything going forward is better and I agree. Right foot leads with the ankle to an area under your chin and the rest of the body squares in place. I guess its preference.

What would moving the right foot forward to under the chin do to a professional quarterback every time he said "go"? He would have the slowest release and wouldn't be in the league.

These guys can throw a football 70-80 yards with a load and throw.

Hmmm

If you need forward momentum to get off your best throw........you better try outfield.....or pitcher.

Please buy SteveE's DVD.

It will simply amaze you at what the center can do......and he teaches how.

I know I'm sounding like a religious fanatic. But, I've been able to do what he explains as a catcher all my life. Didn't know what I was doing but was doing it. Just like 99% of mlb hitters. Do it. Can't explain it.

Now, I do what I was doing as a catcher in hitting.......Oh My God.

Great for hitting and throwing.

As close to the holy grail as you'll find.

I'm asking a question on how coaches are teaching. Football QB is different than a catcher. I was both. My son is being taught what I don't agree with so I want to see what others teach.

Who is SteveD and do you have a link to his DVD site. I'd like to see it. I've viewed segments from mycoachonline that I agree with
plus a DVD from HQ4 baseball, Troy C. Yankee Minor league catcher. Neither feels the replacing is the best way. I like gaining ground and I believe many pros do as well although I've seen the other as well. Baseball is a mystery that were all trying to solve and this is just another segment.

thanks for input.

I was both too.

There is very little difference in the actual throw. Catcher raises out of squat, quarterback doesn't, but that's it. Both require extremely quick releases.

Neither can be quick if they move their right foot under their chin before they release.

If you think so, you need a new definition of quick. Because there is one different than yours.

And, if you think you need linear movement to throw....you need Englishbey.

As far as Steve's contact info is concerned, send me a PM and I'll give you phone and email address.

quote:

gaining ground or replacing

why argue about philosophies??
what are YOUR results?? mostly success or mostly failure??

My son has been exposed to both ways - I think he now does NOT gain ground, but I need to review some video & report back - he had success against FSU's Robinson so something must be working

my GUESS is that either can be effective, BUT, if one works better for your body & mechanics - - - just use it & don't beat the other guys over the head

JMO


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quote:

Originally posted by COACHBLU25:
Baseball is a mystery that were all trying to solve and this is just another segment.

thanks for input.

Just a different perspective - but I see no mystery in it at all.

I think - especially nowadays - there are many people out there selling stuff that want to make it appear so. Because it benefits their ability to market product.

But it isnt mysterious - and there is no one single answer to anything - whether it be pitching - hitting - or fielding.

A few basics - yes - but pretty much little has changed over the years IMO. And virtually noone talks about the different physical aspects of an individual player when discussing theory. That is - IMO - the biggest flaw of most of the theories I see presented.

On the other hand - I understand why this is avoided - the marketing concept.

You need to make people truly believe they need something - and you need to show them that you have the ONLY answer to fulfill their needs.

A careful study of the games best players will show you the huge variety in mechanics in all aspects of the game IMO.

Not to disagree with anyones opinion, but don't the feet need to move on inside pitches, low or high (to RHH)? The best catchers need to be able to receive and release in more than just one way depending on the pitch.

Probably the biggest problem we see in amateur catchers with slow pop times is they tend to stand up. The best catchers will stay low (top of head about a foot below their actual height). The only exception being the high pitch that causes them to stand up.

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:...but don't the feet need to move on inside pitches...

Absolutely not.

I assume you are talking about "handleable" pitches. Ones that are balls but don't require major body movements to get to them.

The farther a catcher has to reach left the harder the throw. No question. But, the more you move the feet the more difficult you make it.

I'm sure you've played burnt out before. You are trying to throw as hard as you can and release as quick as you can. You also have to do this while receiving the throw from your partner as you're walking in shortening the distance. What do you do when the throw is to your left? If you're playing properly, you are already into your throwing motion. Body has committed to throwing. So, you reach for the ball and bring it to the throwing side. Definately not as quick as a ball to your right side. But, definately quicker than moving your feet and then throwing.

PG,
You are right. You will need to change delivery depending on where the ball leads your body. I teach the jab step to all catchers (down the middle/inside) and the pivot (outside). The ball will naturally load your body on the outside pitch to a righty, so no need to move your feet. It will only put you off-balance more often than not.
The one thing I question is the "old-style" of taking the glove and ball to the ear. If you break down the throwing motion of all good catchers, they actually seperate their hands from the sternum and the glove and hand go opposite direction. If you take the glove all the way back to the ear, you never load your scapula which is a huge factor in throwing with leverage. 127 feet is not easy to throw without leverage. Thus you put a lot of strain on your throwing shoulder and increase the chances of shoulder problems.

quote:

Originally posted by Coach A:
...they actually seperate their hands from the sternum and the glove and hand go opposite direction...

Very good point. I call it "catching the ball deep". Let the ball travel to you. Don't go get it and bring it back. If you let it travel to you it will come right to your sternum (or very near it). The transfer occurs and the two hands go separate directions.

quote:

quote:

i agree with linear about catching the ball deep raking the ball to sternum or midline etc.the big difference in the way a catcher should throw is simply in his arm arc it should be flat and back not down around and back.
however i do teach to gain ground with the feet. generally replacing the feet the momentum of your body will be going towards 3rd base. a short, quick jab step with the right foot in front of the left will get you to close your shoulder to your target and movement towards 2nd. not many high school catchers have the arm strength to rocker step.

quote:

Originally posted by catamount36:...not many high school catchers have the arm strength to rocker step.

Would you consider a 2B, with right foot on the bag, turning a DP with no time problem (in other words he doesn't have to jump over the runner), to be using a rocker step technique?