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7 replies

Game-ending scenario...interesting argument

D DECK10+ posts
13u tournament semi-final, NFHS rules.
Score is tied, home team batting in btm of 7th. Bases loaded, 2 out. I am the plate umpire.
B4 hits grounder thru the hole to right field, and R1 scampers home with the apparent winning run... and immediately after crossing plate is mobbed by teammates. Nothing unusual, so far.
As pitch was on the way, R2 was taking a short, walking lead from 2nd base. When ball was hit, he froze, watched the ball go thru to the outfield...jumped up and down a couple of times, then went STRAIGHT to join the celebration at home plate. He never went anywhere NEAR 3rd base, and I saw this plain as day (wondering if anybody else noticed). I then watched to be certain R3 touched 2nd, and B4 touched 1st.
As defense was walking off field, their coach (from steps of 1st base dugout) shouted to me "Sir, you need to see this." He then yelled to F9 (who was just approaching 1st base) "Jared, do you have the ball?" Jared (looking confused, replied that he did. The coach said "run over and tag 3rd...right NOW." As Jared ran to 3rd, coach says to me "the runner from 2nd never touched 3rd." As soon as Jared tagged the bag, I signaled OUT and said "that runner's OUT, and the run is NO GOOD."
Offensive team's coach was in my face immediately; "You can't be serious...even if he didn't touch 3rd, the run crossed WAY before the out...that run has GOT to be good."
"Coach", I said, "we ALL know that no run can score on a play when the 3rd out is the result of a force play. You need to get your boys ready for extra innings." Coach kicked some dirt, and mumbled some choice words as he and his players headed back to the dugout, and I thought everything was over.
Coach stopped, turned back to me, and quite calmy said "just out of curiosity, would the run have counted if the last out had NOT been a force?"
UMP: "I dont like to answer hypothetical questions during the game, they serve no purpose...the key point to remember is that the 3rd out WAS a force."
COACH: "I understand, but just for my education, if it HADN'T been a force, the run was good, right?"
UMP: "Yes, as long as it crossed before the out."
COACH: "The runner from 1st; you saw him touch 2nd?"
UMP: "Yes."
COACH: " Where did HE go after he touched 2nd?"
UMP: "I'm not sure, my attention went directly to see the batter/runner's touch at 1st."
COACH: "What if I told you he that he continued to run all the way to 3rd before he went to join the celebration at home?"
UMP: "I can't comment on that, since I didn't see it."
COACH: "Well, he did. And that means he passed the predeeding runner on the basepath, and THAT ought to have been the 3rd out. That's not a force play, and it definately happened AFTER the run scored."

I stuck to my call...didn't feel I had any option, as I didn't see the 'possible' action he was referring to...but I must admit, he made a logical, and somewhat compelling argument. Opinions?
Don't tell me how hard the labor was; just show me the baby.
Last edited {1}
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jjkjjk500+ posts
I'm usually wrong on FED stuff, so won't put my foot anywhere I might taste it.
I better ask, FED is different than OBR?

4.09
(b) When the winning run is scored in the last half-inning of a regulation game, or in
the last half of an extra inning, as the result of a base on balls, hit batter or any other
play with the bases full which forces the runner on third to advance, the umpire
shall not declare the game ended until the runner forced to advance from third has
touched home base and the batter-runner has touched first base.
F 3FingeredGlove1,000+ posts
FED doesn't have that wrinkle. A similar play from the casebook:
9.1.1 SITUATION H: With R1 on third base, R2 on second base and R3 on first base and one out, B5 hits safely to right field. R1 scores, R2 misses third base and scores and R3 is thrown out at third base. At the end of playing action, time is called, the defense makes a proper appeal and the umpire declares R2 out. How many runs score? RULING: No runs score since the putout of R2 at third base was a force out and also the third out of the inning. (9-1-1d)

Anyway, the coach's clever argument doesn't fly, as illustrated by the above case play, and by rule 9-1-1d and e:
9-1-1 A run is not scored if the runner advances to home plate during action in which the third out is made as follows: .....
d. when a third out is declared during a play in which an umpire observed a base-running infraction resulting in a force-out (this out takes precedence if enforcement of it would negate a score); or
e. when there is more than one out declared by the umpire which terminates the half inning, the defensive team may select the out which is to its advantage as in 2-20-2.
Last edited by 3FingeredGlove
LB luv baseball5,000+ posts
This play goes back 100 years to Merckel's boner which cost the NY Giants a pennant. No runs score on when the 3rd out is recorded on a force or on the Batter at first.

The flip side argument that you see from defensive coaches all the time is when a runner fails to tag on a caught fly ball and is appealled. That play is always argued as a "force" when it is not.
N NavyUmp10+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by jjk:
I'm usually wrong on FED stuff, so won't put my foot anywhere I might taste it.
I better ask, FED is different than OBR?

4.09
(b) When the winning run is scored in the last half-inning of a regulation game, or in
the last half of an extra inning, as the result of a base on balls, hit batter or any other
play with the bases full which forces the runner on third to advance, the umpire
shall not declare the game ended until the runner forced to advance from third has
touched home base and the batter-runner has touched first base.


So the correct ruling is even if this exact play occurred under OBR the run would be nullified because 4.09b states when the umpire shall declare the game over and It does not super cede rule 4.09a ???
jjkjjk500+ posts
409a isn't superceeded. It's a different play.
b)is specific to the bottm 1/2 of a winning inning, with bases juiced.

If R3 can score, BR can reach 1st, R1 and R2 don't even have to try have time to start celebrating, then D certainly didn't have an opportunity for a force anyway. They lost, it's fair, it's square.

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