General scoring question

obrady,

IMO it has everything to do with HOW hard the shot to third was.

Ordinary effort is tough at third. If the ball was hot, base hit. Four assignments at third base. (1) shots down the line, (2) bunts, (3) pop ups in foul territory, and (4) the ball off the end of the bat slowly rolling to left side where a good third baseman cuts off the shortstop and throws the guy out. It's kind of hard to find a guy good at any of the two.

I have another scenereo I would like scorekeepers opinions on. A batter strikes out on a wild pitch that is dropped by the catcher, catcher has no trouble retrieving the ball and makes wild throw to first base. Is it considered a wild pitch or an error on the catcher?

First of all, was the initial problem the wildness of the pitch, or the catcher muffing it?

In any event, if the catcher has control of the ball and a fair opportunity to get the guy at first, I would score it E-2.

If it would have been bang-bang at first, I would score it either a WP or PB, depending on why the ball got away.

If the runner gets to 2nd, you would have an E-2 for that advancement. So you could have both a WP/PB and an E-2.

But if he only makes it to first, you only choose one of the three possibilities. One base means one element of blame in the scorebook.

There is a general admonition in the rules for scoring that when in doubt, you err to the side of scoring a run as unearned. If you extend this to say that doubts are resolved in favor of the pitcher generally, then the least favored decision would be to score it a WP. But any way you cut it, it's in the eye of whoever is your scorekeeper that day.

I see it pretty much as MidloDad with one exception. You said it was a wild pitch so that would eliminate the passed ball and leave only TWO options. Wild pitch or E-2. Of course a "wild pitch" is only recorded as a wild pitch if it results in the runner(s) advancing. In this particular case we have to assume the catcher recovered in time to throw out the runner with ordinary effort or this "debate" would not be discussed. Score it K for the strike out and E-2 (Throwing error on the catcher). That run will always be unearned if it happens to score. Other runs in the inning COULD also be unearned because of the E-2. Reconstruct the inning without the errors to determine which runs are earned or unearned.
Fungo

Both Midlo Dad and Fungo did a fine job, so all I’ll do is try to show y’all something that can be a lil’ bit tricky. Not necessarily in this situation, but just in general situations where a WP or PB much be decided.

Under OBR, if the pitch hit the ground before it reached HP, the C didn’t handle the ball, and that’s why the runner reached 1st, I have no discretion. It’s a WP and no error.

However, under OBR, if the pitch didn’t hit the ground prior to the plate, I have a little leeway in that I get to judge whether or not the ball was so high, so low, or so wide of the plate that it cannot be handled with ordinary effort by the catcher. But none-the-less, if the throw was the reason the runner reached, which in the scenario given it was, its an E-2.

The tricky part is about the pitch hitting the ground.

OBR WILD PITCHES_PASSED BALLS
10.15
(a) A wild pitch shall be charged when a legally delivered ball is so high, or so wide, or so low that the catcher does not stop and control the ball by ordinary effort, thereby permitting a runner or runners to advance. (1) A wild pitch shall be charged when a legally delivered ball touches the ground before reaching home plate and is not handled by the catcher, permitting a runner or runners to advance.

NCAAWild Pitch
Rule 10, SECTION 21. A pitcher shall be charged with a wild pitch when a legal pitch is such that a catcher cannot catch or control it with ordinary effort, so that the batter reaches first base or any runner advances one or more bases.
Note: Generally, a pitch that hits the ground before touching the catcher’s glove is
scored as a wild pitch.

LLI uses the exact same language OBR uses, and NFHS also includes any pitch that touches the ground in front of home plate. its in Rule 9-6, Art.1.

The way it works is, under LLI, OBR, and NFHS, if a pitch hits the dirt and runners advance, it has to be a pretty rotten throw not to be scored a WP. Also, it eliminates any question about the pitch being scored a passed ball. If the ball hits the ground prior to the plate, it can never be scored a passed ball except under the NCAA rules.

This is just one of the many differences in rule sets, and why I don’t officially score a game unless I have a rule book for the rule set with me.

I can see in my mind a 3rd strike curve that hits the dirt, the catcher does a good job of blocking the ball, but the batter takes off to first. If the catcher blocked the ball out in front of him and then throws away a routing play, I'd see it as an E2. (but then I guess the catcher DID control it)

quote:

Originally posted by obrady:
I can see in my mind a 3rd strike curve that hits the dirt, the catcher does a good job of blocking the ball, but the batter takes off to first. If the catcher blocked the ball out in front of him and then throws away a routing play, I'd see it as an E2. (but then I guess the catcher DID control it)

That’s the secret. The “entire” play has to be looked at. A lot of scorers have trouble with that concept.

A lot depends on one’s philosophy. FI, let’s say a batter hits a routine GB to SS, and he fields it with plenty of time to throw out the batter/runner, but then throws the ball away. Is it an E? Of course it is because: OBR 10.13 - An error shall be charged for each misplay (fumble, muff or wild throw) which prolongs …

But let’s change things a bit. This time the batter hits the ball deep in the hole, the SS dives for it and snags it, obviously an extraordinary play, then still has plenty of time to make an ordinary play throwing the ball to 1st, but tosses it in the dugout! Is it an E?

How about we change it even a bit more. The batter hits the ball to short. The SS makes the greatest play in history to field the ball, then makes a perfect throw to 1st in plenty of time to get he runner, but the 1B drops the throw. Is it an E?

Now we have philosophies start coming into play. If your philosophy is that if he hadn’t made the fantastic stop in the first place, the runner would have gotten a hit, you prolly wouldn’t charge the SS an E on the throw. But what if your philosophy is that you want to take the rule literally, and consider the fielding of the ball as one play, the throwing of it another, and the catching of the throw yet another. That means there’s at least 3 possible E’s on the one play, which IMHO, there is.

But trust me. There’s no right or wrong here! Its purely the judgment call of the SK, no matter how anyone might try to claim otherwise. And to be honest, I’ve scored lots of plays like that, and each one really is different.

I have another post that basically asks that same question; is a slightly difficult play that is botched, an error. Then you have to deceide, what is slightly difficult. It kinda like what your definition of "IS" is.

quote:

Originally posted by obrady:
I have another post that basically asks that same question; is a slightly difficult play that is botched, an error. Then you have to deceide, what is slightly difficult. It kinda like what your definition of "IS" is.

Here’s where our philosophies are gonna cause us to disagree. But take heart! Its just a disagreement, not the end of the world. Let’s see if we can get our philosophies more in tuned.

I look at the rule book a lot, and have never seen where “slightly difficult”, or even “difficult” is something that should be used as a standard. But there is a standard that’s all over the rule book. ORDINARY EFFORT

It can be found in each of the following rules.

OBR
Rule 2.0 – Infield Fly definition
Rule 2.0 - Wild Pitch definition
Rule 10.05(c)
Rule 10.05(d)
Rule 10.05(f)
Rule 10.06(c)
Rule 10.13 Note 2
Rule 10.14(b)
Rule 10.15(a)
Rule 10.15(b)

But here’s the problem. ORDINARY EFFORT isn’t defined! Since there’s no definition, every SK has to determine for him/herself what that ordinary effort is. Here’s how I do that.

First I accept that its going to be different for every level of ball. IOW, what ordinary effort for an 8YO coach pitch player would produce, is certainly different than what it would produce for a LLI Majors All Star. It would also differ for a HS Fr, HS JV, or HS V player, as well as college players.

It would also be different for a league made up of the best players at a certain level. FI, if you’re scoring for Perfect Game showcase tourneys, you’d expect the level to be above what you’d see in a regular season HS game.

Once you have the level determined, its just a matter of what you think an ordinary player you’d expect to see at that level would do with the play. Say you’re scoring a HSV game. Do you compare plays to the best SS in the city or the worst you’ve ever seen at that position? I don’t thing you should do that at all! I try to compare what I’m looking at, to the average player at that position I see. Not the good ones, not the bad ones, but the ordinary ones.

It can be really difficult if you happen to have a great player on the team you score for most often, because that might become your standard of “ordinary”. But ya can’t do that. or at least I don’t think you should.

Once you come to grips with all the assumptions you have to make, those decisions about “ordinary” become much easier for you, but are very often not appreciated by everyone else! The fans especially will drive you nuts, because they don’t read the rule book, so they expect you to apply the same standard to their 17YO HS son as they see applied to their 11YO. that’s when ya start developing that thick skin!

Scorekeeper,

How would you rule on the intial situation described in this post?

I hope you’re talking about the hot shot to 3rd post.

Without trying to sound evasive, what you described is not a whole lot to go on, but I’ll try.

3rd base is a position that takes a lot more watching than the other ones. FI, there’s a heck of a difference in my mind if he’s playing in front of, even with, or in the normal behind the bag position. If he’s behind the bag and the ball is within a large step either way and he just gives it the ol’ Toreador wave and doesn’t get dirty, chances are I’m gonna pop him. There’s a reason they call it the hot corner.

If he’s playing in front of the bag, I’m gonna tend to treat it the same way I treat pitchers, and that’s pretty leniently. If he’s just even with the bag and not moving, he better at least give it more of a try than a wave.

IOW, The situation has a lot to do with it.

What helps a lot is to watch players at practice. That’s when they’re getting hit a lot of balls, and typically not all of them are right at them. Watch a few practices and things get a lot easier.

I have to disagree that using what the better players might or would do, is a good approach. That isn’t what I interpret the guidelines as saying. What it does is change the value of “ordinary” to something extraordinary. I hate to use the word “average”, but “mode” is really what I see the standard as saying. Its what most players would do if confronted with the same situation.

No matter what happens, its always a guess, but it becomes a better guess the more times you see a play there. FI, someone scoring a HV V game who’s scored 100 games at the HSV level, will have a much better idea than one who’s only done a bunch of 12U games and mebbe 10 JV games.

The best answer is, whatever your standards, do your best to apply them evenly to both teams and all positions, and then let the chips fall where they may.

Hope that helps.

my 4 cents ..

#1 - base hit

quote:

Hot shot to 3rd

imo, from your description all I can do is score it a base hit - I'm not there to judge his skill level, figure out if something may have "froze" him (ie wrong pitch/location), wonder if he practices enough, etc -


#2 - WP, add E2 only if runner gets to 2B

quote:

A batter strikes out on a wild pitch

since you had declared it was a WP it IS a WP & subsequent action would not change it to something else - so it can't become a "third strike not caught" or a PB.
now - IF the catcher recovers that WP & still thinks he can make the play he accepts the risk of an E on a throw if the runner advances past the base he'd have gotten on the WP ..

quote:

Originally posted by Bee>:
#1 - base hit

quote:

Hot shot to 3rd

imo, from your description all I can do is score it a base hit - I'm not there to judge his skill level, figure out if something may have "froze" him (ie wrong pitch/location), wonder if he practices enough, etc -

That’s pretty typical of how parents and coaches feel, but most good SKs I know, look at the situation, and if the ball is anywhere close, would charge an E if he was playing back. But many times its because of where the SK is sitting compared to where the coaches or parents are.

I can’t tell you how many times I’ve sat behind the BS and see a ball go right under or over a glove, mark an E with no reservations, then have some coach or dad come screamin’ at me that the player never got anywhere near the ball.

Everything’s about perspectives.

Perspectives---- do you expect HS players to make the pplayers in the "bigs" make?


What is your perspective Scorekeeper?

quote:

Originally posted by Scorekeeper:

That’s pretty typical of how parents and coaches feel, but most good SKs I know, look at the situation, and if the ball is anywhere close, would charge an E if he was playing back.

Everything’s about perspectives.

You are killin me dude. LOL

I dont know any good scorekeepers - in fact - I dont know any scorekeepers at all.

And I am not very familiar with popcorn vendors either.

You are definitely right about one thing IMO - it is all about perspectives. LOL

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
Perspectives---- do you expect HS players to make the pplayers in the "bigs" make?
What is your perspective Scorekeeper?

I get the feeling I’m gonna pay for this, but I’m game anyway.

I expect kids in coach pitch to make the plays players in the “bigs” make. But, I don’t expect them to make those plays as often, as well, as easily, as consistently, or with the range.

Let me explain a little before anyone goes crazy.

If you go to any baseball practice and watch the team taking defense, you’ll eventually see some variation of the a “normal” OF rotation, and IF rotation. Coaches will hit balls to players and ask for throws that they fully expect the players understand, and are capable of executing. To put kids out there who they don’t feel are capable is to endanger the player and that’s just flat wrong.

But, the coach of the 8YOs might hit each player 10 balls, and ask for 10 other catches and 20 throws while expecting them to catch 2-3 out of 10 and make 5-6 good throws. Maybe at the 12U level the expectation is to catch and throw correctly 60% of the time, 14U’s 70% of the time, 18Us 90% of the time, college players 95% of the time, and of course pros 100% of the time.

So they’re all making the same plays, but their skills, size, and mental maturity make a heck of a difference. And of course the top players at any level do much better than the worst, and measurably better than the average player, as well as the worst players do measurably worse. But still, they’re all expected to make the same plays. Where they differ, at least in my mind, is what that average or modal player can as often, as well, as easily, as consistently, and with the range.

Now this is just me, but sometimes I’ll penalize a player for lack of effort, or reward them for extraordinary effort. How’s that work?

Well, if a player doesn’t even try to say, catch a ball I think most players would go after, whether or not he touches it or its hit hard, he’s liable to get dinged with an E. The determining factor would be if I think the play could have been made with ordinary effort. The rules give me that option.

I don’t happen to think the rules intend that players who make less than an ordinary effort get rewarded for not making a play.

I’ll stop now because I’m sure someone wants me to respond to make a point about something. But whatever people want to believe, its really difficult to try to explain how I might do something. Its like asking an ump how he’d make a judgment call.

The terrible thing about judgment calls is, they happen on the spur of the moment, and can only be based on what’s seen. Its really easy to roll the replay tape and point out the flaws, but when you’re trying to make a decision in a split second, all ya can do is your best.

THat's why I'm always open to input from people who might have had a better look.

I'm one of those who scores a pretty tight game too. I have gotten some; we’ll say, less than positive feedback on some of my scoring. I started being a little more demanding after helping out at a PG event and saw how they scored. I figured that if they expect a high school kid to be able to make a play then why shouldn’t I. The way I look at it, what good is it to lower the standards; it doesn’t really help anyone, only their pride. Would you rather have a kid with a fielding percentage of 90 when he should have been (in a competition for a job) at 80? I know some will say that the kids aren’t competing for a job, but some are and want the straight story. I think that the “take it easy” scoring really shows in batting averages and you know what I mean. I’ve seen a guy hit a dribbler to third with a guy on second, the third baseman pick it and threw it down the line, so the guy from second scored – drum roll please: and the scoring: a single and a RBI. So again I ask; Who did it really help?

quote:

Originally posted by obrady:
I'm one of those who scores a pretty tight game too. I have gotten some; we’ll say, less than positive feedback on some of my scoring.
That’s one of the crosses people who’s job depends on using a lot of judgment have to bear. Coaches and umps get second guessed and castigated all the time, so why wouldn’t SK’s too.

I started being a little more demanding after helping out at a PG event and saw how they scored. I figured that if they expect a high school kid to be able to make a play then why shouldn’t I. What you seem to have missed just a bit is, they generally have only the very best players at their tourneys and showcase. So, to hold players at those events to a higher standard than for just regular HS games is perfectly natural because the definition of what is [b*ORDINARY PLAY[/b* is different.

The way I look at it, what good is it to lower the standards; it doesn’t really help anyone, only their pride. Would you rather have a kid with a fielding percentage of 90 when he should have been (in a competition for a job) at 80? That’s fine as long as you aren’t raising the standards too high either. What to keep in mind is, as long as whatever stat you’re generating are for only your team, everything’s coo because everything will be relative. FI, the kid with the 4th highest BA on a lenient team will very likely still be the 4th highest on a very strict one. The problems come in when you’re the OSK for a game and your book doesn’t match the opposing team’s book, and when your team’s numbers are substantially much better or worse than everyone else’s in the league, city, state, or whatever. IOW, you can vary from the norm, but you can’t get too far outside of the box.

I know some will say that the kids aren’t competing for a job, but some are and want the straight story. I think that the “take it easy” scoring really shows in batting averages and you know what I mean.
Hey, I’m a firm believer in laying the cards out on the table, always have been and always will be. But, as much as I believe that, its still an undeniable truth that there are differences in levels, and within certain groups inside those levels, and the rule book is set up to allow for those differences.

Does anyone really get a benefit if you score a regular season HS Fr game like it was a PG showcase tournament where the 40 top players in the country are playing each other?

I’ve seen a guy hit a dribbler to third with a guy on second, the third baseman pick it and threw it down the line, so the guy from second scored – drum roll please: and the scoring: a single and a RBI. So again I ask; Who did it really help? We can all tell stories about “questionable scorekeeping. But most stories like the one you just described aren’t really from poor scorekeeping, but rather from not following the rules.

Its hard to do, but there’s nothing wrong with consulting the rule book every time there’s any question at all. Sometimes I do that during the game if there’s time, but sometimes I wait until I’m home and entering the numbers. That’s when I keep an electronic copy of OBR open in the background, plus either a hard or electronic copy of the rule set I’m scoring under.

In the end, the main thing I’m really concerned with is that whoever’s keeping score is above all else, consistent. IOW, they score both teams the same way, and score every game basically the same. After that, what’s important is the rules are followed.
If a SK is doing those 2 things, I’m pretty well cool with whatever their judgment tell them to put down.

I will add the PG event I was a part of wasn't one of their high-end events, but was part of the East Cobb tournament. They may have even been the teams that didn't qualfy for the play off games. To me, most of the teams that I saw had what I'd consider to be a pretty average travel/select teams.

quote:

Originally posted by obrady:
I will add the PG event I was a part of wasn't one of their high-end events, but was part of the East Cobb tournament. They may have even been the teams that didn't qualfy for the play off games. To me, most of the teams that I saw had what I'd consider to be a pretty average travel/select teams.

Don’t let PGStaff hear you say anything they put on isn’t high end!

But it really doesn’t matter that what you saw were only “average” select teams. Chances are, they were all pretty much made up of better players top to bottom than the normal HS team.

In addition, I’m gonna guess that for PG’s grading purposes, they try to keep everything at a higher standard. Unless I’m wrong, the players were still graded and put into their overall database. In order to keep everything equal, they have to use the same standard all the time, or at least attempt to.

de scorekeeper is supposed to "record" the game, not punish and/or reward players ---
AND ... I'm also dismayed that "It's" does not take the time to know the popcorn guy

man that popcorn is GOOD, the more butter the better

quote:

Originally posted by Bee>:
de scorekeeper is supposed to "record" the game, not punish and/or reward players ---

That’s very true, but the game has to be recorded within the guidelines of the rulebook. As long as “ORDINARY EFFORT” is the guideline and it isn’t defined, there’s gonna be all kinds of differing ideas about how something should be recorded. I suspect that’s why there’s only one OSK per game.

quote:

Originally posted by Bee>:

AND ... I'm also dismayed that "It's" does not take the time to know the popcorn guy

man that popcorn is GOOD, the more butter the better

Bee - LOL

Very true. However:

I do make it a point to know exactly where the "Italian sausage" guy is at all times during the game.